In response to moonslav59's comment:

I'm not against it, in fact I have turned a 180 on Salty since April of 2012. I actually think we should extend Salty now at a hopefully discount rate (becuase I expect further improvment this year) and trade Lava now that Papi is the DH (Lava's best spot) for 2 years.

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That's the key with a Salty-like player i.e. skilled, but with holes plus upside.  I would try to sign him now and hope he continues to improve.  There are so few good catchers around - ever - that you sometimes have to take a risk.  It is virtually guaranteed that D Ross will be gone after 2014, and by no means certain that Lava will approach even Salty's current level....then some catchers e.g. Swihart years away.

For the Nth time (to some), Grandpa Salty is 2 and bit years older than Babyface Lava....and still young for a catcher and still developing.  

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We should also remember that VTek led the league in PBs at ages 27 and 28 and he had some low OPS at about Salty's current age (.730 at age 28 and .724 at age 30).

I'm not saying Salty will ever get to be as good as VTek behind the plate, but some catchers have late learning curves.

[/QUOTE]

Moon & Sonic,

Overall I agree with most of whats been discussed. I will add that passed ball stats have to be taken in context with both. Who had the job of catching Wakefield, Varitek did catch him quite a bit early in his career and Salty did in 2011. As Bob Uecker would say "the best method for catching a knuckleballer, is to wait for the ball to stop rolling then go pick it up".

As hitters the biggest difference I see is that Varitek walked more often and Salty has more raw power. I also don't think that given the workload that switch hitting did or does either of them any favors late in the year when statistically both struggle to square up the ball.

Defensively, both are big dudes and their greatest issue behind the plate and why Lavarnway is still a prospects is due to footwork and the time it takes for them to recieve and release the ball trying to control the oppositions running game. Salty has a cannon, but doesn't have "quick feet"...Varitek had neither. Which places a greater emphesis on the pitchers to hold the ball or be quicker to home. Yadier Molina is in the HOF catergory of catchers specific to this skill. Russel Martin was also adept at this due to both of them being athletic catchers. Which is why both are also at the top of the food chain controlling the run game..both have great arms, Salty's arm is in the same catergory, what he lacks that they both possess is quick feet. Which allows them to recieve and release the ball in under 2 seconds. If we take calling a good game out of the equasion. I'm not trying to minimize it's importance, but its more of an intangable vs a tangable skill. Varitek was a master at framing pitches and area where Salty has shown improvement. Agian it's footwork and learning how to shift your feet while staying in the crouch and giving the pitcher a good target. The way Vartiek set up as the pitch is being delivered plays a huge role in helping the pitcher to hit his location and aides in the catchers ability to keep his glove in postion to properly recieve the ball and stick the pitch on balls that are on the black (especially the low strike)...A tangable that Salty still has work to do...Lastly and perhaps the most overlooked tangable is blocking balls in the dirt, again it's related to footwork and athleticism. Salty stats improved largely due to not having to catch wake...I doubt he's ever in the class of Yadier Molina but is adept enough that as his footwork and set up behind the plate improves, his ability to keep the ball in front of him will also improve.

Overall Saltalamaccia is based on the norm an above average catcher...He's not however in the class of Posey or Mauer with the stick and will likely never be in the class of Yadier with the glove...So while I too think they should "sign him"...I also think they should continue to look for and keep thier options open to aquire an impact player at the position...

 

In response to Beantowne's comment:

That's the key with a Salty-like player i.e. skilled, but with holes plus upside.  I would try to sign him now and hope he continues to improve.  There are so few good catchers around - ever - that you sometimes have to take a risk.  It is virtually guaranteed that D Ross will be gone after 2014, and by no means certain that Lava will approach even Salty's current level....then some catchers e.g. Swihart years away.

For the Nth time (to some), Grandpa Salty is 2 and bit years older than Babyface Lava....and still young for a catcher and still developing.  

[/QUOTE]

We should also remember that VTek led the league in PBs at ages 27 and 28 and he had some low OPS at about Salty's current age (.730 at age 28 and .724 at age 30).

I'm not saying Salty will ever get to be as good as VTek behind the plate, but some catchers have late learning curves.

