RED SOX vs Pats

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    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

     

    Also: the patriots dont even go for humble players anymore.  Ocho-cinco, Albert Haynesworth, Moss.

    And dont give me that bull about thats why they dont win anymore.  Because its not true.  Their reign of championships ended when they got arragant and thought that the Patriot philosophy was the reason why they were so successful.  The reason they stopped being successful was because Bruschi left, Vrabel got old, Seymour was traded, Ty Law left, Harrison retired, McGinest left.

    It was the players Jim....Its almost always the players.

     



    BB dealt Moss. Stroke of genius. You will be out-debated on this topic, so tone it down. You're wrong.

     

    Don't even think about getting into it.

    "Their reign" didn't end at all. They had to replace a slew of borderline HOF players at once and just went to a SB two YEARS ago.

    Maybe if Brady got back under Center and refrained from making crappy decisions or staring down his buddy Welker, that SB 46 would have gone better?

    The genius of BB is how he plays the market, always in control, leveraging the market into his favor.

    Read Pats Management Secrets 1 and 2 and get back to me.

    If NE had won SB 46 with Brady and Welker performing better in the 4th QTR, BB is sitting on building a completely separate dynasty. His second.

    It's all media rhetoric. The media doesn't like BB, so they make up stories or exacerbate lies (see Spygate, for example).

    Jealousy is an ugly, ugly trait.




    Im not debating that spygate was nothing more than proof of the phrase its lonely at the top.  Im not debating that Bill is a genious.  Im just saying that a) the Patriots didnt win solely because of Bill.  Im a pats fan too, and I find that insulting to Rodney Harrison, McGinest, Ty Law, Seymour, Corey Dillon.  Players who I avidly rooted for.  You tell me to pipe down , but then agree with me when you say the Pats had a bunch of borderline HoF players retire.

    Bill is a great coach no doubt.  Maybe the best ever.  But the best coach ever cannot win without players, and it seems that lately the Pats have had a hard time brining in players when it comes to: a) first round picks and b) free agents.

    We are like 12$ million under the cap right now.  Why didnt we go after Ed Reed?  I know hes up there in years, but he didnt get that much money.  Spend some money, and get that missing piece to put us over the top!  I want one more before Tom retires!!

     
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    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

     

    With the exception of Harrison and Dillon all the other guys were DRAFT picks. Wilfolk, Samuels, Willie, Law, Seymour Bruschi, I consider Vrabel a smart player not great player pick up who was used to maximize his abilities.

    The Pats in FA have gone after smart and good not great players most of the time. The supposed GREAT players they did get were not what was hyped with the exceptions as you noted.

    The RS have kept thier draft picks and are grooming them. Unlike football Baseball can do that. 

    The guys the RS picked up are smart and good not great players with whom you know exactly what you are going to get year in and year out.

    I stand by the fact that good hardworking players that both the Pats have and now RS have signed are the reasons why they are better and winning  teams.

    BTW the reason the Pats have not won the SB is not because of lack of players but IMHO due to two very lucky plays by the NYG. Just my opionion

     



    Agree overall. I'd add that if Gronk was healthy that would have helped too along with Welker catching that pass.

     

    To put down the Pats like Drewski did for making it sound like they've gone off the track since winning their third Super Bowl is a bit unfair because they've remained an elite team year after year and have been to two Super Bowls since then.

    I do agree with Drewski about the myth that the Pats won w/o stars. That bothered me when that was talked about during the first Super Bowl win. Players he mentioned were stars back then. Of course, it's the players that win.

    However, I think it's weak when fans use the "Belichick is too arrogant and that's why they haven't won anymore Super Bowls" line. So what is Belichick supposed to do. Run things the way fans think he should or how others do things. That's ridiculous. He has the way he wants to do things and is confident in what he does. Right or wrong, that's how you have to run things. Being confident in how you do things isn't arrogant. Never quite understood that.

    It wasn't Belichick who says the Patriots win because of the "Patriot Way." It's the brain-dead sychophants who say that. Belichick doesn't run things any different now than at the beginning of his tenure. He always traded around to amass draft picks but he also went after impact players in the draft when he's had high picks -- Seymour, Mayo. He always took chances with troubled stars -- Dillon, Moss, Haynesworth, Ochocinco. Sometimes they worked out, sometimes they didn't.

     

     

     

    Ever notice that McGinest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, etc, ALL got better BB arrived in 2000? 

    Uh huh.

    None of those players were stars, save for Ty Law who was very good the whole time.  He then emerged into the best CB in the NFL or about 5-7 seasons.

    Under BB.

    BB is a master at scouring for impact FAs who aren't the trendy, pricey options and he cultivates system talent, both drafted or undrafted.

    A genius. Not even close.

    Best GM of all time in the NFL.  Makes it look easy considering the salary cap and 53 players needing to be under it.



    Making your current players better is not the job of the GM.  Best coach of all time?  Ill give you that.  But not the best GM of all time. 

     
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    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

     

    With the exception of Harrison and Dillon all the other guys were DRAFT picks. Wilfolk, Samuels, Willie, Law, Seymour Bruschi, I consider Vrabel a smart player not great player pick up who was used to maximize his abilities.

