Rethinking 2013

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Rethinking 2013

    Perhaps I have been too harsh on young Ben being blinded by my thinking only star players can help this team win. I suppose I jumped on the entitlement bandwagon, as I believe many have since 2007, including the players.

    A complete makeover was necessary for this team and I now believe that's what Ben is trying to do. IMO, 3 key elements have been missing since our championship in2007, which are; heart, character, and chemistry

    The players that Ben has acquired are by no means stars but I think these may be the guys that can restore some of those 3 intangibles. These guys also want to prove that they still belong and can contribute in a big way.

    I have failed to be a team player and for that, I apologize. I would love to see another 2004 season.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The best chance for a 2004 is to acquire J. Upton, to replace some of the impact that Manny had. Then, will need to hope that Ortiz isn't already washed up. Then, will need to hope that Lester and Buch and Napoli and Dumpster earn their money. A lot of ifs, but 2004 was a miracle comeback so dreaming is better than being realistically despondent about 150 million plus payroll that has nothing mroe than "bubbly playoff team" expectations.

    [/QUOTE]

    Too many "ifs" even if we get Upton.

    2013 is over already.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Perhaps I have been too harsh on young Ben being blinded by my thinking only star players can help this team win. I suppose I jumped on the entitlement bandwagon, as I believe many have since 2007, including the players.

    A complete makeover was necessary for this team and I now believe that's what Ben is trying to do. IMO, 3 key elements have been missing since our championship in2007, which are; heart, character, and chemistry

    The players that Ben has acquired are by no means stars but I think these may be the guys that can restore some of those 3 intangibles. These guys also want to prove that they still belong and can contribute in a big way.

    I have failed to be a team player and for that, I apologize. I would love to see another 2004 season.

    [/QUOTE]

        I'am a little in shock but tip my hat to you for looking on the positive side.

        It was clear the Sox needed to make changes. Beckett had lost interest along with his pride. Crawford showed playing for Boston was too much pressure and Agon's power numbers were no where to be found. That and he complained about everything including the lack of days off.

        All the players they have added are high character types.

        Players the younger players should be around.

        Boston is still a big market club and I totally expect them to perform as such under Ben.

        Ben can't be expected to turn it into a success overnight. He will given time.

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The best chance for a 2004 is to acquire J. Upton, to replace some of the impact that Manny had. Then, will need to hope that Ortiz isn't already washed up. Then, will need to hope that Lester and Buch and Napoli and Dumpster earn their money. A lot of ifs, but 2004 was a miracle comeback so dreaming is better than being realistically despondent about 150 million plus payroll that has nothing mroe than "bubbly playoff team" expectations.

    [/QUOTE]

    Too many "ifs" even if we get Upton.

    2013 is over already.

    [/QUOTE]

    We don't need Upton.

    Here are the "ifs" necessary for a playoff-contending team:

    IF Papi is healthy

    IF Lester and Buchholz pull it together

    IF Ellsbury stays healthy

    IF bionic Lackey is better than pre-op Lackey

    Those are big ifs, but it is not really that many.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from iamme17. Show iamme17's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    the sox are 4th best in talent in this division and behind the A's,angels and rangers talent-wise but with a payroll near the magic tax number.There ain't gonna be baseball playoffs in beantown for longer than most fans expect  and long long summers of complaining.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    I agree.

    This will be the most lovable last place team in baseball, with their 3 intangibles, heart , character and chemistry.

    It's a funny thing about posters here....I am not directing this at the O.P. ( who I believe is one of out good ones) or at anyone in particular.

    Most of this board was quick to trash Manny Ramirez, Johnny Damon and Curt Schilling after their departure and various escapades in their personal lives. But , Schilling had "heart", Manny was a "character, and Damon was key to "chemistry as the leader of the so-called "idiots."

    But beyond that , these 3 had talent.

    It takes more than heart, desire and chemistry. You need a fair amount of talent. You need All-Star calibre players as the backbone of your team , them fill in around them with "character."

    Duquette built the backbone of our championship team in 2004, with Pedro, Manny, Lowe, Varitek, Garciaparra ( who was key because he became a vital bargaining chip in the trade that brought Orlando Cabrera).

    This team lacks a "backbone" or "skeleton." Before you start adding character , you need to have a certain amount of talent , that this team doesn't have....especially pitching depth. One injury to a key pitcher and this team is finished.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    I guess we will find out once the 2013 season begins.  

