Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

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    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark : Yup.  I agree that he is not in the conversation for say the 20 best pitchers of all time but his #'s are remarkable no matter how you slice them.  He did choke in the most pressure packed outing of his career.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    He did choke in the most pressure packed outing of his career.


    and how would you know which one that was
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark:
    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark : He did choke in the most pressure packed outing of his career . and how would you know which one that was
    Posted by pinstripezac32


    I don't.  I do know how many World Series game 7's he pitched in though. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

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    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark : I don't.  I do know how many World Series game 7's he pitched in though. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards



    my bad

     I thought you were refering to 04

    2001 was a strange WS

    911 then 2 crazy 9th inning comebacks

    and then almost stealing the series with a late soriano HR

    schilling and randy johnson ruled that series

    and deserved to win it





    I still don't think it was his most pressured save

    they were going for their 4 crown in a row -how much pressure there ?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark:
    As for the 'can't pitch more than an inning' notion, in the postseason Rivera has logged 139 innings in 94 appearances, or about 1.5 innings per appearance.  He has a postseason ERA of .71 and a WHIP of .77.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut

    Come on, man, you should know by now not to confuse them with facts.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    Game 7 of an epic World Series, bottom 9, 1 run lead, I seriously doubt Mo, or anyone was thinking about the 3 previous years and saying "eh, we don't need this one."

    I don't say this to be in any way disparaging to Mo, he is the greatest closer of all time, case closed but that situation is the ultimate test of a closer and he coughed it up.  For a closer, that is down by 3, bases loaded.

     I always that Torre botched that a little, because if Jeter is normal depth he catches LGons flair.  And Mo has always gotten LH to hit those types of soft liners to SS.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    LOL ... I always will remember his impersonation of Charlie Brown When Bill Mueller Undressed him in game 4 !! He has been a great reliver, certainly one of the best, and that was another reason 2004 felt so good, so good, so good !! 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

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    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark:
    The saves total may well be what the casual fan will look to as the bench mark for greatness, but anyone who has studied the game knows that his below 1 ERA in postseason games which amounts to almost two full years of regular season games is the true bench mark for Mo. The other thing with him is that he has failed, but unlike all others before him, he comes back and doesn't allow that failure to remain in his head. I have watched Fingers, Sutter and Gossage all in their prime. I can fuly appreciate their greatness, but in the end, Mo still stands above them all. We like to point fingers at this era in baseball as the steroid years. So let's add that to Mo's resume. He was busting bats of all the juiced players. Their cheating still could not over-ride his greatness when the game was on the line. And regarding that 3 out 9th inning. Let's ask all the closers during the 2009 post season how that wqorked out for them. Oh, that's right, every oe of them got destroyed except one closer. Mo! He is the greatest Yankee since Mickey Mantle.
    Posted by jesseyeric


    Let's also not forget he pitched that PS with an injured rib cage, which reduced his velocity to about 88 MPH (This makes me think he can pitch 4 more yrs, albeit a reduced workload,  if he wants to); no matter, and he had a 5 out save I believe in Game 6. And, it can be argued that he was better than Mick.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    I'll never get why it's so hard for some Red Sox fans to compliment a Yankee. Nobody hopes they go 0-162 more than me, but Mariano Rivera is in my opinion the greatest closer of all time. Should be (but won't be) unanimous first-ballot Hall of Famer.


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

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    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark : Let's also not forget he pitched that PS with an injured rib cage, which reduced his velocity to about 88 MPH (This makes me think he can pitch 4 more yrs, albeit a reduced workload,  if he wants to); no matter, and he had a 5 out save I believe in Game 6. And, it can be argued that he was better than Mick.
    Posted by nhsteven


    That'll put him around Wilhelm's age. Both basically one-pitch wonders.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark:
    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark : Let's also not forget he pitched that PS with an injured rib cage, which reduced his velocity to about 88 MPH (This makes me think he can pitch 4 more yrs, albeit a reduced workload,  if he wants to); no matter, and he had a 5 out save I believe in Game 6. And, it can be argued that he was better than Mick.
    Posted by nhsteven


     Yea, a guy who pitches 60 innings a year is better then the Mick !! Steinbrenner's money made Mo the saves leader. Like a poster said earlier put him on another team and he would have to pitch 5 more years to even be close and he certainly wouldn't be coming into as many 2 and 3 run lead games. The guy is great at what he does there is no question but to compare him with a player that humps it 9 innings a game for 162 games a year is a little much.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALaGatorAL. Show ALaGatorAL's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    I stand corrected  he pitches on avg 78 innings a season... My mistake
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    I think Mo couldve done exactly what the old timers did if he were asked to do it...he is awesome at any stage of the game and would be so for one, two, or three innings I believe. I totally agree that the save stat is a joke and meaningless. A save should be a one run ballgame or with the tying run on base. Give them a hold+ for wrapping up games with a 2-3 run lead...zilch for the rest.