    The Pats in FA have gone after smart and good not great players most of the time. The supposed GREAT players they did get were not what was hyped with the exceptions as you noted.

    The RS have kept thier draft picks and are grooming them. Unlike football Baseball can do that. 

    The guys the RS picked up are smart and good not great players with whom you know exactly what you are going to get year in and year out.

    I stand by the fact that good hardworking players that both the Pats have and now RS have signed are the reasons why they are better and winning  teams.

    BTW the reason the Pats have not won the SB is not because of lack of players but IMHO due to two very lucky plays by the NYG. Just my opionion

     



    Agree overall. I'd add that if Gronk was healthy that would have helped too along with Welker catching that pass.

     

    To put down the Pats like Drewski did for making it sound like they've gone off the track since winning their third Super Bowl is a bit unfair because they've remained an elite team year after year and have been to two Super Bowls since then.

    I do agree with Drewski about the myth that the Pats won w/o stars. That bothered me when that was talked about during the first Super Bowl win. Players he mentioned were stars back then. Of course, it's the players that win.

    However, I think it's weak when fans use the "Belichick is too arrogant and that's why they haven't won anymore Super Bowls" line. So what is Belichick supposed to do. Run things the way fans think he should or how others do things. That's ridiculous. He has the way he wants to do things and is confident in what he does. Right or wrong, that's how you have to run things. Being confident in how you do things isn't arrogant. Never quite understood that.

    It wasn't Belichick who says the Patriots win because of the "Patriot Way." It's the brain-dead sychophants who say that. Belichick doesn't run things any different now than at the beginning of his tenure. He always traded around to amass draft picks but he also went after impact players in the draft when he's had high picks -- Seymour, Mayo. He always took chances with troubled stars -- Dillon, Moss, Haynesworth, Ochocinco. Sometimes they worked out, sometimes they didn't.

     

     




     

    Its not about coaching, its about GMing.  Since Piolli left whoever occupies our GM seat is nothing more than a yes man.  Bill is the real GM.  And Im sick of being under talented at D and under the cap.  For goodness sake, spend some money!  How many years now have we been weak in the secondary?  Weak in the pass rush?

    I have no issues w Bills coaching.  I have an issue w him always trading down (except for this year, this year it made sense to), never going after expensive free agents, never making trades.  He dumpster dives for free agents, never picks in the first round.

    To think that you can build a championship calibur team based on fourth round draft picks and retreads is arrogant.  Again, nothing to do w his coaching, everything to do w his GM skills.

    And the reason why we remain elite even though he fails every year to bring in top level talent wears #12. 

    How many dollars are we under the cap right now?

     




    Listen, kid, I don't even know where to begin but you have so many facts wrong, it's not even funny.

     

    BB has ALWAYS BEEN THE GM HERE.  All you're doing is regurgitating the anti-BB rhetoric you hear on the radio waves via Felger and Mazz, ESPN, and whoever else knows they can make money off of slamming.

    Right from the horse's mouth from Pioli:

    "Bill called all the shots"

    I go by primary sources, not speculation or lies as a way to frame a premise by the media.

    BB is the head coach and GM.  Pioli, or now Caserio's role is more of an administrator type role in the infrastructure.  BB was and is always the GM.   They hired Floyd Reese

    A big reason why the 2008 and 2009 drafts didn't turn out so well (even though they aren't as bad as people claim) is because Dimitrioff left in 2008 (lead scout) and Pioli in 2009 (Dir, players personnel). Any GM that loses a lead scout and then a long time right hand like Pioli, that's bound to hurt the chemistry within the infrastructure.

    So, BB makes all the calls, but if you don't the chain of command here, you don't have a freaking clue.

    Not a clue.

    When BB brought in Floyd Reese in 2009, he was brought in to help groom Caserio.  Now, he's gone and Caserio is handling both contract type stuff and the Pioli role for BB.

    But, make no mistake BB has called all the shots and with Reese and Caserio in here since 2009 working together, there is a reason (partially) why the drafts have basically been As across the board since 2010.

    Even the UDFAs they brought in in those years have helped in some way.

    You're clueless!

    Next, there was a lockout with unknown CBA paramaters after 2011, so he WISELY locked up Brady, Mankins, Wilfork and Mayo, he had dealt Seymour in 2009 (now he has Nate Solder, arguably the best LT in the AFC - genius move), and he loaded up on picks in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 drafts.

    The fact you actually buy the logic of "he thinks he can means you sound JUST like Tony Mazz on 98.5 and are a moron like he is.

    How does that feel?

    Basically, what you wanted was what Jets just did which was toss draft picks left and right, overpay for FAs letting the market dictate to you and trade UP for absolute draft busts while handing them 50 million bucks. This is what you want? That's your approach? 

    BB does not "dumpster dive" for FAs either. Getting Waters, Anderson and Carter off the lockout in 2011 was utter genius and a big reason why they go to the SB.  If Carter doesn't get hurt in Week 15 in Denver, we porbably win the SB, but I suppose you want to blame BB for Carter getting hurt, too, right?

