Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    I do think Lester has the stuff to be an ace.  His interview certainly went a long way in showing he gets it, which is a far cry from Beckett's attitude.  Of course, pitching against college kids means nothing, but he seems to be in top condition, which bodes well for his game.  The key to Lester's season, is how he responds to "not getting calls," & the subsequent men on base situations that result from this.  This was a huge problem with Lester all last year!!!  In fact, I believe it was his biggest problem.  At the root of it?  I believe was an air of entitlement, cultivated by the likes of Beckett & Lackey.  Two pizz poor role models for a young pitcher!  Beckett???  His pride, stubbornness, entitlement mentality & arrogance will either sink him, or push him toward the Ace status he will never again attain.  I would settle for a strong # 2 with Beckett!  Even a strong # 3.  There's no changing Beckett, so I really hope he pushes himself to "shove it up our arsses," as it is clear he would like to do.

    As for the calls that this could be the strongest 1 - 5 if Bard, Dike-K, Buch, Lester, & Beckett all come through????  PLEASE! SAVE IT!!!!  I get the temptation.  I've even tried that line on my wife in my more desperately hopeful moments, in the run up to Spring Training:)   Tooooo many if's!!!  It's certainly something to hope for though :)   Either way, it's sure great to have the boys back at it!!!!  God I love this team!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]An Ace pitches 7+ and throws 200 innings in a season... oh and k's about 200.... sorry we do not have an Ace.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    How about the ability to pitch in big games?

    And FWIW, Pedro was the best pitcher I ever saw and he didn't average 7 IPs.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from YOUKILLUS20. Show YOUKILLUS20's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]FWIW, Lester was my biggest disappointment last September.  Beckett is a genius, but with a renegrade perspective.  Tito treated Lester like a son.  September is a lifetime ago for me, but if anyone let down Tito, it was Lester.  The 1-3 September didn't help either. Beckett is still the ace by a fair margin.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

     Playing on the same team, for the last four years Beckett is 48-29 3.67, while Lester is 65-32 3.37....Who's the Ace again??
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? : notin, I agree the IP have dropped in the last few years for most starters but we should get an average of six solid innings from our starters without giving up as many runs in return.  Lackey, Wake, Wieland etc. made it very difficult on our offense and pen last season. I think this is the one crucial area we can improve on that could make or break our season. 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    I'm not arguing their ERA's, but Wake did average 5.97 innings per start last year (137.1 innings in 23 starts) and Lackey averaged just over 5 2/3 (5.71 innings per start, 160 IP / 28 starts).  It would certainly be nice to get an extra out or two out of their rotation spots, but it may not be overly realistic with the main variable being how Bobby V will manage the starters.  Even saving an inning a week for the pen would add up over the course of a full season, especially if the starter are keeping us in those games so it's saving the better pen arms instead of the mop up guy.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    As for Dice-K, let's hope a West coast team scoops him up for marketing purposes!  I never want to see the guy pitch here again.  Besides his pathetic nibbling & HIGH pitch counts, his lack of "stuff" is self evident.  He also has a glaring character issue after coming back from the off season Championship series in Japan, where he blew his arm out, then tried to pass it off as a Spring Training injury.  There have been any number of these obfuscatory situations with this guy, only to be followed up by revelatory statements back in Japan.  Then he plays the language barrier card??  Cut the sh! t!  It's definitely a character thing!  I pray Miller can progress & step up!  I think the way folks turned on Dice-K played a part in Lackey's pathetic attitude & excuses.  All this trickled down to Beckett & Lester! 

    It became a bunker mentality, "screw them" situation with the pitchers last year.  Let's hope neither Dice-K or Lackey ever take the field with the Sox again!  Not being negative!  Just how I saw it!  Love the team, just not these two!  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]Hm. I think Lester CAN be an ace like Verlander.
    Posted by ma6dragon9[/QUOTE]

    Oh, Puh-Leeeeze!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? : Oh, Puh-Leeeeze!
    Posted by SoxFanInIL[/QUOTE]

    Verlander career numbers:

        W-L      PCT.    ERA     Ks    WHIP  K/9
    107-57      .652    3.54   1219   1.19   8.3      7 seasons


    Lester's:
    76-34      .691     3.53     894   1.29   8.4      6 seasons


       Oh Pu-Leeze  ...  LOL

      Lester's career numbers stand up VERY WELL v. Verlander's  


      PS ... all that AND overcame cancer.

              Puh-Leeeeeeez!!!!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? : Verlander career numbers:     W-L      PCT.    ERA     Ks    WHIP  K/9 107-57      .652    3.54   1219   1.19   8.3      7 seasons Lester's: 76-34      .691     3.53     894   1.29   8.4      6 seasons    Oh Pu-Leeze  ...  LOL   Lester's career numbers stand up VERY WELL v. Verlander's     PS ... all that AND overcame cancer.           Puh-Leeeeeeez!!!!
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]

    Lester has had one of the more impressive starts to a pitcher's career ever. He has admitted to making some poor decisions last year. Given what I've seen of him before, his talent, and what he's been saying all off season...I think this will be a MONSTER year for Lester. He may crack 20 wins for the first time, and he WILL get 200+ Ks again (182 last year, for reference, 14 pitchers league-wide K'd 200+ last year, 16 in 2010 when Lester was 4th with 225, and Verl was 6th with 219 in 12 more innings).

    Only 2 'non-aces' from both years combined too: Jonathon Sanchez in 2010, and Anibal Sanchez in 2011. Apparently either you have the surname of Sanchez, or you're really, really good when you strike out 200+.

