Rethinking 2013

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to CTChris's comment:
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    In response to Beantowne's comment:
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    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
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    In response to CTChris' comment:
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    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
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    I already did.  767 runs scored, 676 against.

    [/QUOTE]


    Based on last season's AL numbers, that would rank the Sox #3 in runs scored and tied for 6th in run prevention.

    IF what you say comes to pass, then I'd say the Sox will be competitive. Not necessarily outstanding, but those numbers should mean they'll be playing in meaningful games later in the season.

    I'll take competitive.....for now.

    [/QUOTE]

    Hey Chris, good to see you here man.

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    Indeed it is Happy New Year my man!

    I think competitive is the operative word for the team in the next 2 or 3 years while they retool the nucleaus.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Thanks Bean. HNY to you as well. Nice to see you still around here.....and I agree. "Competitive" probably is the operative word. I have no problem with that. While expectations shouldn't be at an all time high, it should be noted that good things can happen to competitive teams.

    [/QUOTE]

    I've been here with a few of the other old timers. Nice to see you and a few others from the old dem yanks crew droping by lately. Pass along my regards to Vic, Val Pete, Diva & CP, tell em to drop by once in a while...If they can get past the trollish behavior of some. Every now an then a good old fashion baseball discusion florishes. I've been meaning to check in with the crew and have logged on a few times and it's been pretty quiet the few times I've trid...I'm too impatient and like to engage in back and forth debates...

    As for our beloved Sox...I agree and again if we all keep the season in its proper perspective. We might actually find enjoyment in watching the Sox play...I'm bullish on the teams makeup, but I also don't have great expectation, that as comprised they'll be a playoff squad either...could happen, just unlikely given the dynamics of the AL East & West where one could argue that in the big pitcure the sox fall somehwere between the A's, Yanks, Jays, Rays, Rangers (edit O's). With the Angels & Tigers looking like the class of the preseason AL power rankings...

    BT

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
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    In response to EdithBRTN's comment:
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    A lawyer should know the difference between affect and effect. You are a fraud, troll, and never was a Red Sox fan. To be specific, you are a "concern troll".

    [/QUOTE]

     

    You are a "grammar troll" 

     

     

    Urban Dictionary: grammar troll

     

    "Trolls often go by multiple names to circumvent getting banned." Urban Dictionary 

    [/QUOTE]


    Pike's more of a spelling troll.  (Spelling isn't grammar)

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    I already did.  767 runs scored, 676 against.

    [/QUOTE]


    Based on last season's AL numbers, that would rank the Sox #3 in runs scored and tied for 6th in run prevention.

    IF what you say comes to pass, then I'd say the Sox will be competitive. Not necessarily outstanding, but those numbers should mean they'll be playing in meaningful games later in the season.

    I'll take competitive.....for now.

    [/QUOTE]

    Hey Chris, good to see you here man.

    [/QUOTE]


    Thanks Hfx....although I gotta say I've been hesitant to come back here. The last time I posted something Kimsaysthis called me a Yankee troll LOL


    I've since learned that isn't anything to be surprised about :-)

    [/QUOTE]

     When you're not called a Yankee troll here, is the time to worry;) Stick around, Chris

    [/QUOTE]


    I was once called a Yankee troll for the horrific crime of writing that I thought Babe Ruth was a better player than Ted Williams.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    "I'm w/ u. RS have had some bad luck the past few years w/ injuries or just plain underperforming. One of these years things will break right for RS why not 2013?"

    I agree.  I know there are a lot ifs going into the season, but every team has question marks.  I don't think we need all of those question marks to break our way in order for the team to be competitive. 

    Just about everything went wrong last season, from injuries, to underperformances, to the mess known as Bobby Valentine.  If the Sox have just an average number of bad breaks in 2013, rather than the remarkable number they had last year, then that's already a significant improvement over 2012.  Have a better than average number of things break in our favor, and this team will be playing meaningful games throughout September.

    I think the key still lies with Lester and Buchholz.  Based on their histories, some of their peripherals/splits, and having Farrell at the helm, I think there is a very good chance that both of them perform like like we know they are capable of doing.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "I'm w/ u. RS have had some bad luck the past few years w/ injuries or just plain underperforming. One of these years things will break right for RS why not 2013?"

    I agree.  I know there are a lot ifs going into the season, but every team has question marks.  I don't think we need all of those question marks to break our way in order for the team to be competitive. 