    I cannot stand dopey fans like you. You're easily led, clueless, lack IQ and would be Josef Goebbels wet dream if you lived Germany 80 years ago.

    Get your facts, do homework and then form an opinion. Don't be ignorant and be led by agenda driven morons like Tony Mazz/Felger/gasper or someone from ESPN who make money off of bashing BB and making off of dingleberries like you.

     

     



    Hey pal -- ease up. I agree with many of your points and disagree with some of Drewski's points concerning Belichick and the Pats. But he's one of the better posters on this board and deserves a lot more respect than you're showing.

    You know -- it's all right to have an opposing view w/o coming across like a complete jerk.

     
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    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    The fact you actually buy the logic of "he thinks he can means you sound JUST like Tony Mazz on 98.5 and are a moron like he is.

    How does that feel?

    Basically, what you wanted was what Jets just did which was toss draft picks left and right, overpay for FAs letting the market dictate to you and trade UP for absolute draft busts while handing them 50 million bucks. This is what you want? That's your approach? 

    BB does not "dumpster dive" for FAs either. Getting Waters, Anderson and Carter off the lockout in 2011 was utter genius and a big reason why they go to the SB.  If Carter doesn't get hurt in Week 15 in Denver, we porbably win the SB, but I suppose you want to blame BB for Carter getting hurt, too, right?

    I cannot stand dopey fans like you. You're easily led, clueless, lack IQ and would be Josef Goebbels wet dream if you lived Germany 80 years ago.

    Get your facts, do homework and then form an opinion. Don't be ignorant and be led by agenda driven morons like Tony Mazz/Felger/gasper or someone from ESPN who make money off of bashing BB and making off of dingleberries like you.



    First of all your personal attacks are beyond uncalled for, second of all you are speculating way too much about my position.

    How can I be a media guppy when the reason why I am fired up about this is because I think the media gives Bill too much credit?  Thats impossible. 

    Im just saying that coaches, any coach, gets far too much credit and far too much blame.  It generally comes down to the players.  Bill had some great players.  Sure, he coached them up.  Sure, bill is the best coach of all time, Im not a Bill basher.  But Bill cannot squeeze water from a stone.  He's just a human.  The talent had to be there for Bill to find it, he did.

    That's the job of a coach, and he is a great one.  The best one.

    But lately he's had a hard time replacing the players that he helped make great.  Its not his fault, they are very hard to replace players.  But he needs to replace the players.  Because even the best coach cannot win without the players. 

     
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    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    And it doesnt matter about the Patriots philosophy.  You cant win without the players, regardless of your philosophy.  Which has been my point all along.

    PS: Thanks Roy, much appreciated. 

     
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    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

     

    With the exception of Harrison and Dillon all the other guys were DRAFT picks. Wilfolk, Samuels, Willie, Law, Seymour Bruschi, I consider Vrabel a smart player not great player pick up who was used to maximize his abilities.

    The Pats in FA have gone after smart and good not great players most of the time. The supposed GREAT players they did get were not what was hyped with the exceptions as you noted.

    The RS have kept thier draft picks and are grooming them. Unlike football Baseball can do that. 

    The guys the RS picked up are smart and good not great players with whom you know exactly what you are going to get year in and year out.

    I stand by the fact that good hardworking players that both the Pats have and now RS have signed are the reasons why they are better and winning  teams.

    BTW the reason the Pats have not won the SB is not because of lack of players but IMHO due to two very lucky plays by the NYG. Just my opionion

     



    Agree overall. I'd add that if Gronk was healthy that would have helped too along with Welker catching that pass.

     

    To put down the Pats like Drewski did for making it sound like they've gone off the track since winning their third Super Bowl is a bit unfair because they've remained an elite team year after year and have been to two Super Bowls since then.

    I do agree with Drewski about the myth that the Pats won w/o stars. That bothered me when that was talked about during the first Super Bowl win. Players he mentioned were stars back then. Of course, it's the players that win.

    However, I think it's weak when fans use the "Belichick is too arrogant and that's why they haven't won anymore Super Bowls" line. So what is Belichick supposed to do. Run things the way fans think he should or how others do things. That's ridiculous. He has the way he wants to do things and is confident in what he does. Right or wrong, that's how you have to run things. Being confident in how you do things isn't arrogant. Never quite understood that.

    It wasn't Belichick who says the Patriots win because of the "Patriot Way." It's the brain-dead sychophants who say that. Belichick doesn't run things any different now than at the beginning of his tenure. He always traded around to amass draft picks but he also went after impact players in the draft when he's had high picks -- Seymour, Mayo. He always took chances with troubled stars -- Dillon, Moss, Haynesworth, Ochocinco. Sometimes they worked out, sometimes they didn't.

     

     

     

    Ever notice that McGinest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, etc, ALL got better BB arrived in 2000? 

    Uh huh.

    None of those players were stars, save for Ty Law who was very good the whole time.  He then emerged into the best CB in the NFL or about 5-7 seasons.

    Under BB.