    He is an elite pitcher already, but the fans around here know he can be even better.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? : Verlander career numbers:     W-L      PCT.    ERA     Ks    WHIP  K/9 107-57      .652    3.54   1219   1.19   8.3      7 seasons Lester's: 76-34      .691     3.53     894   1.29   8.4      6 seasons    Oh Pu-Leeze  ...  LOL   Lester's career numbers stand up VERY WELL v. Verlander's     PS ... all that AND overcame cancer.           Puh-Leeeeeeez!!!!
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]

    Sorry Yaz - I don't think you can just post stats on this argument. CC Sabbathia has better numbers than both of them, but in my eyes, Verlander is the best pitcher in the game.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? : Sorry Yaz - I don't think you can just post stats on this argument. CC Sabbathia has better numbers than both of them, but in my eyes, Verlander is the best pitcher in the game.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    Be quiet, Jess.  Or I'll get Zeus to zap you with something thart resembles a lighting bolt....



    ;op


    hehee
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? : Be quiet, Jess.  Or I'll get Zeus to zap you with something thart resembles a lighting bolt.... ;op hehee
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]

    That's OK - I hired Thor as a bodyguard.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]An Ace pitches 7+ and throws 200 innings in a season... oh and k's about 200.... sorry we do not have an Ace.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    I've said it before, I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face (or you dunderheads come around)...Jon Lester is an ace!

    He has yet to truly breakout as a perennial Cy Young contender, but that's not the definition of an ace. A pitcher who gives you quality innings, who you're confident to matchup with another team's ace, who isn't afraid of taking the ball in big games, who is consistent year in and year out, and who pitches well even when he doesn't have his best stuff...that's an ace.

    BurritoT wants 200 innings? Lester has AVERAGED 203 over the last four seasons. BurritoT wants about 200 K's? Lester has averaged 196 over that same time period (take out 2008, which was before his breakout strikeout seasons, and he's averaged 211 over the past three years). Take a look BurritoT, Lester meets your own fairly shallow criteria! And don't ask for 7+ innings a start in the AL East, that's absurd...most 7+ inning pitchers pitch in the NL. Even Roy Halladay had multiple seasons once he became an ace in which is failed to hit 7 IP/GS, and CC Sabathia failed to hit that in his first two seasons as a Yankee.

    Simple numbers...here is what Lester has averaged, again over the past four years: 32 GS, 16-8 record, 203 IP, 196 K's, 3.33 ERA, 1.241 WHIP, and a 135 ERA+. Year in and year out, he's been steady, productive, durable, and a winner. His numbers may not be the very cream of the crop, but much of that is due to degree of difficulty (pitching in the AL and in the AL East). Sabathia, an undisputed ace, put up ERAs of 3.22, 3.21, and 3.83 in his final seasons with the Indians, then in the NL had a 1.65 ERA, came back to the AL and has seen ERAs of 3.37, 3.18, and 3.00. Lester has been better than you think, even though he still has room for a breakout.

    Finally, someone compared Lester to Verlander, and that's very appropriate. Over the same four year time period, Verlander's average numbers look like this: 34 GS, 18-10 record, 229 IP, 225 K's, 3.45 ERA, 1.152 WHIP, and 125 ERA+. If you look at his average numbers in the four years PRIOR to his breakout last season, his ERA rises to 3.80, his WHIP to 1.238, average innings and K's down to 217 and 208, respectively, and his ERA+ was only 117. Between Verlander's greater innings eating capability, and Lester's greater per-inning quality, it's safe to say they've been about as valuable as each other. Is Verlander not an ace?

    P.S. Lester has a career .691 winning percentage. That's the third highest of all time. What a bum...
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    There all different definitions for the subjective term ACE:

    Some define it as the top 30 pitchers (1 per team).  If you adopt this definition, we have two.

    Some define it as being truly elite.  If you adopt this definition, we have zero.

    Personally, I dont like using such subjective terminology.  We have two top 25 pitchers, neither of which are top 5.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? :  Playing on the same team, for the last four years Beckett is 48-29 3.67, while Lester is 65-32 3.37....Who's the Ace again??
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    Beckett, by a fair margin.

    Who do you want starting on opening day v Verlander?  I happen to like Lester a lot, but I have more confidence when Beckett is on the mound.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]There all different definitions for the subjective term ACE: Some define it as the top 30 pitchers (1 per team).  If you adopt this definition, we have two. Some define it as being truly elite.  If you adopt this definition, we have zero. Personally, I dont like using such subjective terminology.  We have two top 25 pitchers, neither of which are top 5.
    Posted by Drewski5[/QUOTE]

    I do something similar, but the top 30 are #1s, and the top half of the #1s are aces.  Since 2007, Beckett is #9 in WAR and Lester 11th.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? : Well, we don't -- until we do. I agree with the innings but care less about the Ks. To me, an ace will start 32 to 34 games (in this era of 5-man rotations) pitch 225-plus innings and have a sub-3.00 ERA, although I won't quibble if a guy goes 20-5 with a 3.20 ERA with the above stated starts and innings. The Ks are just decoration. Who cares if he Ks 250 but has an ERA near 4.00.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]


    Of course roy the k's don't matter.... if someone drives in 100 runs does it matter if he did it with 50 homers or 50 doubles? However an Ace absoltely must go 7 innings regularly and pitch 200+ innings.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?

    In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Refreshing..do we finally have our ace? : That's OK - I hired Thor as a bodyguard.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    See?   The rivalry flouriishes!!!!

     

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