[/QUOTE]

Moon & Sonic,

Overall I agree with most of whats been discussed. I will add that passed ball stats have to be taken in context with both. Who had the job of catching Wakefield, Varitek did catch him quite a bit early in his career and Salty did in 2011. As Bob Uecker would say "the best method for catching a knuckleballer, is to wait for the ball to stop rolling then go pick it up".

As hitters the biggest difference I see is that Varitek walked more often and Salty has more raw power. I also don't think that given the workload that switch hitting did or does either of them any favors late in the year when statistically both struggle to square up the ball.

Defensively, both are big dudes and their greatest issue behind the plate and why Lavarnway is still a prospects is due to footwork and the time it takes for them to recieve and release the ball trying to control the oppositions running game. Salty has a cannon, but doesn't have "quick feet"...Varitek had neither. Which places a greater emphesis on the pitchers to hold the ball or be quicker to home. Yadier Molina is in the HOF catergory of catchers specific to this skill. Russel Martin was also adept at this due to both of them being athletic catchers. Which is why both are also at the top of the food chain controlling the run game..both have great arms, Salty's arm is in the same catergory, what he lacks that they both possess is quick feet. Which allows them to recieve and release the ball in under 2 seconds. If we take calling a good game out of the equasion. I'm not trying to minimize it's importance, but its more of an intangable vs a tangable skill. Varitek was a master at framing pitches and area where Salty has shown improvement. Agian it's footwork and learning how to shift your feet while staying in the crouch and giving the pitcher a good target. The way Vartiek set up as the pitch is being delivered plays a huge role in helping the pitcher to hit his location and aides in the catchers ability to keep his glove in postion to properly recieve the ball and stick the pitch on balls that are on the black (especially the low strike)...A tangable that Salty still has work to do...Lastly and perhaps the most overlooked tangable is blocking balls in the dirt, again it's related to footwork and athleticism. Salty stats improved largely due to not having to catch wake...I doubt he's ever in the class of Yadier Molina but is adept enough that as his footwork and set up behind the plate improves, his ability to keep the ball in front of him will also improve.

Overall Saltalamaccia is based on the norm an above average catcher...He's not however in the class of Posey or Mauer with the stick and will likely never be in the class of Yadier with the glove...So while I too think they should "sign him"...I also think they should continue to look for and keep thier options open to aquire an impact player at the position...

 

[/QUOTE]

Well said.

I will add that although I can't find my data, I did go back and seperate out the PBs and WPs of Salty when he caught Wake vs those not with Wake, and he has improved greatly in the blocking bad pitches category with Wake taken out of the equation. 

I am not sure it's easy to improve on quick footwork at this age, but I agree that is his biggest issue.

He has improved on game-calling and handling pitchers since early last year. That's the main reason I did a 180 on my views towards him (well, maybe a 150).

In response to moonslav59's comment:

We should also remember that VTek led the league in PBs at ages 27 and 28 and he had some low OPS at about Salty's current age (.730 at age 28 and .724 at age 30).

I'm not saying Salty will ever get to be as good as VTek behind the plate, but some catchers have late learning curves.

[/QUOTE]

Moon & Sonic,

Overall I agree with most of whats been discussed. I will add that passed ball stats have to be taken in context with both. Who had the job of catching Wakefield, Varitek did catch him quite a bit early in his career and Salty did in 2011. As Bob Uecker would say "the best method for catching a knuckleballer, is to wait for the ball to stop rolling then go pick it up".

As hitters the biggest difference I see is that Varitek walked more often and Salty has more raw power. I also don't think that given the workload that switch hitting did or does either of them any favors late in the year when statistically both struggle to square up the ball.