    BB is a master at scouring for impact FAs who aren't the trendy, pricey options and he cultivates system talent, both drafted or undrafted.

    A genius. Not even close.

    Best GM of all time in the NFL.  Makes it look easy considering the salary cap and 53 players needing to be under it.

     



    Making your current players better is not the job of the GM.  Best coach of all time?  Ill give you that.  But not the best GM of all time. 

     



    Maybe not the best GM, but he's up there among the best. You have to look at the body of work and compare it to others who've had that sort of longevity -- calliing the shots for the same team for more than a decade.

    BB has had some whiffs in the draft and free agency. As for what players he should have re-signed and what players he hasn't that's tough. Look how many teams have gotten themselves in trouble with the cap. Sure the cap can be manipulated but teams still have gotten in trouble. So while I might have wanted him to keep Law or Milloy or McGinest or Seymour, I understand that you can't keep all the players and decisions have to be made.

    And as for signing an impact free agent -- look at the Redskins under Snyder and all the so-called impact free agents he signed and that hasn't worked out. So I agree that there have been times I wish he's targeted certain free agents, I also understand that nothing is guaranteed in terms of hte player making the expected impact.

     

     
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    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

     

    With the exception of Harrison and Dillon all the other guys were DRAFT picks. Wilfolk, Samuels, Willie, Law, Seymour Bruschi, I consider Vrabel a smart player not great player pick up who was used to maximize his abilities.

    The Pats in FA have gone after smart and good not great players most of the time. The supposed GREAT players they did get were not what was hyped with the exceptions as you noted.

    The RS have kept thier draft picks and are grooming them. Unlike football Baseball can do that. 

    The guys the RS picked up are smart and good not great players with whom you know exactly what you are going to get year in and year out.

    I stand by the fact that good hardworking players that both the Pats have and now RS have signed are the reasons why they are better and winning  teams.

    BTW the reason the Pats have not won the SB is not because of lack of players but IMHO due to two very lucky plays by the NYG. Just my opionion

     



    Agree overall. I'd add that if Gronk was healthy that would have helped too along with Welker catching that pass.

     

    To put down the Pats like Drewski did for making it sound like they've gone off the track since winning their third Super Bowl is a bit unfair because they've remained an elite team year after year and have been to two Super Bowls since then.

    I do agree with Drewski about the myth that the Pats won w/o stars. That bothered me when that was talked about during the first Super Bowl win. Players he mentioned were stars back then. Of course, it's the players that win.

    However, I think it's weak when fans use the "Belichick is too arrogant and that's why they haven't won anymore Super Bowls" line. So what is Belichick supposed to do. Run things the way fans think he should or how others do things. That's ridiculous. He has the way he wants to do things and is confident in what he does. Right or wrong, that's how you have to run things. Being confident in how you do things isn't arrogant. Never quite understood that.

    It wasn't Belichick who says the Patriots win because of the "Patriot Way." It's the brain-dead sychophants who say that. Belichick doesn't run things any different now than at the beginning of his tenure. He always traded around to amass draft picks but he also went after impact players in the draft when he's had high picks -- Seymour, Mayo. He always took chances with troubled stars -- Dillon, Moss, Haynesworth, Ochocinco. Sometimes they worked out, sometimes they didn't.

     

     




     

    Its not about coaching, its about GMing.  Since Piolli left whoever occupies our GM seat is nothing more than a yes man.  Bill is the real GM.  And Im sick of being under talented at D and under the cap.  For goodness sake, spend some money!  How many years now have we been weak in the secondary?  Weak in the pass rush?

    I have no issues w Bills coaching.  I have an issue w him always trading down (except for this year, this year it made sense to), never going after expensive free agents, never making trades.  He dumpster dives for free agents, never picks in the first round.

    To think that you can build a championship calibur team based on fourth round draft picks and retreads is arrogant.  Again, nothing to do w his coaching, everything to do w his GM skills.

    And the reason why we remain elite even though he fails every year to bring in top level talent wears #12. 

    How many dollars are we under the cap right now?

     




    Listen, kid, I don't even know where to begin but you have so many facts wrong, it's not even funny.

     

    BB has ALWAYS BEEN THE GM HERE.  All you're doing is regurgitating the anti-BB rhetoric you hear on the radio waves via Felger and Mazz, ESPN, and whoever else knows they can make money off of slamming.

    Right from the horse's mouth from Pioli:

    "Bill called all the shots"

    I go by primary sources, not speculation or lies as a way to frame a premise by the media.

    BB is the head coach and GM.  Pioli, or now Caserio's role is more of an administrator type role in the infrastructure.  BB was and is always the GM.   They hired Floyd Reese

    A big reason why the 2008 and 2009 drafts didn't turn out so well (even though they aren't as bad as people claim) is because Dimitrioff left in 2008 (lead scout) and Pioli in 2009 (Dir, players personnel). Any GM that loses a lead scout and then a long time right hand like Pioli, that's bound to hurt the chemistry within the infrastructure.

    So, BB makes all the calls, but if you don't the chain of command here, you don't have a freaking clue.

    Not a clue.