    This is why I cant wrap my head around paying Paps 15 mil for what he does...60 innings of mostly low-risk pitching. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

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    Game 7 of an epic World Series, bottom 9, 1 run lead, I seriously doubt Mo, or anyone was thinking about the 3 previous years and saying "eh, we don't need this one." I don't say this to be in any way disparaging to Mo, he is the greatest closer of all time, case closed but that situation is the ultimate test of a closer and he coughed it up.  For a closer, that is down by 3, bases loaded.  I always that Torre botched that a little, because if Jeter is normal depth he catches LGons flair.  And Mo has always gotten LH to hit those types of soft liners to SS.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards



    I seriously doubt Mo, or anyone was thinking about the 3 previous years and saying "eh, we don't need this one."


    me neither

    but why would he or anyone alse be saying

     '' eh this is the most pressure I ever had ''


    more likely he's thinking I've done this many times B4


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark:
    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark :  Yea, a guy who pitches 60 innings a year is better then the Mick !! Steinbrenner's money made Mo the saves leader. Like a poster said earlier put him on another team and he would have to pitch 5 more years to even be close and he certainly wouldn't be coming into as many 2 and 3 run lead games. The guy is great at what he does there is no question but to compare him with a player that humps it 9 innings a game for 162 games a year is a little much.
    Posted by ALaGatorAL

    Point of parliamentary procedure, but The Mick only played more than 150 games twice in his career. And never more than 153. I know he had numerous injuries (some of which, you could argue, were of his own doing).
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rizzuto1965. Show Rizzuto1965's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark


    Prior to becoming the Yankees closer, in 1996, Mariano Rivera served as set up man for John Wettland.  That season, Rivera faced 425 batters (for comparison, David Robertson has faced 261 batters this season).  

    Consider that Mariano appeared in 61 games that season and pitched 107.2 innings (as opposed to Robertson's 67 appearances this season).  Though appearing in fewer games, Mariano faced nearly 40% more batters.  I believe this illustrates an important separation between relievers today and then; however, Mariano Rivera thrived in both.

    That season, Mo surrendered only 13 extra-base hits, and he recorded more than three outs 41 times. Moreover, Mariano recorded more than four outs 40 times that season and recorded six outs or more 35 times.  And, Mariano recorded nine outs 8 times in 1996.  In other words, Mo pitched 38% of Robertson's total innings thus far, in only eight relief appearances.

    Mariano is hardly just a one-inning pitcher.  In fact, one only need look at 1996 to see that he had already proven that early in his career...and that was prior to his mastering the pitch everyone knows him by - the cutter.

    Was Gossage a great relief pitcher - yes, a Hall of Famer; however, Gossage saved over 30 games only twice in his career.  The high point being 33 in 1980,  in which he pitched 99 innings.  Gossage - as a reliever - pitched over 100 innings 4 times, 141.2 in 1975 for the White Sox being the high water mark.  Gossage finished his career with 310 saves.  Rivera, though used differently (and in the teeth of the steroid era), will end his career with twice as many saves to his credit.

    And, if it is so easy to do today, then why are there no closers who currently project to save 500 games, much less 600?  As great as Jon Papelbon is - and I do believe he is a great closer - he would need to save 40 games per year for the next ten years to eclispse Mariano Rivera.  

    By some of the comments rendered, I suspect there are a great many x-box and wii masters posting.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

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    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark : I don't.  I do know how many World Series game 7's he pitched in though. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    Since he has WC rings for an entire hand, (which must make a nice bookcase display), I think he can deal with it.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42nyc. Show 42nyc's posts

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    but to compare him with a player that humps it 9 innings a game for 162 games a year is a little much.
    Posted by ALaGatorAL

    who are these guys pitching 9 innings a game for 162 games a year?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark:
    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark :  Yea, a guy who pitches 60 innings a year is better then the Mick !! Steinbrenner's money made Mo the saves leader. Like a poster said earlier put him on another team and he would have to pitch 5 more years to even be close and he certainly wouldn't be coming into as many 2 and 3 run lead games. The guy is great at what he does there is no question but to compare him with a player that humps it 9 innings a game for 162 games a year is a little much.
    Posted by ALaGatorAL


    You're preaching to the choir, just look at my avatar. If he didn't wreck his knee his rookie season, he might have been better than Babe Ruth. But it did happen, and he was still pretty good (It didn't help that he was a big time partier either); including possessing some of the longest clouts (official & unoffical) in history, and the fastest time ever recorded (3.0 seconds, pre-injury) from home to 1st. Casey Stengel called him "the best one-legged player I ever saw". Even after the injury, he was still fast; but come every September, with all those leg tapings,  (and at the end, even earlier), he was shot; except for the WS.