    Just about everything went wrong last season, from injuries, to underperformances, to the mess known as Bobby Valentine.  If the Sox have just an average number of bad breaks in 2013, rather than the remarkable number they had last year, then that's already a significant improvement over 2012.  Have a better than average number of things break in our favor, and this team will be playing meaningful games throughout September.

    I think the key still lies with Lester and Buchholz.  Based on their histories, some of their peripherals/splits, and having Farrell at the helm, I think there is a very good chance that both of them perform like like we know they are capable of doing.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I am wishing this comes true as well, but I wouldn't say the chances are "very good" that both Buch and Lester stay healthy and pitch well in 2013. I'd say the odds are close to 50-50. My point is that even if they both give us 30+ starts at a high performance level, we'll still need so many other things to go right. Not everything, but a lot. A lot more than we needed to go right last year.

    We needed a solid 3/4 slot hitter (LF, RF, 1B): we got none. We needed a solid 1/2 slot starter: we got a 4 slot (maybe 3 slot tops) in Dempster.

    The two biggest need areas were not addressed this winter. I don't see us turning around a 69 win team to become a serious contender without filling either of our top priorities.

    I would have been OK with a plan that filled neither this winter, if we had put in place a comprehensive plan to make us much better in 2014, 2015 and/or beyond. We did not do that either. I know I have been repeating myself on this point in various ways, but I am finding it hard to understand the high level of optimisim on this board both about our 2013 chances, but more importantly, about our longer term future.

     

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am wishing this comes true as well, but I wouldn't say the chances are "very good" that both Buch and Lester stay healthy and pitch well in 2013. I'd say the odds are close to 50-50. My point is that even if they both give us 30+ starts at a high performance level, we'll still need so many other things to go right. Not everything, but a lot. A lot more than we needed to go right last year.

    We needed a solid 3/4 slot hitter (LF, RF, 1B): we got none. We needed a solid 1/2 slot starter: we got a 4 slot (maybe 3 slot tops) in Dempster.

    The two biggest need areas were not addressed this winter. I don't see us turning around a 69 win team to become a serious contender without filling either of our top priorities.

    I would have been OK with a plan that filled neither this winter, if we had put in place a comprehensive plan to make us much better in 2014, 2015 and/or beyond. We did not do that either. I know I have been repeating myself on this point in various ways, but I am finding it hard to understand the high level of optimisim on this board both about our 2013 chances, but more importantly, about our longer term future.

    [/QUOTE]

    Lester has been a workhorse since 2008 making 30+ starts each season, and relatively consistent in terms of ERA (sub 3.5) until last year. He was hit hard at times last season, but there really is no obvious reason for it. From what I've read, it sounds like you have to chalk it up to bad luck.  I see no reason for him not to rebound.

    Clay is more of a concern as far as making 30 starts, but if he is healthy, I think he'll pitch at a high level. He started of slow last season, but after the first two months, his ERA was 3.45. I understand that he has added a splitter to what was already an excellent arsenal.

    Again, there was so much that went wrong with last year's team that contributed to the 93 losses. I don't think it's going to be too difficult to improve a good amount from that just by staying relatively healthy and by not having the media circus and controversy surrounding BobbyV.

    If you don't see the team as being competitive in 2013, then I can understand your pessimism about 2014 as well (pessimism about 2015 I don't really get).  Many of the guys signed this offseason will still be under contract, and they will be a year older.  But, I don't see how any of the guys who were signed this offseason are blocking any of the kids who may be ready in 2014, and I think there is enough payroll flexibility next offseason to fill in needs that we might have.

    Now, if all of the FAs that we signed this year bomb, then we might be in trouble for this year and next.  I don't see that happening though.  I think the FO did a very good job of balancing the needs of this year without sacrificing long term goals.

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am wishing this comes true as well, but I wouldn't say the chances are "very good" that both Buch and Lester stay healthy and pitch well in 2013. I'd say the odds are close to 50-50. My point is that even if they both give us 30+ starts at a high performance level, we'll still need so many other things to go right. Not everything, but a lot. A lot more than we needed to go right last year.

    We needed a solid 3/4 slot hitter (LF, RF, 1B): we got none. We needed a solid 1/2 slot starter: we got a 4 slot (maybe 3 slot tops) in Dempster.

    The two biggest need areas were not addressed this winter. I don't see us turning around a 69 win team to become a serious contender without filling either of our top priorities.