    When BB brought in Floyd Reese in 2009, he was brought in to help groom Caserio.  Now, he's gone and Caserio is handling both contract type stuff and the Pioli role for BB.

    But, make no mistake BB has called all the shots and with Reese and Caserio in here since 2009 working together, there is a reason (partially) why the drafts have basically been As across the board since 2010.

    Even the UDFAs they brought in in those years have helped in some way.

    You're clueless!

    Next, there was a lockout with unknown CBA paramaters after 2011, so he WISELY locked up Brady, Mankins, Wilfork and Mayo, he had dealt Seymour in 2009 (now he has Nate Solder, arguably the best LT in the AFC - genius move), and he loaded up on picks in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 drafts.

    The fact you actually buy the logic of "he thinks he can means you sound JUST like Tony Mazz on 98.5 and are a moron like he is.

    How does that feel?

    Basically, what you wanted was what Jets just did which was toss draft picks left and right, overpay for FAs letting the market dictate to you and trade UP for absolute draft busts while handing them 50 million bucks. This is what you want? That's your approach? 

    BB does not "dumpster dive" for FAs either. Getting Waters, Anderson and Carter off the lockout in 2011 was utter genius and a big reason why they go to the SB.  If Carter doesn't get hurt in Week 15 in Denver, we porbably win the SB, but I suppose you want to blame BB for Carter getting hurt, too, right?

    I cannot stand dopey fans like you. You're easily led, clueless, lack IQ and would be Josef Goebbels wet dream if you lived Germany 80 years ago.

    Get your facts, do homework and then form an opinion. Don't be ignorant and be led by agenda driven morons like Tony Mazz/Felger/gasper or someone from ESPN who make money off of bashing BB and making off of dingleberries like you.

     

     

     



    Hey pal -- ease up. I agree with many of your points and disagree with some of Drewski's points concerning Belichick and the Pats. But he's one of the better posters on this board and deserves a lot more respect than you're showing.

     

    You know -- it's all right to have an opposing view w/o coming across like a complete jerk.

     



    It is flat out insulting to my (and anyone's inteligence) to suggest BB hasn't been brilliant because anti-media heads who get paid to slam BB and drop in this rhetoric in the press.

     

    THAT is what's being a jerk.

    And, I am tired of it. This little ESPN induced business model that the Globe here has adopted it with Tony Mazz and 98.5.  That approach makes them money, but it's downright scary it has brainwashed basically half of the Pats fanbase to the point, those clowns have NO IDEA how incredible BB has been and how historical this is.

    Brady and Welker choke in the 4th qtr of SB 46, so that's on BB?   No way. Absolutely not.

    Look at Drewski. Totaly corrupted and brainwashed into thinking he's right, when he's been factually incorrect about everything he said.

     




    You will not even listen to my points.  You are being too black/white. 

    I am not saying Bill isnt a genious.  Im just saying that a philosophy alone will not get you far.  You need the players.  I dont see why I have to keep repeating this.  All you are doing is repeating the same insults.

    There isnt a coach in the world who can win without the playoffs.

    The media does not give enough credit to the playoffs.  Ty Law , Willi McGinest + others were awesome.  I was arguing with Jim that the Patriots have been great because of some kind of philosophy that causes them to go after good,not great players.  I was arguing that you need great players.

    Then you came in, out of nowhere, with insult after insult, telling me I am some kind of Bill basher.  Im not a Bill basher.  I just think that Law, Harrison, McGinest, Dillon do not get enough credit.

    I think that you are seeing the argument that you want to see in my posts because that is the debate that you want to have.  But it aint me, man.

    The only knock on Bill that I have is that I think he;s had so much success getting the most out of the players that he does have and finding players in late picks that he's a bit too quick to trade down and doesnt think he needs to retain players that he should retain.

    He traded down w/ Chris Gamble on the board.  Letting Ty go was a mistake.  Hes the best coach ever, sure...And Im not saying the league is littered with better GMs either....Im just saying that hes had a hard time replacing the players that left.  ANyone would, they were great players.

     
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    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    Disagree on all counts.

    First of all, back in the Patriots hayday, they did have stars.  And I'm sick of hearing the nonsense that they didnt.  Willy McGinist was one of the best pass rushing DE's of his time.  He could play OLB or DE, but his combination of speed/skill made him a unique talent.

    Rodney Harrison was one of the smartest players on the field.  As a Safety (the Defenses last line of defense) this is extremely important.

    Ty Law was a ball-hawk and played his best games when it counted. 

    Wilfork is awesome and worth of a massive contract.  Samuel gave us great years.  Seymour was one of the best run stuffing DE in the game.  Bruschi and Vrabel were great linebackers solidifying the middle of the D.

    Corey DIllon was super talented, and carried us to a super bowl.  Brady is one of the best ever.

    The whole, "Patriots were great because they didnt go after stars, but rather played like a team" is such a myth.  Just because there players didnt get a ton of media attention does not mean that they werent unique talents.

    Too much credit goes to the "Patriot philosophy" and not enough credit goes to the actual players.  If the Patriots philosophy was the reason they were so good, then how come the team hasn't been able to duplicate the success since most of the key players left.