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

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    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark : who are these guys pitching 9 innings a game for 162 games a year?
    Posted by 42nyc


    Mind you, Gossage has a point; but Rivera has gone multiple innings in key games (Recall Game 7, 2003 ALCS, when he went 3, maybe even a little more). He can't do that NOW, however. The fact that he's gone 1+ a few times this yr is a bad choice.
     
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    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    Comparing players of one era to another is always a dicey proposition.  Some things just don't fit.  But, era, whip, HR allowed and SO/9 are fairly potable from one era to another.  Sure these guys had more multiple innings saves but that is due in large part to that was the way it was done in their time.  That is not to say Rivera couldn't he just didn't.  The essential strategy of baseball has changed and the idea today is to shorten the game.

    On the flip side Rivera had to square off against a lot of PED aided 2B and the like  many of whom likely would have been merely .250 hitters with barely warning track power.  Sutter, Fingers and to a large extent Gossage had no such obstacle.

    All in all, they are all great but Rivera is special, .. the best.  As was pointed out if I had a one run lead and needed one inning in game 7 of the WS and could choose any of these guys in their prime Rivera is that guy.  If anybody thinks otherwise, .. feel free.  It would be hard to go wrong with any of them.  
     
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    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    "Yeah, but game 7 of the WS is bigger than big--it's the ultimate."

    Since he's been in a lot more WS than any other closer that is not surprising.  It's not that people ignore Rivera's failures in the post season it's that he's had so much more success in context it's not a significant weakness, .. or anywhere near the "ultimate".

     
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    In Response to Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark : who are these guys pitching 9 innings a game for 162 games a year?
    Posted by 42nyc


    Pappelbon.  He does it every year.
     
