Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    IMO this trade rid the Red Sox of all that they didn't want to be and got a fresh start.  Beckett was a malcontent ring leader who thought he was entitled, Crawford was an overpaid small market player who was and is breaking down and can't play on the big stage, Gonzo I don't quite get,  he is a great player but seems to have an I don't care attitude and as someone sais earlier, losing follows him around.  The salary dump alone allowed the Sox to get playersthat fit into their system.  They did go out and overpay for Gomes, Victorino and such but this is proving to be worth the money.  I applaud  BC for getting hte Sox back on track.  Maybe this team is overachieving this first half of the season but in the long run the Sox are headed back in the right direction.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Personally I don't like comparing this trade to the Pedro trade.  The two transactions are just too different.  When we traded for Pedro we acquired one of the best pitchers in history for next to nothing.  This trade was a very advantageous transaction but it was more of a cleansing of sins, a lifting of burdens.  



    The Pedro trade has to be considered the best of all, so far, and you are right, it is hard to compare the two.

    We did give up two very highly regarded pitching prospects for Pedro: Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr. While Pavano did not turn out great, he did have some fine seasons and brought the Expos Cliff Floyd in a later deal. Armas had some early success with the Expos, but never amounted to that much.

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    The Dodger deal's combined cap salary numbers:

              13 14 15 16 17 18

    AGON 22 22 22 22 22 22

    Craw  20 20 20 20 20

    Beck  17 17

    Punto  2

    Total  61 59 42 42 42 22

     

    Subtract what we pay LAD as a partial financial offset:

    2013: $3.9M + $2.62M (bonus portion)= $6.5M

    2014: ~$6.5M

    2015: ~$5.6M

    2016: ~$1.7M

    2017:~$1.7M

    2018:~$0.9M

     

    Total rounded off savings and who it paid for so far by largest deals made):

    2013: $54M  (Demp $13.25, Vict $13M, Papi $13M, Drew $9.5M, Gomes $5M)

    2014: $53M (Demp $13.25M, Vict $13M, Papi $13M, Gomes $5M ) +9M next FA(s)

    2015: $35M (Vict $13M) + $22M on next FA(s)

    2016: $40M all for future FA signings

    2017: $40M all for future FA signings

    2018: $21M all for future FA signings

     

    So, in a sense, we traded AGon, CC, Beckett, and Punto for

    Webster, DLR, Holt...

    and...

    Dempster, Victorino, Papi, Drew, Gomes

    and...

    $131M to spend on FAs from 2014 to 2017.

     

    You can basically just say we got all that for AGon.

     

    We still have this to spend to even up the trade:

    $9M  2014

    $35M 2015

    $35M 2016

    $21M 2017

    That's $100M...

     

     

    enough to sign a guy like....

     

    ...AGon!

     

    Sox4ever

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

     

    We still have this to spend to even up the trade:

    $9M  2014

    $35M 2015

    $35M 2016

    $21M 2017

    That's $100M...

     

     

    enough to sign a guy like....

     

    ...AGon!

     

    Or a guy like....Ellsbury?

     

    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Personally I don't like comparing this trade to the Pedro trade.  The two transactions are just too different.  When we traded for Pedro we acquired one of the best pitchers in history for next to nothing.  This trade was a very advantageous transaction but it was more of a cleansing of sins, a lifting of burdens.  

     



    The Pedro trade has to be considered the best of all, so far, and you are right, it is hard to compare the two.

     

    We did give up two very highly regarded pitching prospects for Pedro: Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr. While Pavano did not turn out great, he did have some fine seasons and brought the Expos Cliff Floyd in a later deal. Armas had some early success with the Expos, but never amounted to that much.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    But the Pedro deal needs to be considered as buying one year of Pedro's time.  Theoretically, he could have left after one year.  The Tek/Lowe deal was the acquisition of 12 years worth of time.  It is difficult to compare any of the deals.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    We still have this to spend to even up the trade:

    $9M  2014

    $35M 2015

    $35M 2016

    $21M 2017

    That's $100M...

     

     

    enough to sign a guy like....

     

    ...AGon!

     

    Or a guy like....Ellsbury?

     

    That would ruin everything. It might make it the 4th best trade at best.

    Learn the lesson from CC and pass on guys like Ellsbury for anything close to $100M. (I wouldn't even offer $50M/5, let alone the $70+M/5 he will likely get.)