    I would have been OK with a plan that filled neither this winter, if we had put in place a comprehensive plan to make us much better in 2014, 2015 and/or beyond. We did not do that either. I know I have been repeating myself on this point in various ways, but I am finding it hard to understand the high level of optimisim on this board both about our 2013 chances, but more importantly, about our longer term future.

    [/QUOTE]

    Lester has been a workhorse since 2008 making 30+ starts each season, and relatively consistent in terms of ERA (sub 3.5) until last year. He was hit hard at times last season, but there really is no obvious reason for it. From what I've read, it sounds like you have to chalk it up to bad luck.  I see no reason for him not to rebound.

    Clay is more of a concern as far as making 30 starts, but if he is healthy, I think he'll pitch at a high level. He started of slow last season, but after the first two months, his ERA was 3.45. I understand that he has added a splitter to what was already an excellent arsenal.

    Again, there was so much that went wrong with last year's team that contributed to the 93 losses. I don't think it's going to be too difficult to improve a good amount from that just by staying relatively healthy and by not having the media circus and controversy surrounding BobbyV.

    If you don't see the team as being competitive in 2013, then I can understand your pessimism about 2014 as well (pessimism about 2015 I don't really get).  Many of the guys signed this offseason will still be under contract, and they will be a year older.  But, I don't see how any of the guys who were signed this offseason are blocking any of the kids who may be ready in 2014, and I think there is enough payroll flexibility next offseason to fill in needs that we might have.

    Now, if all of the FAs that we signed this year bomb, then we might be in trouble for this year and next.  I don't see that happening though.  I think the FO did a very good job of balancing the needs of this year without sacrificing long term goals.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Kimmi,

    Well said and I concur with your overview of the team and in particular the upside of Lester in 2013.  Moon's take is that we're doomed even before the season begins and given the depth of his disappointment with what he sees as underwhelming player aquisions. it might take until June or July for him to come out of his funk...

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    moon has been uncharacteristically dour this off-season.  And I certainly understand his position.  After years (going on 6 now) of waiting for individuals to live up to their career norms (not even their hype) and watching them get injured and tank and all manner of underperforming, the Sox this off-season have signed a bunch of guys who are overpaid considering their career performances and age with the hopes they will have career years while the unmoved underperformers are counted on to return to their former glory days.  Unrealistic, says moon.  And I concur.

    However, I am more in the Chad Finn line of philosophy on the Sox off-season so far.  A few of these guys will Tony Clark on us, in all likelihood.  But there is depth that the Sox have not had for a few years, and the guys providing it are gamers and true professionals.  Not a one of them is an entitled whiner, like Beckett.  And hopefully they bring passion that was lacking in Gonzalez, and health that was lacking in Crawford.  And they do it for a less.  So, the prognosis for next year is sunnier than 2012 if one remembers that what made the team a 69-win team was won only 16 games after July 31st.  That team lacked Ortiz and Middlebrooks and Lackey...all back.  And it had:  Nava/Kalish/Ciriaco/Iglesias/Lavarnway/Podsednik/Byrd/McDonald/Loney/Punto/Gomez/Sweeney in the starting lineup on a regular basis.  Not one of them provided enough production during that time period to justify the amount of starts and ABs they received.

    And worse, the pitching of the bottom end of the rotation was 5 and 20, 7.13 ERA in 31 starts.  Dempster, even if he is pitching like he did for Texas, will improve on that.  In years past, moon would have recognized that and used it as part of his argument for an improved team.  This year he is just too discouraged to see the light, IMO.  In addition, the bullpen, which moon has defended, was wretched as well.  The closer lost and/or blew more than a dozen games.  They were 17-20 in one run games and 2-10 in extra innings games.

    Even if Ben had done nothing to the roster and counted on the return to health of Ortiz, Middlebrooks, Ellsbury and Lackey (and somewhat of Pedroia as well), then he would be justified in expecting some improvement.  But he went out and got bona fide major league talent to bolster a roster that will see the return of some very important players.  And he has addressed the bullpen woes (I especially like the Uehara signing) and the back end of the rotation (even though I would have preferred he do that by adding a #1/2 type starter, pushing all the rest back). 

    Will it be enough to be a WC contender?  It just may be.  We will have to see.  Will they be fun to watch?  Certainly more so than they were after July.  I remain cautiously optimistic.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    The problem I have with many trade proposals here is that they don't take into account the modern baseball world's largely competent executives, huge budgets for scouts, equal access to modern stats, etc.  Over the past couple of years here the last few baseball Luddites have seemed to begin to understand salary and control issues, thankfully.