Defensively, both are big dudes and their greatest issue behind the plate and why Lavarnway is still a prospects is due to footwork and the time it takes for them to recieve and release the ball trying to control the oppositions running game. Salty has a cannon, but doesn't have "quick feet"...Varitek had neither. Which places a greater emphesis on the pitchers to hold the ball or be quicker to home. Yadier Molina is in the HOF catergory of catchers specific to this skill. Russel Martin was also adept at this due to both of them being athletic catchers. Which is why both are also at the top of the food chain controlling the run game..both have great arms, Salty's arm is in the same catergory, what he lacks that they both possess is quick feet. Which allows them to recieve and release the ball in under 2 seconds. If we take calling a good game out of the equasion. I'm not trying to minimize it's importance, but its more of an intangable vs a tangable skill. Varitek was a master at framing pitches and area where Salty has shown improvement. Agian it's footwork and learning how to shift your feet while staying in the crouch and giving the pitcher a good target. The way Vartiek set up as the pitch is being delivered plays a huge role in helping the pitcher to hit his location and aides in the catchers ability to keep his glove in postion to properly recieve the ball and stick the pitch on balls that are on the black (especially the low strike)...A tangable that Salty still has work to do...Lastly and perhaps the most overlooked tangable is blocking balls in the dirt, again it's related to footwork and athleticism. Salty stats improved largely due to not having to catch wake...I doubt he's ever in the class of Yadier Molina but is adept enough that as his footwork and set up behind the plate improves, his ability to keep the ball in front of him will also improve.

Overall Saltalamaccia is based on the norm an above average catcher...He's not however in the class of Posey or Mauer with the stick and will likely never be in the class of Yadier with the glove...So while I too think they should "sign him"...I also think they should continue to look for and keep thier options open to aquire an impact player at the position...

 

[/QUOTE]

Well said.

I will add that although I can't find my data, I did go back and seperate out the PBs and WPs of Salty when he caught Wake vs those not with Wake, and he has improved greatly in the blocking bad pitches category with Wake taken out of the equation. 

I am not sure it's easy to improve on quick footwork at this age, but I agree that is his biggest issue.

He has improved on game-calling and handling pitchers since early last year. That's the main reason I did a 180 on my views towards him (well, maybe a 150).

[/QUOTE]

the good news is 180 is halfway to 360...so you can still end up in the same place....

In response to Beantowne's comment:

Totally agree with that.  If we buy, trade for or develop an impact catcher we would be able to trade Salty....at the moment we're quite exposed in 2014/15 without him. 

In response to Beantowne's comment:

Moon & Sonic,

Overall I agree with most of whats been discussed. I will add that passed ball stats have to be taken in context with both. Who had the job of catching Wakefield, Varitek did catch him quite a bit early in his career and Salty did in 2011. As Bob Uecker would say "the best method for catching a knuckleballer, is to wait for the ball to stop rolling then go pick it up".

As hitters the biggest difference I see is that Varitek walked more often and Salty has more raw power. I also don't think that given the workload that switch hitting did or does either of them any favors late in the year when statistically both struggle to square up the ball.

Defensively, both are big dudes and their greatest issue behind the plate and why Lavarnway is still a prospects is due to footwork and the time it takes for them to recieve and release the ball trying to control the oppositions running game. Salty has a cannon, but doesn't have "quick feet"...Varitek had neither. Which places a greater emphesis on the pitchers to hold the ball or be quicker to home. Yadier Molina is in the HOF catergory of catchers specific to this skill. Russel Martin was also adept at this due to both of them being athletic catchers. Which is why both are also at the top of the food chain controlling the run game..both have great arms, Salty's arm is in the same catergory, what he lacks that they both possess is quick feet. Which allows them to recieve and release the ball in under 2 seconds. If we take calling a good game out of the equasion. I'm not trying to minimize it's importance, but its more of an intangable vs a tangable skill. Varitek was a master at framing pitches and area where Salty has shown improvement. Agian it's footwork and learning how to shift your feet while staying in the crouch and giving the pitcher a good target. The way Vartiek set up as the pitch is being delivered plays a huge role in helping the pitcher to hit his location and aides in the catchers ability to keep his glove in postion to properly recieve the ball and stick the pitch on balls that are on the black (especially the low strike)...A tangable that Salty still has work to do...Lastly and perhaps the most overlooked tangable is blocking balls in the dirt, again it's related to footwork and athleticism. Salty stats improved largely due to not having to catch wake...I doubt he's ever in the class of Yadier Molina but is adept enough that as his footwork and set up behind the plate improves, his ability to keep the ball in front of him will also improve.