    How many of us picked the Oakland A's (a $55 million payroll and a bunch of rookies) to win the AL West and the O's (they did not have a winning record since 1997) to make the playoffs?  

     

     

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Perhaps I have been too harsh on young Ben being blinded by my thinking only star players can help this team win. I suppose I jumped on the entitlement bandwagon, as I believe many have since 2007, including the players.

    A complete makeover was necessary for this team and I now believe that's what Ben is trying to do. IMO, 3 key elements have been missing since our championship in2007, which are; heart, character, and chemistry

    The players that Ben has acquired are by no means stars but I think these may be the guys that can restore some of those 3 intangibles. These guys also want to prove that they still belong and can contribute in a big way.

    I have failed to be a team player and for that, I apologize. I would love to see another 2004 season.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good Ike.  You will have more fun this way.  this club, unlike the incarnations of recent years, is going to be fun to root for.  Why?  because they will have the heart and character that have been in short supply. Whether that translates into chemistry and/or wins remains to be seen.  But I like these underdogs*.

    I wouldn't expect 04.  04 had heart, character and these intangibles, yes.  But they also had Schill and Pedro at the top of the rotation, Manny in the middle, and some heavyweight mofos.  This club is gonna have to be of the "sum greater than the parts" mold.  But, as we have seen in recent years, that mold can take you to the promised land.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I agree.

    This will be the most lovable last place team in baseball, with their 3 intangibles, heart , character and chemistry.

    It's a funny thing about posters here....I am not directing this at the O.P. ( who I believe is one of out good ones) or at anyone in particular.

    Most of this board was quick to trash Manny Ramirez, Johnny Damon and Curt Schilling after their departure and various escapades in their personal lives. But , Schilling had "heart", Manny was a "character, and Damon was key to "chemistry as the leader of the so-called "idiots."

    But beyond that , these 3 had talent.

    It takes more than heart, desire and chemistry. You need a fair amount of talent. You need All-Star calibre players as the backbone of your team , them fill in around them with "character."

    Duquette built the backbone of our championship team in 2004, with Pedro, Manny, Lowe, Varitek, Garciaparra ( who was key because he became a vital bargaining chip in the trade that brought Orlando Cabrera).

    This team lacks a "backbone" or "skeleton." Before you start adding character , you need to have a certain amount of talent , that this team doesn't have....especially pitching depth. One injury to a key pitcher and this team is finished.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes Zill, Pedro and Manny were a huge part of the success. You may laugh but I really thought it was a mistake not to bring back Bay. Probably my biggest concern going forward is the defense. Hopefully they can play well enough for that not to be an issue.

    I really think Victorino will play a huge role if we are to be successful, perhaps Drew as well (although I really wanted to see Iggy at SS; don't think he is as offensively deficient as most on here claim).

    Anyway, if this team believes in themselves, (and the coaching will be key in making that happen) it is possible to be successful. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    Ali, much respect for rethinking your position. 

    I largely agree with your new stance and I find it seriously refreshing you would rethink your views like that. 

    However, I would agree with Softy that to "relive 2004" we need more than the chemistry/character you have cited, was also need a couple of star players - maybe not Upton but.... Chemisty isn't enough because when you start to lose a bunch of games due to inferior talent, chemistry falls apart and the blame game starts....

    Which is why I agree with Moonslav that a repeat of 2004 won't happen in 2013. 

    But: part of not being an entitled fan is accepting you don't get a championship every year. I do believe the Sox will either work on a farm type homegrown star or sign one or two in the years to follow. And a team that is serious about competing with a great work ethich will be refreshing to watch in 2013, even if we don't win a championship. Also: pure Manny Ramirez type slugging is not as important to winning now as it was in the heart of the steroids era. So, you never know.

    I believe with Farrell as manager the the roster that is being assembled it will be an enjoyable season. 

    That said I'm still not confident in the upper echelons of this organization right now. 

    But: I'm willling to keep an open mind and respect you for doing the same. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The best chance for a 2004 is to acquire J. Upton, to replace some of the impact that Manny had. Then, will need to hope that Ortiz isn't already washed up. Then, will need to hope that Lester and Buch and Napoli and Dumpster earn their money. A lot of ifs, but 2004 was a miracle comeback so dreaming is better than being realistically despondent about 150 million plus payroll that has nothing mroe than "bubbly playoff team" expectations.

    [/QUOTE]

    Too many "ifs" even if we get Upton.

    2013 is over already.

    [/QUOTE]

    We don't need Upton.