    There still are too many views along the lines of "Salty svcks!  Low BA (ahem), can't catch, strikes out too much....let's trade him while he still has value!".  Is it so hard to understand that if a guy on the internet is correct about Salty's low value then every baseball GM knows that too?  In Economics 101 terms:  if you think player A has the value of 100 widgets, then every other team likely values him at 90-110 widgets....and will offer you 80 widgets initially. 

    So where is there potential value?:

    • Better talent evaluation, of course, be it on MLB or MiLB players.  But consider the level of knowledge even laymen have these days, in part due to the many scouting reports widely available e.g. Keith Law....every team probably has access to something on every player;
    • Cast the net widely and cheaply:  Hello David Ortiz, Kevin Millar, Bill Mueller, Tim Wakefield, etc.;
    • Look for injury or similar recovery opportunities....Beltre, Tiant, S. Drew (?);

    The only other I can think of is the 1919 Red Sox, Philly As, St. Louis Browns, Oakland As and Marlins firesales....but it's only been the Marlins for nearly 40 years.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    moon has been uncharacteristically dour this off-season.  And I certainly understand his position.  After years (going on 6 now) of waiting for individuals to live up to their career norms (not even their hype) and watching them get injured and tank and all manner of underperforming, the Sox this off-season have signed a bunch of guys who are overpaid considering their career performances and age with the hopes they will have career years while the unmoved underperformers are counted on to return to their former glory days.  Unrealistic, says moon.  And I concur.

    However, I am more in the Chad Finn line of philosophy on the Sox off-season so far.  A few of these guys will Tony Clark on us, in all likelihood.  But there is depth that the Sox have not had for a few years, and the guys providing it are gamers and true professionals.  Not a one of them is an entitled whiner, like Beckett.  And hopefully they bring passion that was lacking in Gonzalez, and health that was lacking in Crawford.  And they do it for a less.  So, the prognosis for next year is sunnier than 2012 if one remembers that what made the team a 69-win team was won only 16 games after July 31st.  That team lacked Ortiz and Middlebrooks and Lackey...all back.  And had it had:  Nava/Kalish/Ciriaco/Iglesias/Lavarnway/Podsednik/Byrd/McDonald/Loney/Punto/Gomez/Sweeney in the starting lineup on a regular basis.  Not one of them provided enough production during that time period to justify the amount of starts and ABs they received.

    And worse, the pitching of the bottom end of the rotation was 5 and 20, 7.13 ERA in 31 starts.  Dempster, even if he is pitching like he did for Texas, will improve on that.  In years past, moon would have recognized that and used it as part of his argument for an improved team.  This year he is just too discouraged to see the light, IMO.  In addition, the bullpen, which moon has defended, was wretched as well.  The closer lost and/or blew more than a dozen games.  They were 17-20 in one run games and 2-10 in extra innings games.

    Even if Ben had done nothing to the roster and counted on the return to health of Ortiz, Middlebrooks, Ellsbury and Lackey (and somewhat of Pedroia as well), then he would be justified in expecting some improvement.  But he went out and got bona fide major league talent to bolster a roster that will see the return of some very important players.  And he has addressed the bullpen woes (I especially like the Uehara signing) and the back end of the rotation (even though I would have preferred he do that by adding a #1/2 type starter, pushing all the rest back). 

    Will it be enough to be a WC contender?  It just may be.  We will have to see.  Will they be fun to watch?  Certainly more so than they were after July.  I remain cautiously optimistic.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well said and I'll add that the roster is still not complete and given the terms of the current players under contract and the less than free agent pool this year. Prudence was the best coarse and entering the season and into next offseason we're positioned to add impact players to the roster. a fact that seems to be lost on Moon. of which there were exactly two in this years FA class.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    Maybe it's the new year but I agree wholeheartedly with both Alibiike and Parhunter. Full disclosure... I've been hard on both of them in the past. 

    The nicest guys, the best "chemistry" and teams with heart will only get you so far. Look at those lineups on the 2004, 2007 teams. And as Parhunter mentioned true #1 and #2 starters with tough pens. Those teams were awesome.

    What I agreed most with in Alibiike's orginal post wasn't so much Ben's doing a great job or poor job-- the point is it's too early to tell. It's fine to analyze moves, signings and trades but he walked into a crapstorm. Give him a little time to straighten it out. I say the 2014 season is Ben's make or break year.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    Maybe it's the new year but I agree wholeheartedly with both Alibiike and Parhunter. Full disclosure... I've been hard on both of them in the past. 