     

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    Gonzo I don't quite get,  he is a great player but seems to have an I don't care attitude and as someone sais earlier, losing follows him around.

    One of the things that gets overlooked with Gonzo, and many others, is the aging factor.  When guys are signed to long-term contracts, it is almost understood that he'll be better earlier and worse later.  We got Gonzo for two of his earlier years, and LAD gets him for his 6 declining years.  $21M is fine earlier.  $21M+ is going to seem like a bear at age 35-36.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    But the Pedro deal needs to be considered as buying one year of Pedro's time.  Theoretically, he could have left after one year.  The Tek/Lowe deal was the acquisition of 12 years worth of time.  It is difficult to compare any of the deals.

    Excellent point about the one year of Pedro, but had we not traded for him, I'm not sure we'd have won a bidding war to get him after his tremedous 1997 and 1998 seasons.

    The 12 years of VTek and Lowe for a couple months of Slocumb was brilliant. Side note: we also got Craig Hansen and Michael Bowden as compensation for losing Lowe to free agency. Later, Hansen was part of the Manny deal that brought us J Bay. Michael Bowden was traded for Marlon Byrd. Brentz and Workman were obtained after losing Bay to free agency. It's the trade that just keeps on giving...

    Sox4ever

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

    Iceman you might have also noted, since it is a team game, that the Sox have the best record in their league and the Dodgers are in last place in their division. 

    A Gon is a good player, though he wasn't a fit in Boston, but losing teams seem to follow him around.

         


    Trollbaby, 

    It would be great if people like you would check a players record before making dumb blanket statements about a player. From 2006-2010 San Diego had two losing seasons sandwiched between years in which they won 88, 89 and 90 games in 2010. Those aren't exactly losing teams and in 2011 with the Sox they won 90 games and I wouldn't blame the September collapse on Agon. If you're not counting thats an average of 89 wins a year in four of his six seasons before 2012 with the Sox and one player out of 25 cannot be blamed for losing years. So your assumption that losing teams follow Agon around is a load of BS. 

    Hetch

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    enough to sign a guy like....

     

    ...AGon!

     

    Or a guy like....Ellsbury?

     

    That would ruin everything. It might make it the 4th best trade at best.

    Learn the lesson from CC and pass on guys like Ellsbury for anything close to $100M. (I wouldn't even offer $50M/5, let alone the $70+M/5 he will likely get.)

     

     

     



    We're going to disagree on this, and I'm usually one to stay away from long term contracts. 

    I've been on-again, off-again about resigning Ells.  Off when he's not there and on when he is there.  This guy makes the offense go.  This is an entirely different team with Ells leading off, and he and Iggy are complementing one another well in the lineup. 

    I don't think it's appropriate to compare Ells with CC.  Ells has proven he can play in Boston, and not everyone can.  CC proved that everyone can't, regardless of talent. 

    I'd be happy to sign him @ 5/$75.  I'm aware that speed is usually the first thing to go, but Ells would be 34 in the LAST year of his contract.  It's reasonable to think that we'd have three excellent years and two good years from that contract.  The way contracts are escalating $15M/year in 2018 could very well be a bargain. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    Just announced that Beckett is having season ending surgery.

     

     

      http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/29/josh-beckett-will-undergo-surgery-miss-rest-of-2013-season/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    The A-Gon fiasco, and it is a fiasco, is one of my favorite subjects. I'm including CC in this subject matter. With Crawford, the intent seemed to be to keep him away from the Yankees, in some sort of macho financial stare down. Turned out, the Bombers never wanted him, as they were happy with Gardner. Personally, I wanted Jason Werth, a RH power hitter who also provides very good defense in RF. The 40 HR's a year A-Gon player was never going to happen in Fenway, that kind of production is so rare, it's reached occasionally by baseball imortals such as Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski, and the more mortal class of puffed up sluggers like Mo Vaughan and David Ortiz. A-Gon's first month with Boston was a train wreck of LOB and warning track fly balls that led to comparisons to Jose Offerman, and not Jose Canseco. Then Adrian went on a six week tear, that was pretty dang good. By June 25th he had slugged 16 homers had 71 RBI and was batting .358. His next 86 games were decent, but not Ruthian by any stretch, 11  46 .318. A full year later, June 25 2012, he had produced 17  84 .290, and for the season (2012) he had produced 6 38 .263. Very pedestrian  numbers for a 1B, and terrible numbers for the lynch pin of your offense.