    Here are the "ifs" necessary for a playoff-contending team:

    IF Papi is healthy

    IF Lester and Buchholz pull it together

    IF Ellsbury stays healthy

    IF bionic Lackey is better than pre-op Lackey

    Those are big ifs, but it is not really that many.

    [/QUOTE]

    We need more than just these 5 big "ifs", but tell me the odds of flipping a coin and getting 5 heads in a row?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The best chance for a 2004 is to acquire J. Upton, to replace some of the impact that Manny had. Then, will need to hope that Ortiz isn't already washed up. Then, will need to hope that Lester and Buch and Napoli and Dumpster earn their money. A lot of ifs, but 2004 was a miracle comeback so dreaming is better than being realistically despondent about 150 million plus payroll that has nothing mroe than "bubbly playoff team" expectations.

    [/QUOTE]

    Too many "ifs" even if we get Upton.

    2013 is over already.

    [/QUOTE]

    We don't need Upton.

    Here are the "ifs" necessary for a playoff-contending team:

    IF Papi is healthy

    IF Lester and Buchholz pull it together

    IF Ellsbury stays healthy

    IF bionic Lackey is better than pre-op Lackey

    Those are big ifs, but it is not really that many.

    [/QUOTE]

    We need more than just these 5 big "ifs", but tell me the odds of flipping a coin and getting 5 heads in a row?

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, we need more than these 5 big ifs.  In order for any team to succeed, it needs relative success from all strata on its roster.  no doubt.  But these 5, given the moves of the off-season vis-a-vis addressing performance needs, are the keys (in my mind).

    And I dont see these ifs being as binary as coin flips.  I suppose lackey might be 50/50, and, sure, health is always uncertain.  But given respective histories, I see these ifs as likely positive outcomes.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The best chance for a 2004 is to acquire J. Upton, to replace some of the impact that Manny had. Then, will need to hope that Ortiz isn't already washed up. Then, will need to hope that Lester and Buch and Napoli and Dumpster earn their money. A lot of ifs, but 2004 was a miracle comeback so dreaming is better than being realistically despondent about 150 million plus payroll that has nothing mroe than "bubbly playoff team" expectations.

    [/QUOTE]


    Nonsense.  Alibi forget to mention the 4th element:  Pitching.  The Sox won in 2004 and 2007 because they had dominant #1 and #2 pitchers in the rotation, followed by better than league average guys pitching in the 3-5 slots with very few innings lost to injury.  On top of that they had a dominant closer and excellent setup men that shortened every game to 6 innings.  If the Sox led after 6 innings they almost always won.  And if they were tied or close, they very often pulled out a win late in the game as the bullpen almost always kept them in the game long enough to do that.  Justin Upton would help on neither of these accounts.  A trade for an ace would take care of the first, and Ben's signing of Uehara and trade for Hanrahan were attempts to take care of the second. 

    We shall see how successful he was in regards tpo how successfully he addressed the second account.  And I will hold out hope that he will still work out a trade to work on the first, since signing Dempster only took care of the depth issue, not the dominance issue.  With Salty, Aceves, Iglesias, Cecchini, Wilson, Morales, Mortenson and Doubront all being somewhat redundant, perhaps there is enough there to work out a deal for a dominant starter who is on the last year of a contract, commands a pretty steep price and/or looks to be unsignable, and isn't essential to the long term success of the receiving team (Lincecum might fit this description, depending on how SF feels about his signability). 

    Dickey would have fit this bill, but Ben stayed away and let a rival grab him.  I suspect that at the end of the 2013 season Dickey will have better numbers than any of the current Sox starters (except perhaps Buchholz).

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to SpacemanEephus's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Perhaps I have been too harsh on young Ben being blinded by my thinking only star players can help this team win. I suppose I jumped on the entitlement bandwagon, as I believe many have since 2007, including the players.

    A complete makeover was necessary for this team and I now believe that's what Ben is trying to do. IMO, 3 key elements have been missing since our championship in2007, which are; heart, character, and chemistry

    The players that Ben has acquired are by no means stars but I think these may be the guys that can restore some of those 3 intangibles. These guys also want to prove that they still belong and can contribute in a big way.

    I have failed to be a team player and for that, I apologize. I would love to see another 2004 season.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good Ike.  You will have more fun this way.  this club, unlike the incarnations of recent years, is going to be fun to root for.  Why?  because they will have the heart and character that have been in short supply. Whether that translates into chemistry and/or wins remains to be seen.  But I like these underdogs*.