    Sorry Jim, nothing against you, I just hate this myth.  Bellicheck is way too arrogant these days.  Thinking he can trade down and turn players into stars.  You cant teach talent.  And the Patriots havent had nearly as much talent as they did since they won all of those superbowls.

    Sports more often than not come down to who has the most talent.  Its the best players that bring home the glory, not the nicest guys.  Even Cherrington has disputed this myth.  When asked point blank, he said, "personality is something we will consider, but we are trying to build a winning baseball team....Not a fraternity.  Our focus, primarily, was on talent."

     



    The most talented team does not win a championship every year.  I don't think anyone disputes that you need talent to win, but you are underselling good team chemistry and a good locker room.  Why is it that every year in almost every sport teams that look great "on paper" don't pan out?  You don't think the "2004 idiots" were given a little extra push beyond their talent alone?

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

     

    With the exception of Harrison and Dillon all the other guys were DRAFT picks. Wilfolk, Samuels, Willie, Law, Seymour Bruschi, I consider Vrabel a smart player not great player pick up who was used to maximize his abilities.

    The Pats in FA have gone after smart and good not great players most of the time. The supposed GREAT players they did get were not what was hyped with the exceptions as you noted.

    The RS have kept thier draft picks and are grooming them. Unlike football Baseball can do that. 

    The guys the RS picked up are smart and good not great players with whom you know exactly what you are going to get year in and year out.

    I stand by the fact that good hardworking players that both the Pats have and now RS have signed are the reasons why they are better and winning  teams.

    BTW the reason the Pats have not won the SB is not because of lack of players but IMHO due to two very lucky plays by the NYG. Just my opionion

     



    Agree overall. I'd add that if Gronk was healthy that would have helped too along with Welker catching that pass.

     

    To put down the Pats like Drewski did for making it sound like they've gone off the track since winning their third Super Bowl is a bit unfair because they've remained an elite team year after year and have been to two Super Bowls since then.

    I do agree with Drewski about the myth that the Pats won w/o stars. That bothered me when that was talked about during the first Super Bowl win. Players he mentioned were stars back then. Of course, it's the players that win.

    However, I think it's weak when fans use the "Belichick is too arrogant and that's why they haven't won anymore Super Bowls" line. So what is Belichick supposed to do. Run things the way fans think he should or how others do things. That's ridiculous. He has the way he wants to do things and is confident in what he does. Right or wrong, that's how you have to run things. Being confident in how you do things isn't arrogant. Never quite understood that.

    It wasn't Belichick who says the Patriots win because of the "Patriot Way." It's the brain-dead sychophants who say that. Belichick doesn't run things any different now than at the beginning of his tenure. He always traded around to amass draft picks but he also went after impact players in the draft when he's had high picks -- Seymour, Mayo. He always took chances with troubled stars -- Dillon, Moss, Haynesworth, Ochocinco. Sometimes they worked out, sometimes they didn't.

     

     




     

    Its not about coaching, its about GMing.  Since Piolli left whoever occupies our GM seat is nothing more than a yes man.  Bill is the real GM.  And Im sick of being under talented at D and under the cap.  For goodness sake, spend some money!  How many years now have we been weak in the secondary?  Weak in the pass rush?

    I have no issues w Bills coaching.  I have an issue w him always trading down (except for this year, this year it made sense to), never going after expensive free agents, never making trades.  He dumpster dives for free agents, never picks in the first round.

    To think that you can build a championship calibur team based on fourth round draft picks and retreads is arrogant.  Again, nothing to do w his coaching, everything to do w his GM skills.

    And the reason why we remain elite even though he fails every year to bring in top level talent wears #12. 

    How many dollars are we under the cap right now?

     




    Listen, kid, I don't even know where to begin but you have so many facts wrong, it's not even funny.

     

    BB has ALWAYS BEEN THE GM HERE.  All you're doing is regurgitating the anti-BB rhetoric you hear on the radio waves via Felger and Mazz, ESPN, and whoever else knows they can make money off of slamming.

    Right from the horse's mouth from Pioli:

    "Bill called all the shots"

    I go by primary sources, not speculation or lies as a way to frame a premise by the media.

    BB is the head coach and GM.  Pioli, or now Caserio's role is more of an administrator type role in the infrastructure.  BB was and is always the GM.   They hired Floyd Reese

    A big reason why the 2008 and 2009 drafts didn't turn out so well (even though they aren't as bad as people claim) is because Dimitrioff left in 2008 (lead scout) and Pioli in 2009 (Dir, players personnel). Any GM that loses a lead scout and then a long time right hand like Pioli, that's bound to hurt the chemistry within the infrastructure.

    So, BB makes all the calls, but if you don't the chain of command here, you don't have a freaking clue.

    Not a clue.

    When BB brought in Floyd Reese in 2009, he was brought in to help groom Caserio.  Now, he's gone and Caserio is handling both contract type stuff and the Pioli role for BB.

    But, make no mistake BB has called all the shots and with Reese and Caserio in here since 2009 working together, there is a reason (partially) why the drafts have basically been As across the board since 2010.

