Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    Papi is toast. We should have rested him like softy said.

    Sox4ever

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    Dug this old thread up to expose the lies of the clown, who now claims he never said Papi would get hurt of he started more than 100-110 games, or that he lost his "pop".

    Notice the repeaated references to "punch and Judy" and a claim that Papi's bat speed was no better than Iggy's.

    Read for yourselves, if you want a good laugh.

    I did some cut and pasting for an easier read...

    softy the clown in his own words...

     

    Softy on Papi earlier this year: count the the denials. Count the absurd positions…

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    I agree with putting Ortiz back on the shelf, as he'll go on the DL if they don't keep around 100 games work load. He's a part-time player from here until the end of that 2 year contract.

     

    (Later he responed to my post about Papi playing more than 100 games…)

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Since Papi came back from the injury, he has played in 8 games out of 10 (in 11 days).

    That's an 80% clip. If he continues at that rate and stays healthy, he'll end up at about 106 games played.

    He won't, not that 106 games is the role he's payed to fill. He's toast as far as being capable of that, anymore.

     

    My guess is he'll play over 90% of the games, if he stays healthy. That would put him at about 120 games. I would not be surprised to see him play in at least 125-130 games (some as a PH'er) this year.

    He isn't starting any 120 games, despite your guess. "At Least" is truly the work of a stooge. At most, even with the PH to try and help you lie with statistics, he'll almost surely "play in" no more than 120 games.

    (Note: Now he denies saying this at all. And more….)

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    (Moonslav59)We have 132 games left and softy says Papi will not start in 106 total games this year or what amounts to 94 of the 132 games left.

    He actually sounds like it's even absurd to expect 106 games started.

     

    Your prevarication isn't exageration, I never once said that Ortiz wound't start 106 total games! I said that unless they rest him frequently, they'll be lucky to get 120 starts out of him.

    The notion that you foresee 120 to 130 starts (or games played) is out on a twig.

    Ortiz is a part-time player, and your claim that you foresee 120 to 130 starts for 2013, and a repeat for 2014, is a total fantasy.

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ortiz's condition is obvious. It's fragile, and exactly the same issue that broke him down a year ago. These issues don't get better with age. Whether it's age or the typical tendon and ligament pathology from years of PED use, that remains to be seen. Either way, he's a part-time player, at best.

     

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ortiz with another sick day. He needs it, but those that claim he's at least 120 to 130 games started are delusional.In response to softlaw2's comment:

     _______________________________________________________________________

    (Moonslav59)

    Again, I'm not blaming Papi, but Farrell needs to start playing Papi 19 out of 20 games or 15 out 16.

    Manager John is correct, and you don't have a clue, as usual. Ortiz will bring down if he isn't used as a part-time player. The time off helped him, tonight, but he can't produce the year long production that the Red Sox need.

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Yes, and "the next night" is the point. Manager John needs to keep him in the status of a 100 to 110 game part-time player. If they go for more, he'll break down.

    ______________________________________________

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Exactly what statistic do you base this on? So far he IS hitting; last year he hit too. In fact, its been a very long time since he hasn't produced.

    There wasn't any "last year". There was a few months of a partial season and then shelf.

    Hermida was hitting "so far" after a few games. Ortiz is punch and judy and his tiny sample with come crashing down. He's paid to hit the ball out and drive it deep in the gaps, for 140 plus workload.

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    I see no reason to expect a marked decline in HR per PA or Slg% from 2012beyond natural age regression.

    Thanks for making my case, stooge.

    PA can't come from the disabled list. His HR per season is the issue, stooge. Leave it to you to bash Ortiz and follow Olney's lead to release him in 2010, then fall asleep and fail to recognize what a washed up middle of the order punch and judy hitter looks like.

    You went on and on about washed up Wastefield, and you will go on and on about washed up Ortiz. At this point, he's a punch and judy pinch hitter guy who splits time at DH.

    Ortiz's splits mean nothing for a punch and judy guy with bad wheels. If he starts 130 or more games, he will be exposed and you won't be posting his plits. You will be crying like you were in Wakefield and no market. You fail to see the obvious, and have the planning skills of Red Sox managment.