    I wouldn't expect 04.  04 had heart, character and these intangibles, yes.  But they also had Schill and Pedro at the top of the rotation, Manny in the middle, and some heavyweight mofos.  This club is gonna have to be of the "sum greater than the parts" mold.  But, as we have seen in recent years, that mold can take you to the promised land.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You hit the nail on the head, underdogs. When we got swept by the Halos in '08, I was in disbelief. I had grown accostomed, and expected the Sox to just roll over everyone. I was spolied and perhaps became bitter about it. Then, when we blew the 9 game lead in 2011, it was almost as if fate took a hand. These were not the same RS that won in 2004 and 2007. We had lost our way and now we need to get back to the days when the games were fun, edge-of-your seat games. The games when the outcome was indeterminate until the last out was made. The games that would send the older folks to the doctor with chest pains (kidding).

    Truth be told, the Sox have become boring. I want that excitement back and I think we'll see it this season.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    We need more than just these 5 big "ifs", but tell me the odds of flipping a coin and getting 5 heads in a row?

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, we need more than these 5 big ifs.  In order for any team to succeed, it needs relative success from all strata on its roster.  no doubt.  But these 5, given the moves of the off-season vis-a-vis addressing performance needs, are the keys (in my mind).

    And I dont see these ifs being as binary as coin flips.  I suppose lackey might be 50/50, and, sure, health is always uncertain.  But given respective histories, I see these ifs as likely positive outcomes.

    Yup.  Every team has question marks.  If you did the odds this way, you can make a case for -0- teams making the playoffs.

    The best way to go about it to add up all the OPS's and OPSa, with risk factors, expected number of games, replacement values, and come up with expected RS and RA.  Use Py to determine the record.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

     

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    3 key elements have been missing since our championship in 2007, which are; heart, character, and chemistry

    [/QUOTE]

    You can create those three elements and still not win.  What doesn't come easily are finding solid pitchers and a few more high OB guys to support them. 

    Thats our downfall along with injuries


     

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    We need more than just these 5 big "ifs", but tell me the odds of flipping a coin and getting 5 heads in a row?

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, we need more than these 5 big ifs.  In order for any team to succeed, it needs relative success from all strata on its roster.  no doubt.  But these 5, given the moves of the off-season vis-a-vis addressing performance needs, are the keys (in my mind).

    And I dont see these ifs being as binary as coin flips.  I suppose lackey might be 50/50, and, sure, health is always uncertain.  But given respective histories, I see these ifs as likely positive outcomes.

    Yup.  Every team has question marks.  If you did the odds this way, you can make a case for -0- teams making the playoffs.

    The best way to go about it to add up all the OPS's and OPSa, with risk factors, expected number of games, replacement values, and come up with expected RS and RA.  Use Py to determine the record.

    [/QUOTE]

    I am picking up what you are putting down Joe.  Lets do that ... well ... would you mind doing it?  ;)

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from fl+adam,. Show fl+adam,'s posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    Everybody way over thinks this stuff.  To win you need talent, and guys to play well.  The more talent a team has, the more they can overcome players being hurt or playing poorly.  The value of talent is a subjective thing.  It can be amassed in huge quantities in 6-8 superstar players with lesser players filling the roster, spread out over 15-18 "key" players with lessers left after that, or spread out over 25-30 players(depth), but not in 6-8 superstar players.  There will always be injuries in baseball.  A team that has a big chunck of its talent in a few superstars will be killed if some of them get hurt and the rest of the team doesn't step and overcome the loss.  A team could also play well enough as a team without the 6-8 stars to consistently win games(oakland), and can even have enough talent/depth to overcome the loss of a few players, as non-superstar players are easier to "replace".  More than one way to win.  Of coarse it is easier to have a roster of 25 superstars, but no team has had the resources to create that yet.  Even that mythical roster could be horrible if 6-8 key injuries take out the pitching staff, or the heart of the order, or if even everyone plays below their talent.

     

    The Sox need to play well and stay relatively healthy.  They can certainly win if things go right.

     

    Doesn't everyone agree that

    1) Lester is capable of winning 17, Buch 15, lackey 15, dubront 13, dempster 13, the bullpen is capable of winning 12, and the 6-8 starters are capable of winning 8.  Isn't that close to their career norms?  I have not checked, but I do not think this is a stretch.  That is 93 wins. 

    2) the lineup is certainly capable of being in the top 2-3 in the AL in runs.  Isn't that enough?

     

    Injuries and/or bad playing also can mean another 2012.  Lets all hope some of these guys play like they are capable.

     
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