    Even the UDFAs they brought in in those years have helped in some way.

    You're clueless!

    Next, there was a lockout with unknown CBA paramaters after 2011, so he WISELY locked up Brady, Mankins, Wilfork and Mayo, he had dealt Seymour in 2009 (now he has Nate Solder, arguably the best LT in the AFC - genius move), and he loaded up on picks in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 drafts.

    The fact you actually buy the logic of "he thinks he can means you sound JUST like Tony Mazz on 98.5 and are a moron like he is.

    How does that feel?

    Basically, what you wanted was what Jets just did which was toss draft picks left and right, overpay for FAs letting the market dictate to you and trade UP for absolute draft busts while handing them 50 million bucks. This is what you want? That's your approach? 

    BB does not "dumpster dive" for FAs either. Getting Waters, Anderson and Carter off the lockout in 2011 was utter genius and a big reason why they go to the SB.  If Carter doesn't get hurt in Week 15 in Denver, we porbably win the SB, but I suppose you want to blame BB for Carter getting hurt, too, right?

    I cannot stand dopey fans like you. You're easily led, clueless, lack IQ and would be Josef Goebbels wet dream if you lived Germany 80 years ago.

    Get your facts, do homework and then form an opinion. Don't be ignorant and be led by agenda driven morons like Tony Mazz/Felger/gasper or someone from ESPN who make money off of bashing BB and making off of dingleberries like you.

     

     

     



    Hey pal -- ease up. I agree with many of your points and disagree with some of Drewski's points concerning Belichick and the Pats. But he's one of the better posters on this board and deserves a lot more respect than you're showing.

     

    You know -- it's all right to have an opposing view w/o coming across like a complete jerk.

     



    It is flat out insulting to my (and anyone's inteligence) to suggest BB hasn't been brilliant because anti-media heads who get paid to slam BB and drop in this rhetoric in the press.

     

    THAT is what's being a jerk.

    And, I am tired of it. This little ESPN induced business model that the Globe here has adopted it with Tony Mazz and 98.5.  That approach makes them money, but it's downright scary it has brainwashed basically half of the Pats fanbase to the point, those clowns have NO IDEA how incredible BB has been and how historical this is.

    Brady and Welker choke in the 4th qtr of SB 46, so that's on BB?   No way. Absolutely not.

    Look at Drewski. Totaly corrupted and brainwashed into thinking he's right, when he's been factually incorrect about everything he said.

     

     




     

    You will not even listen to my points.  You are being too black/white. 

    I am not saying Bill isnt a genious.  Im just saying that a philosophy alone will not get you far.  You need the players.  I dont see why I have to keep repeating this.  All you are doing is repeating the same insults.

    There isnt a coach in the world who can win without the playoffs.

    The media does not give enough credit to the playoffs.  Ty Law , Willi McGinest + others were awesome.  I was arguing with Jim that the Patriots have been great because of some kind of philosophy that causes them to go after good,not great players.  I was arguing that you need great players.

    Then you came in, out of nowhere, with insult after insult, telling me I am some kind of Bill basher.  Im not a Bill basher.  I just think that Law, Harrison, McGinest, Dillon do not get enough credit.

    I think that you are seeing the argument that you want to see in my posts because that is the debate that you want to have.  But it aint me, man.

    The only knock on Bill that I have is that I think he;s had so much success getting the most out of the players that he does have and finding players in late picks that he's a bit too quick to trade down and doesnt think he needs to retain players that he should retain.

    He traded down w/ Chris Gamble on the board.  Letting Ty go was a mistake.  Hes the best coach ever, sure...And Im not saying the league is littered with better GMs either....Im just saying that hes had a hard time replacing the players that left.  ANyone would, they were great players.

     

     

     

     

    Chris Gamble?  Oh my. Oh no!  BB didn't pick Chris Gamble!  The horror!

    You called BB "arrogant" for trading back. You said it!  Now, you're trying to backpedal away from what you said above?  I took you on here because everything you wrote was patently false or regurgitated Tony Mazzesque rhetoric. You sound just like him.

    Tony Mazz: "BB wants to trade back or pick lower profile prospects to show everyone just how smart he is".

    Do you have any idea how arrogant you or MAzz sound saying that? You think BB is just toying with draft picks just because?  You're insane. Tony Mazz and you.

    Also, genius is spelled "genius". Ironic you're trying to lecture me and nitpick BB's incredible cap era approach that other franchises try to copy and you can't spell genius correctly.



    Law and McGinest were better players when BB coached them up and when BB added those FAs in 2001 and 2003:

     

    Bryan Cox

    Anthony Pleasant

    Bobby Hamilton

    Mike Vrabel

    Terrell Buckley

    Mike Compton

    Roman Phifer

    2003:

    Rodney Harrison

    Ted Washignton

    Poole

    Colvin

    Who do you think is the GM making these moves to help the team be better and in turn, making Law and McGinest BETTER?

    Law and McGinest, and Bruschi, were good players pre-Belichick, but much better once BB brought his formula here as a GM. He ditched bloated contracts like Lane's or Rucci's (and Bledsoe's) and be built a dynasty for crying out loud!