    Over this two year contract, Ortiz and the "natural age regression" will manifest in DL stints and RBI and HR season averages that reflect a bench guy, part-time DH and pinch hitter.

    His latest words reflect the reality that he knows there will be no more fooling and getting a big contract anymore, which reflects the reality that Ortiz has bad wheels that aren't going to get better without PED. Unless the Red Sox use him as a part-time player, he's going back on the DL in less than 3 months.

     

    Lowell had no business on the roster, that last season, and said so himself.

    As for Oritz, I've been his biggest supporter on this board. But the reality of 2012 and this spring are clear, he's done as far as having the constitution to produce year long levels. They need to rest him frequently if they hope to avoid another breakdown like 2012. This should be his final season, but this managment seems to wait until it gets embarrassing before they move contacts like S. Drew and Ortiz into the "sunk cost" that InEpsein would use, long after the damage was done from managment refusing to admit the mistake before way too much time had passed by.

    I stated Ortiz would return to his production season levels, after you and other wrote him off back in 2009 and 2010. What he's doing in 9 games isn't even remotely similar to where he was, physically, 2 years ago.

    Management must not "ride Ortiz until he breaks down", which, even though they gave him a couple of games off, is not something managment is likely to do. I believe they plan to try and ride him for 130 to 140 games. But regardless of what they do, they had better stop doing nothing about the middle of the lineup slugging issue for 2013 and 2014 and beyond.  

    ________________________

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

    Great time to trade Ortiz, since he'll never make to retirment at the end of 2014 without becoming Tim Wakefield and "the fans deserve a chance to see me".

    I was Ortiz's biggest defender, until this winter. I don't blame him for taking advantage of Cherry, but his chance to retire with the Red Sox should be a Nomar 1 day contract. Great time to trade him, now.

     

     

     

     

     

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    A-Gon wasn't hitting very many home runs.

    Over 2011 and 2012, AGon has over 200 RBI's. Ortiz has 75% of that amount because he's been on the shelf since last summer.

    It's about slugging all season and driving in runs. Ortiz is a punch and judy guy, now, which started with his breakdown last summer that caused him to produce 1/2 season production.

    It's a pipe dream to think he's going to have 100 RBI's and a high slugging average. Ortiz is a punch and judy guy, now, who offers next to nothing by gettong base.

    I just commented, before the fact, that it would be up to Napoli and Middlebrooks to pick-up the slack that is punch and judy aging out, Ortiz.

     

     

    4/25/13

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    I'm not praying for him to fail, I'm praying for him to be traded. His role can't be a partial season middle of the order producer. Great time to trade him, now.

    As you always rake others for...name names.

    Trade Papi for who?

    _____________________

    4/27/13

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ortiz has looked great, with 2 rest days and aobut a week of games played. I'm going to review this thread, after he plays about 100 games, which might be around all the games he plays for the season.

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     __________________________________

    But , seriously , he can't DH in both games of a doubleheader ? Give me a break .

    An old guy sits out for about 8 months. He then comes back and can't DH for a doubleheader. Great point, there's a problem, alright. After the break in between games, he sits on a sofa and takes a nap like Griffey, Jr. did, but he can't DH in the 2nd game.

    I've been as big a supporter of Ortiz as anyone on this Board, but enough is enough. If the guy breaks down because he cann't DH 3 gimes in 2 days then let's get it over with. The notion that more time is going to save Ortiz's health is utterly absurd. He either has the Constituion to go or he doesn't.

     

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    This team was built for Ortiz to provide year long slugging. That's not going to happen. He's a punch and judy hitter with no more bat speed than Iglesias, who doesn't have the Constiution to sustain season long slugging production. Get it over and put him on the field for what he's paid to do, and if he breaks down then 60 day DL him and allow the team to settle in and adjust to a style of baseball that relies on speed and top defense. This team isn't going to get the season home record job done when it comes to trying to outslug the AL, and bottom feeding off weak slugging teams like the Rays isn't going to offset the problem. The sooner they expose Ortiz's patent infirmities and adjust, the better. 