    The nicest guys, the best "chemistry" and teams with heart will only get you so far. Look at those lineups on the 2004, 2007 teams. And as Parhunter mentioned true #1 and #2 starters with tough pens. Those teams were awesome.

    What I agreed most with in Alibiike's orginal post wasn't so much Ben's doing a great job or poor job-- the point is it's too early to tell. It's fine to analyze moves, signings and trades but he walked into a crapstorm. Give him a little time to straighten it out. I say the 2014 season is Ben's make or break year.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's fair, but who is comparing the rebuilding 2013 Sox to the two mighty championship teams of 4 & 7?  No one, I think it's fair to say. 

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    A new G.M. takes over a team that was thought to be the best in the game , but folded and was eliminated on the last day of the season. In his first year at the helm , the team disintegrates and finishes in the cellar. Now , in his second year in charge , the team is looking at another very possible last place finish.  And , we are hearing that 2014 is now his " make or break " year ?  All this despite having one of the highest payrolls in the game .  Come on guys .  Is this any way to run an airline ?  Why all the love for Ben ?  Whatever happened to accountability ?  

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    A new G.M. takes over a team that was thought to be the best in the game , but folded and was eliminated on the last day of the season. In his first year at the helm , the team disintegrates and finishes in the cellar. Now , in his second year in charge , the team is looking at another very possible last place finish.  And , we are hearing that 2014 is now his " make or break " year ?  All this despite having one of the highest payrolls in the game .  Come on guys .  Is this any way to run an airline ?  Why all the love for Ben ?  Whatever happened to accountability ?  

    [/QUOTE]

    For the Nth time.....:

    • Cherington was hired to be the Sox' GM on 25 Oct 2011.
    • The Sox were already at or near their budget ceiling given expected arb cases, planned salary rises (AGon, Buch), etc. 
    • There is no "love" for the guy, just the acceptance by normal, thinking people that Ben had very little opportunity to influence the 2012 Red Sox roster.

    Do you deny any of those statements?  If so, which?  On what grounds? 

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    A new G.M. takes over a team that was thought to be the best in the game , but folded and was eliminated on the last day of the season. In his first year at the helm , the team disintegrates and finishes in the cellar. Now , in his second year in charge , the team is looking at another very possible last place finish.  And , we are hearing that 2014 is now his " make or break " year ?  All this despite having one of the highest payrolls in the game .  Come on guys .  Is this any way to run an airline ?  Why all the love for Ben ?  Whatever happened to accountability ?  

    [/QUOTE]


    I have already posted, and I do not think that this is an overstatement, that if the Sox win fewer than 70 games in 2013 then Ben will be looking for new employment next October.  But the team he has assembled will not do that badly, IMO.  Any improvement at all will buy Ben another year of employment, I should think.  After that, if there is little improvement, or the team regresses back to an under .500 team he will almost certainly be gone.  In all likelihood, 2014 is Ben's real make-or-break year.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    A new G.M. takes over a team that was thought to be the best in the game , but folded and was eliminated on the last day of the season. In his first year at the helm , the team disintegrates and finishes in the cellar. Now , in his second year in charge , the team is looking at another very possible last place finish.  And , we are hearing that 2014 is now his " make or break " year ?  All this despite having one of the highest payrolls in the game .  Come on guys .  Is this any way to run an airline ?  Why all the love for Ben ?  Whatever happened to accountability ?  

    [/QUOTE]

    For the Nth time.....:

    • Cherrington was hired to be the Sox' GM on 25 Oct 2011.
    • The Sox were already at or near their budget ceiling given expected arb cases, planned salary rises (AGon, Buch), etc. 
    • There is no "love" for the guy, just the acceptance by normal, thinking people that Ben had very little opportunity to influence the 2012 Red Sox roster.

    Do you deny any of those statements?  If so, which?  On what grounds? 

    [/QUOTE]


    The moves he did make in 2012 only served to make for a worse team.  The outlook is, realistically,  not any better this year, despite the big trade with L.A.  Despite the high payroll.  If the team fails again in 2013 , the same fans will make more excuses.  We need accountability , not excuses. We need results.  If you are the GM of a big business like the Sox , you need to show some results. When things get worse on your watch , you need to be held accountable. Do you deny any of those statements ?  If so , which ? On what  grounds ?