Overall Saltalamaccia is based on the norm an above average catcher...He's not however in the class of Posey or Mauer with the stick and will likely never be in the class of Yadier with the glove...So while I too think they should "sign him"...I also think they should continue to look for and keep thier options open to aquire an impact player at the position...

 

[/QUOTE]

Well said.

I will add that although I can't find my data, I did go back and seperate out the PBs and WPs of Salty when he caught Wake vs those not with Wake, and he has improved greatly in the blocking bad pitches category with Wake taken out of the equation. 

I am not sure it's easy to improve on quick footwork at this age, but I agree that is his biggest issue.

He has improved on game-calling and handling pitchers since early last year. That's the main reason I did a 180 on my views towards him (well, maybe a 150).

[/QUOTE]

the good news is 180 is halfway to 360...so you can still end up in the same place....

[/QUOTE]

I'm getting dizzy!

In response to moonslav59's comment:

Well said.

I will add that although I can't find my data, I did go back and seperate out the PBs and WPs of Salty when he caught Wake vs those not with Wake, and he has improved greatly in the blocking bad pitches category with Wake taken out of the equation. 

I am not sure it's easy to improve on quick footwork at this age, but I agree that is his biggest issue.

He has improved on game-calling and handling pitchers since early last year. That's the main reason I did a 180 on my views towards him (well, maybe a 150).

[/QUOTE]

the good news is 180 is halfway to 360...so you can still end up in the same place....

[/QUOTE]

I'm getting dizzy!

[/QUOTE]

me too...

Really think the one thing you guys are missing when comparing Salty to Tek is the intangibles Tek plain and simple was a leader of men, it wasn't about the strength of arm or how quick his feet were. Plain and simple Tek was a leader, while others are followers. Pitchers believed in Tek, believed in the pitch he was calling at a crucial time and confidence is probably a pitchers greatest asset in a high leverage situation. While IMO believe Salty can be every bit as good as Tek as a hitter [maybe better], not sure pitching staff will ever believe in him the way they did w/ Tek. This is probably the biggest reason for the decline of so many RS pithers since Tek's retirement. Salty will need tme to form his own relationships, but just don't see that leadership quality that you saw w/ Tek, not sure we'll ever see that again anyway, Tek was special in that regard.

In response to moonslav59's comment:

Well said.

I will add that although I can't find my data, I did go back and seperate out the PBs and WPs of Salty when he caught Wake vs those not with Wake, and he has improved greatly in the blocking bad pitches category with Wake taken out of the equation. 

I am not sure it's easy to improve on quick footwork at this age, but I agree that is his biggest issue.

He has improved on game-calling and handling pitchers since early last year. That's the main reason I did a 180 on my views towards him (well, maybe a 150).

[/QUOTE]

the good news is 180 is halfway to 360...so you can still end up in the same place....

[/QUOTE]

I'm getting dizzy!

[/QUOTE]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8BmIf1A3js

In response to garyhow's comment:

I totally agree, but am not sure many people saw him for what he is back when he was 27-28 and even up to 30.

In response to moonslav59's comment:

Getting timely hits, I agree, is not sustainable, but being able to put the ball in play in crucial situations, is. One thing that aggravates me the most, is hitters that swing the bat the same way with two strikes, as they do with no strikes. Putting the ball in play is just not emphasized enough in today's game, IMO.

This post has been removed.

Timely hitting is not something easily identified and acquired. It is also a "skill" that is not sustainable. It is largely luck and circumstance. 

A line-up with J Upton in the peak of his prime in 2015 would be better than what we are looking at right now.

I'd have liked to see us get Myers. Stanton would be a goldmine, but would likely cost 2 gold mines to get.

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Getting timely hits, I agree, is not sustainable, but being able to put the ball in play in crucial situations, is. One thing that aggravates me the most, is hitters that swing the bat the same way with two strikes, as they do with no strikes. Putting the ball in play is just not emphasized enough in today's game, IMO.

You make a good point, but I also think some posters overemphasize Ks. If a guy gets on base enough, I don't really care that much if he Ks or pops out for a lot of his outs. I get the value of moving runners over, but that is a rare thing even with great contact hitters, and often does not lead to a run anyways. 

Point well taken, though.