    The best part of his acquisition though was his approach at the plate, as Senor Ortiz took note, and started going the other way, and hitting the ball simlply where it was pitched. If there is a redeeming quality to his time in Boston, that has to be it, a fact that rarely gets mentioned. Meanwhile ol' Adrian has finally passed Jose Offerman on the all time Dodger HR list, 13-8.

    The other opportunity that was missed, due to all the financial constraints was a chance to get Hunter Pence from Philly. Pence turned into a motivating force in the clubhouse with his will to win and strong production, since he's been in SF (139 games), he's posted a 19 85 .258 line. Boston's four outfielders this year have combined for the same 19 homers (259 games).

    Anyhoo, The Trade, saved the club, the team and the fans, guess it was God's will.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    The A-Gon fiasco, and it is a fiasco, is one of my favorite subjects. I'm including CC in this subject matter. With Crawford, the intent seemed to be to keep him away from the Yankees, in some sort of macho financial stare down. Turned out, the Bombers never wanted him, as they were happy with Gardner. Personally, I wanted Jason Werth, a RH power hitter who also provides very good defense in RF.



    Werth has been a horrendous bust too.

    The other big free agent signing that year was Adam Dunn, and he has also been a horrendous bust.

    Crawford/Werth/Dunn should be enough to scare the daylights out of any GM thinking about the next FA splash.

     

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

    Carl Crawford nearing rehab assignment

    Dodgers manager Don Mattingly said Thursday that Carl Crawford (hamstring) is "getting closer to going out on a rehab assignment."

    Crawford, who is recovering from a left hamstring strain, has progressed to running curves at the team's spring training complex and is evidently close to game-ready. The Dodgers expect Crawford back in the lineup prior to the All-Star break.

     

     

     

     

    Josh Beckett (arm) begins throwing program

    Josh Beckett (arm) began playing catch on Wednesday.

    It's the first time he's thrown since being diagnosed with a nerve issue in his pitching arm a month ago. Beckett is optimistic that he can return to pitch this season, but the possibility of season-ending surgery is there if he doesn't feel right while ramping up his throwing program.  

     

     

     

     

    Adrian Gonzalez | First Baseman Adrian Gonzalez went 1-for-4 with his ninth homer of the season against the Padres on Saturday. The homer came in the sixth inning and was the Dodgers' first hit of the game off Padres starter Edinson Volquez. Despite the relatively low home run count, Gonzalez has 46 RBI to go with the nine bombs this year. Jun 22 - 10:43 PM       Nick Punto ( back) went 0-for-4 with three strikeouts in his return to the Dodgers' lineup Wednesday. Punto sat out Tuesday's game after making an early exit Monday with a stiff lower back. The veteran infielder is hitting .315 with a .789 OPS in 41 games this season.   Now we know what ......Mo ...Larry....Curly ..would look like in Dodger blue....la la la la la la la. 




     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    It was an incredible trade. Gonzalez is going to be nothing more than he is now, a 20 HR, 115, .310 type of guy.  Not a Joey Votto, CarGo, etc. 

    It was a steal and that is putting it lightly.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    The A-Gon fiasco, and it is a fiasco, is one of my favorite subjects. I'm including CC in this subject matter. With Crawford, the intent seemed to be to keep him away from the Yankees, in some sort of macho financial stare down. Turned out, the Bombers never wanted him, as they were happy with Gardner. Personally, I wanted Jason Werth, a RH power hitter who also provides very good defense in RF. The 40 HR's a year A-Gon player was never going to happen in Fenway, that kind of production is so rare, it's reached occasionally by baseball imortals such as Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski, and the more mortal class of puffed up sluggers like Mo Vaughan and David Ortiz. A-Gon's first month with Boston was a train wreck of LOB and warning track fly balls that led to comparisons to Jose Offerman, and not Jose Canseco. Then Adrian went on a six week tear, that was pretty dang good. By June 25th he had slugged 16 homers had 71 RBI and was batting .358. His next 86 games were decent, but not Ruthian by any stretch, 11  46 .318. A full year later, June 25 2012, he had produced 17  84 .290, and for the season (2012) he had produced 6 38 .263. Very pedestrian  numbers for a 1B, and terrible numbers for the lynch pin of your offense.