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    [/QUOTE]



    I have already posted, and I do not think that this is an overstatement, that if the Sox win fewer than 70 games in 2013 then Ben will be looking for new employment next October.  But the team he has assembled will not do that badly, IMO.  Any improvement at all will buy Ben another year of employment, I should think.  After that, if there is little improvement, or the team regresses back to an under .500 team he will almost certainly be gone.  In all likelihood, 2014 is Ben's real make-or-break year.

    [/QUOTE]

    I will add - and it will attract the ire of some - that the 2012 69-win total was artificial.  Not that I don't agree with BB's "you are what your record says you are" comment....in general, I do.  But when the Sox realised their season was toast they pulled the plug, made the miraculous deal with Earvin "Mr. Baseball" Johnson and, combined with season-ending injuries to Papi, Midds, etc., fielded our top AAAA prospects for 2 months.

    Even allowing for injuries and the worst manager and motivator in modern baseball history it was probably still an 80-win or so team.  The base is not as low as 69 wins implies.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     


    The moves he did make in 2012 only served to make for a worse team.  The outlook is, realistically,  not any better this year, despite the big trade with L.A.  Despite the high payroll.  If the team fails again in 2013 , the same fans will make more excuses.  We need accountability , not excuses. We need results.  If you are the GM of a big business like the Sox , you need to show some results. When things get worse on your watch , you need to be held accountable. Do you deny any of those statements ?  If so , which ? On what  grounds ?

    [/QUOTE]

    To which moves are you referring? Be specific.  And obviously you have to exclude the late season moves after the season was lost.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to EdithBRTN's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't subscribe to the 20-20 hindsight evaluation of a GM especially when there is a multitude of injuries and underperformance. DGalehouse blamed the meltdown in Sept. 2011 on Ben when Theo was in charge and that meltdown was the fault of 25 players and not Theo. DGalehouse fails to be logical, he is speaking with all passion instead of reason.

    [/QUOTE]

    I would say that, ultimately, only long-term, 20/20 hindsight has such value.

    In other words, to evaluate the Reddick+ for Bailey+ trade mid-season last year or even today is silly....or to evaluate Ben's performance to date.....you need to take the long-term view.  And we are not yet at that point on either.

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    [/QUOTE]

    I will add - and it will attract the ire of some - that the 2012 69-win total was artificial.  Not that I don't agree with BB's "you are what your record says you are" comment....in general, I do.  But when the Sox realised their season was toast they pulled the plug, made the miraculous deal with Earvin "Mr. Baseball" Johnson and, combined with season-ending injuries to Papi, Midds, etc., fielded our top AAAA prospects for 2 months.

    Even allowing for injuries and the worst manager and motivator in modern baseball history it was probably still an 80-win or so team.  The base is not as low as 69 wins implies.

    [/QUOTE]


    I certainly think you are right about that.  Which is why I cannot conceive of the Sox winning fewer than 70 games in 2013, even if Ben had done nothing.  BUT, by the same token...with a new manager and coaches and all of that Magic Johnson money spent on less than superstar players, if the 2013 Sox flop as bad or worse than the 2012 Sox, I have to believe that Ben will be gone, even if the owners do not think it was his fault.  They would have to fire him just to restore the public's trust (you know, the people who pay big bucks to fill the seats and drink the beer) in the team.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Rethinking 2013

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     


    The moves he did make in 2012 only served to make for a worse team.  The outlook is, realistically,  not any better this year, despite the big trade with L.A.  Despite the high payroll.  If the team fails again in 2013 , the same fans will make more excuses.  We need accountability , not excuses. We need results.  If you are the GM of a big business like the Sox , you need to show some results. When things get worse on your watch , you need to be held accountable. Do you deny any of those statements ?  If so , which ? On what  grounds ?

    [/QUOTE]

    To which moves are you referring? Be specific.  And obviously you have to exclude the late season moves after the season was lost.

    [/QUOTE]


    Letting Papelbon walk away without an offer.  Replacing him by trading Reddick ( 16th in MVP voting , playing for the playoff bound , low payroll A's. ) for the injury prone and ineffective Bailey. Coping with the injuries by signing a parade of ham and eggers during the season. Presiding over all of the turmoil surrounding the team.   When you are the GM , you have to be held accountable.  The late season moves , after the season was lost, were strictly to clear payroll.  Now , the cleared payroll dollars have been spent on another collection of ham and eggers.  Is that specific enough ?

     
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