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    by Greg Couch/FoxSports: It’s amazing how smart you can make someone look if you dumb things down enough. New York Yankees closer Mariano Rivera has been hailed as a baseball god this week for breaking the all-time saves record, and it’s true that no one has ever been better at doing what he does: pitching one inning in relief without giving up three runs.     It is a special skill to jump over the lowest hurdle again and again without ever tripping. But is it the stuff of Willie Mays and Babe Ruth, or even Greg Maddux? The truth is, if you can’t throw one inning without giving up three runs, then you don’t even belong in the big leagues. That has been a huge portion of Rivera’s 603 saves. The save has come to mean something totally different from what it did years ago, from what it did even 15 years ago. Yet his save total is being used to measure him through history, to judge him better than the past, when the guy who closed the game might come in during the seventh inning, bases loaded, no outs, one-run lead. “I used to love that,’’ said Goose Gossage, Hall of Fame reliever. “They used to use and abuse us, but think of the pressure. You couldn’t even let them put the ball in play. “But when I pitched the ninth inning to save a three-run lead, coming in with no one on base, I felt guilty. I would go home and be embarrassed. Rivera is an awesome pitcher, but what he’s doing is easy. It really is.’’ This isn’t to doubt the greatness of Rivera, one of the best relief pitchers of all time. He might even be The Best, though there is no way of knowing because his all-time status is attached to his saves number.    He will probably end up with more than Rollie Fingers and Gossage combined, though Fingers and Gossage are his equals in the best-ever argument. Maybe Bruce Sutter, too. The problem isn’t with Rivera; it’s with the save itself. And it’s with an ESPN mentality that sells the “wow’’ factor and insists that the best today is better than the best ever was before. The numbers and rules and statistics are perverted to prove it. We need a little perspective on Rivera. The past is the place to find it. “Mariano Rivera is a great relief pitcher,’’ Gossage said, and then he paused a couple of seconds and added, “In the modern sense. What he did and what we used to do is apples and oranges. It’s not fair to compare what closers today do with what we did.’’ The truth is, Rivera’s number is a fraud. Rivera isn’t. The number is. The entire save statistic is a mistake, at least the way it’s figured and fabricated. The statistic itself is on steroids, built up and bloated to produce much more than it should, to create a real and marketable excitement over false accomplishments.   It's been a season to remember for Mariano Rivera. Take a look at some of this year's milestone saves .   And it is just another example of our need — mostly the media’s — to tell us that what we’re seeing now is bigger and better than anything before. Ever! That isn’t right. But Rivera has 603 saves. Gossage had 310. Fingers had 341. “Rollie Fingers is the greatest relief pitcher I’ve ever seen,’’ Gossage said. “The save, the way it’s being used today . . . it’s convoluted. When you’ve got a three-run lead and you come in in the ninth inning, if you can’t save that game, then you’re in trouble. You’re not very good.’’ Gossage might sound like one of those old-timers who insists that everything was better in his day. He is forced to fight the modern mentality. But in his case, he’s right. Do you think anyone will ever get to 600 saves again? “Abso-freaking-lutely,’’ Gossage said, only he used a different F-word. “Four or five of us in the past would have gotten there if we’d have been used the way they use these guys now, just to get saves.’’  That includes all, or almost all, of Gossage’s, Fingers', Sutter’s, Sparky Lyle’s, Dan Quisenberry’s and Lee Smith’s careers. Those are the guys Gossage kept mentioning. Just like Rivera, they all could get saves for finishing a game when they pitched the final three innings; or when they entered with the tying run on base, at bat or on deck; or when they threw at least one inning with no more than a three-run lead. The stat was created by legendary Chicago baseball writer Jerome Holtzman, who correctly thought there needed to be some better way to measure relief pitchers. Back then, as Gossage pointed out, the bullpen was just a junk pile of washed-up starters who couldn’t throw nine innings anymore, or guys who weren’t quite good enough to start. Slowly, relievers developed a real value. But then a strange thing happened. The save stat actually changed the game, instead of reflected it. Pitchers became specialists, and managers began to use their relievers in ways to get the save. “They didn’t want to be second-guessed,’’ Gossage said. “I was there for the whole evolution of relief pitchers. Managers wanted to be able to say that they did the right thing, they put in their closer to close. They go by a big Bible of how to use relievers now. Righty faces righty. Lefty faces lefty. Face one batter. Don’t use a closer more than one inning. They use three guys now to do what we used to do by ourselves, two setup guys and a closer. “They’d put me in when we were losing by a run, with men on base, because they needed to get that out. If we had a three-run lead going into the ninth, they didn’t even put me in. Anyone can finish that. Today, if a closer comes in in the eighth inning, it makes headlines. It’s embarrassing.’’ So we called Stats LLC to see whether Gossage knew what he was talking about. How many of Rivera’s 603 saves came when he threw just one inning, entering a game with a three-run lead and no one on base? How many in the same situation with a two-run lead? And what about the same numbers for Gossage?     Here are the numbers: Rivera has had 291 saves in which he pitched one inning, entering a game with no one on base and a three-run lead (129 times) or a two-run lead (162 times). That accounts for almost half of his saves. Gossage? Thirty-three times (13 with a three-run lead and 20 with a two-run lead). That accounts for about 11 percent of his saves. Gossage saved 52 games in which he recorded seven outs or more. How many times has Rivera done that? Once. Trevor Hoffman, whose record Rivera broke, did it twice. During the evolution of the save, it has been only about 15 years since most saves came after throwing one inning or less.   The stat has not stood the test of time, and that has made it appear that Gossage hasn’t, either. It took him nine years to get into the Baseball Hall of Fame, because his spot in history was attached to a number, 310, that didn’t look impressive anymore after he retired. And now, a bigger and better number comes up from the greatest reliever of this generation, and the narrative insists that the number tells a story through history. You know, in some ways, it’s not even fair to Rivera. He has been turned into a ninth-inning specialist thanks to a faulty statistic. When he broke the record against the Minnesota Twins on Monday, he came into the ninth inning with a two-run lead, nobody out. With his unhittable cutter, you just knew the record was his. Thirteen pitches later, he had the save. What had he saved exactly? Rivera has been used for longer stretches in the postseason and been brilliant then, too. Imagine the thrill of watching him in the seventh, bases loaded, one out, tie game. Who knows what he could have done if we hadn’t dumbed things down. But instead, we might have actually shortchanged his greatness.
    Posted by Bill-806'sTwin+


    the truth is that the game evolves and every team has the one inning closer. get in touch with reality. cy young pitched double headers. does that mean seaver, gibson, and any starter in the last century is a fraud?
     
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    Re: Rivera's record is a faulty benchmark

    Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Mariano is the best CLOSER of all time.
    Argue only when you know what you are talking about!
     
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