    Don't you get that the salary allocations on the market are key to bringing in MORE quality on a 53 man roster as opposed to just 1 or 2 pricey free agent splashes?

    For example: Miami Dolphins and Ravens this year will not be as good as people think. They swapped out too many starters all at once.

    See 2011 Packers or Eagles or 2012 Saints are examples.

    BB was building his base back through the draft in 2009, 2010 and 2011 because of the lockout.  Once he dealt Seymour in early Sept of 2009, that was the sign he was going through the draft to get his base back.

    You and other fans like you just didn't know how BB was going to do it or they weren't wanting to be patient. And, they were in the SB in SB 46!  Why? BB's brilliant coaching and patchwork maneuvering in the secondary, after GREAT FA moves and drafts! 13 points through 57 minutes is pretty darn good!  Thanks to Brady and Welker and later an out of gas D, the Pats go home losers.

    EVERY GM has misses. Every one. BB aruably has the LEAST!  Least! Many Pats fans have posted other supposed "great GMs" whiffs recently on the Pats board. Read it and weep.

    This is a media crusade to smear BB. Period.

    Don't take the bait.

    I am not looking at it black and white at all! You are, dude. You are. 

     




    From an outside view I see what both sides are saying. But if your going to insult someone for misspelling a word, you better make sure you havent done the same...I find it ironic and funny that you misspelled the word intelligence.

     

    "It is flat out insulting to my (and anyone's inteligence) to suggest BB hasn't been brilliant because anti-media heads who get paid to slam BB and drop in this rhetoric in the press."

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    Everyone has misses but its harder to miss in the first round. Its very hard to replace all the talent that we've lost. You just gave a list of acquisitions but stopped in 2003. That was 10 years ago. Roy is right, you have to look at the body of work. But Im not saying that he stinks. Im just saying that we need a couple of more players and we need them soon because Tom doesnt have too many years left. I was patient, but our window to win one more with Tom, isnt going to be open any more. Right now, we need to go all out to find the players that will put us over the top. Maybe we have them, maybe we dont. We'll see. But im not the Bill bashing media guppy that you make me out to be. This debate wasnt even about Bill until you brought him into it.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     Now, you're trying to backpedal away from what you said above?  I took you on here because everything you wrote was patently false or regurgitated Tony Mazzesque rhetoric. You sound just like him.

    Tony Mazz: "BB wants to trade back or pick lower profile prospects to show everyone just how smart he is".

    Do you have any idea how arrogant you or MAzz sound saying that? You think BB is just toying with draft picks just because?  You're insane. Tony Mazz and you.

    Also, genius is spelled "genius". Ironic you're trying to lecture me and nitpick BB's incredible cap era approach that other franchises try to copy and you can't spell genius correctly.



    Finding misspellings in a hasty post or resorting to personal attacks is poor form.  You've done both.  Manipulating my position to strengthen your own argument is also poor form.

    I did not say that Bill trades down to show how smart he is.  That is rediculous.  You hate Tony Mazz so much that you are trying to manipulate my position into Mazz's so you can argue with him through me.

    Yes I said Bill is arrogant, but I never said that he trades down just to show he is smarter.  That's Mazz arguement and its rediculous.

    I think that he is arrogant because he thinks that he can find gems in the later rounds or coach up mediocrity to the point where he doesnt need high picks or tip top talent.  Thats my position and its nothing close to Mazz's.

    Im not saying hes a bad coach and im not saying hes a bad GM.  Im saying hes the best coach ever and a very good but imperfect GM.  I understand that everyone misses but:

    Chad Jackson

    Bethel Johnson

    Deon Butler

    Whilhite

    Wheatley

    Ron Brace

    Merriweather

    Adrian Kremm

    Shawn Crable

    Brandon Tate

    Taylor Price

    Laurence Maroney

    Jermaine Cunningham

    Eugene Wilson

    And there were some FA misses too (Beisel, Haynesworth, Adalius Thomas)...

    Im not saying he's a bad GM , just that he's imperfect. 

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    Most of us misspell words because we don't proofread. 

    As for the OP, I don't agree.  First, I think fielding a competitive NFL team is much harder than an MLB team.  Second, the three best moves by Ben C had nothing to do with getting smart players--he dumped three expensive players; he pretty much stayed with the starters he had, adding only Dempster; and he got a manager who would work well with the pitching staff.  Third, I think we went after guys who are good on the field and in the clubhouse, which has helped this team jell pretty quickly.

    I do agree Victorino and Napoli are smart players and probably Ross too. 

     

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: RED SOX vs Pats

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    Can you believe this kid?  He just spent 3 pages of spouting facts and inconsistencies all over the place.



    Rusty you need to relax a little my man.  I get enough of this over on the Pats forum.  I happen to think that a lot of BB's work as GM is undervalued by portions of the fanbase, but your posting style in this thread is just going to turn people off.  This isn't Babe or TexasPat or the Colts or Giants trolls you are arguing with.  Drewski is a reasonable poster here even if you happen to disagree with him.

     
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