    The best part of his acquisition though was his approach at the plate, as Senor Ortiz took note, and started going the other way, and hitting the ball simlply where it was pitched. If there is a redeeming quality to his time in Boston, that has to be it, a fact that rarely gets mentioned. Meanwhile ol' Adrian has finally passed Jose Offerman on the all time Dodger HR list, 13-8.

    The other opportunity that was missed, due to all the financial constraints was a chance to get Hunter Pence from Philly. Pence turned into a motivating force in the clubhouse with his will to win and strong production, since he's been in SF (139 games), he's posted a 19 85 .258 line. Boston's four outfielders this year have combined for the same 19 homers (259 games).

    Anyhoo, The Trade, saved the club, the team and the fans, guess it was God's will.

     



    What stat does this line refer to because for the year Agon's stats were 18hrs with 108rbis and close to .300avg. The power numberswhen Agon came over were a false projection of the local media and total BS. Except for one huge year in San Diego Agon was a 25-35 home run hitter driving 100 plus runs a year which is what Agon provided the Sox plus great defense at 1B. Again the talk of his not being a team leader and his personality were fabrication put out to us by the local media which is totally meaningless. The man gave us almost two full very productive seasons. Who cares if he's a team leader or not. 

    for the season (2012) he had produced 6 38 .263. Very pedestrian  numbers for a 1B, 

     

     

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    It was a great trade for us , but I don't think the Dodgers are crying in their beer. They are spending big and putting together an outstanding team. Puig looks like a coming superstar. They just brought up  a young pitcher who is throwing 100 mph, with a nice change up to go with it. They are gaining ground fast. I expect them to take charge of the NL West in the second half. I think they are willing to absorb Beckett to get AGon and Crawford. So , the trade gave both teams what they needed.  

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to ADG's comment:

    It was an incredible trade. Gonzalez is going to be nothing more than he is now, a 20 HR, 115, .310 type of guy.  Not a Joey Votto, CarGo, etc. 

    It was a steal and that is putting it lightly.



    AGon is a very good player, but his numbers do not warrant $22M a year, so although it hurt to lose him, if his money is spent wisely, we can gain from his loss too. 

    No matter who we sign, we almost can't do any worse with the money than CC and Beckett.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    I never understood how a baseball fan could love this trade.  Whatever else you want to say about Gonzalez, during the time he was with the team, he was the best position player on the Red Sox roster - period.   I can channel my inner accountant and understand why this was a good move for a team that wants to stay under the luxury tax threshold, but I've never understood how anybody as a fan could celebrate losing their best hitter.  Why don't I see any  Pedroia & Hanrahan for cash suggestions on the trade proposals thread?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    In response to slomag's comment:

    I never understood how a baseball fan could love this trade.  Whatever else you want to say about Gonzalez, during the time he was with the team, he was the best position player on the Red Sox roster - period.   I can channel my inner accountant and understand why this was a good move for a team that wants to stay under the luxury tax threshold, but I've never understood how anybody as a fan could celebrate losing their best hitter.  Why don't I see any  Pedroia & Hanrahan for cash suggestions on the trade proposals thread?




    In a sense, we traded AGon for

    Webster, DLR, Holt...

    and...

    Dempster, Victorino, Papi, Drew, Gomes

    and...

    $131M to spend on FAs from 2014 to 2017....

     

    We still have this to spend to even up the trade:

    $9M  2014

    $35M 2015

    $35M 2016

    $21M 2017

    That's $100M...

     

     

    enough to sign a guy like....

     

    ...AGon!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from patrickford. Show patrickford's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    "Ells has proven he can play in Boston, and not everyone can.  CC proved that everyone can't, regardless of talent. "

     

    Agree 100%. Unless the money is absolutely stupid, the Sox should try to resign him. 

     



     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    It will be "stupid money", and Ellsbury has proven he can do great for one season and pretty good for a few others. Is that worth $15M+ a year for many years?

     

    Sox4ever

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Revisiting the big trade....Dodger/Sox....how are some of those guys doing?

    To think that money does not matter is foolish. Of course it does. The Dodgers are spending freely and building a team that will be good for years.  They have already topped two million in attendance. They have all kinds of TV money.  They don't worry about big money contracts or signing bonuses.  So, we didn't put one over on them with the trade. They got what they wanted.  And , we got what we wanted. Things have changed. It used to be that only the Yankees could out spend us. That is no longer the case.

    Stabbed by Foulke

     
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