    81 games are played in Fenway, and no more than 18 games are played in any other single venue. Losing to the O's and hapless Royals at home is a serious problem that the current early record doesn't erase. This team isn't going to get it done with Ortiz slugging, even though the GM constructed it that way. The sooner the realization and adjustments are made the greater the chance the team and the manager adjusts and tries to make the playoffs with a team character of team defense and speed and adequate overall pitching staff performance.

    Because of Fenway, this GM is incompetent in understanding value and allocation of labor costs in trade and FA market. This is how great managers earn their money, despite the GM. My mind is still open on Toronto bust manager John, who does seem to understand confidence and approach to pitching. Beyond that, my mind is still open. We'll see, but I'm watching how he handles and adjusts to the fact Ortiz aint gonna get it done in the slugging department.

     

     

    4/27/13

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ortiz didn't do his job today or tonight. He's paid to slug, not single and go station to station. If he deosn't start slugging over the the fences and deep in the gaps, he's de facto done. No one has been a bigger supporter of Ortiz, but the 2 year contract was embarrassing. This should be his final season, and 2011 was probably his last high slugging production full season.

     

     

    5/2/13

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ortiz is riding the bench early, which is necessary but proof that the 2 year deal was both a bidding against the Red Sox case and a value mistake. If they had signed him 2 a 2 year base 11 deal like I said to at the end of 2011, he would be correctly retiring at the end of this year.

     

     

    On Red Sox chances in 2013:

    6/5/13

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ellsbury BA  .249 OBP .319  SLG .348

    S. Drew BA .222. OBP .317 SLG .389

    2013, S. Drew v LP:

    BA .175 OBP .261 SLG .350 OPS .611

     

    Carp 1B/LF  Career .BA .259  OBP .329 .SLG  435

    Red Sox are worse at home than on the road. This payroll and this roster has a lot of work to do in the next 111 games.Continue to be impressed with what Manager John's done with this roster.S. Drew should be the UIF bench guy/pinch hitter. Ellsbury and Bradley and Shane makes zero sense

    Gomes and Carp isn't going to get it done. Middlebrooks must come back healthy enough to slug at high season long production level

    Ortiz can't play 8 out of every 10 games all season. He also can't play everyday and hit 35HR and hit 130 RBI's, either.They need to hope that Middlebrooks is able to do 35 to 40HR, despite the injury. He's currenlty on pase for 28 to 30HR.

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    I took note that you think Ortiz will get injured very soon and miss the rest of the season.....

    I've noted that you think Ortiz will start in over 130 games. I've already noted that I think Ortiz will get injured unless his total season workload is limited to about 100 to 110 games.

     

    Don't let the facts disrupt your prevaricating trolling.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    In response to RedSoxFireman's comment:

    where are 120 plus games started and finished?

    2 year contract not 1

    ped ? takes year or more to resolve

    ortiz has record of ped issue

     

     



    He's a punch and judy hitter with no more bat speed than Iglesias

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    He isn't starting any 120 games, despite your guess. "At Least" is truly the work of a stooge. At most, even with the PH to try and help you lie with statistics, he'll almost surely "play in" no more than 120 games.

    He started and got all the possible PAs he could get in 133 of 137 games played. Being pinch run for in the 8th or 9th is not something you mentioned in your initial position. You claimed I'd " lie" by using PH games of which he had 1, and now you "lie" by subtracting games he played into the 8th, 9th, 10th, and even 14th innings solely because he was removed for a pinch runner.

    You have earned your "clown" status.

    Still wish we had traded him?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    Let's hope Papi punches and Judy's another one tonight!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    The clown claimed Papi has "declined since 2009". Let's take a closer look:

    OPS

    '08-'09: .830

    '10-'11: .926

    '12-'13: .985

    While it's certain true papi declined from his 2007 and prior numbers in 2008 and 2009, and he has not returned to that level again, he has not "declined since 2009". He has actually improved on the numbers since the 2008-2009 stretch.

    Another view:

    '08-'10: .854

    '11-'13: .972

    His career OPS is .930. It's hard to view .985 or .972 as a decline.

    The man is aging well.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    In response to RedSoxFireman's comment:

    where are 120 plus games started and finished?

    2 year contract not 1

    ped ? takes year or more to resolve

    ortiz has record of ped issue

     

     




    Game, set and match.

    You lose,...again.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    softy really thinks a game Papi plays until the 8th or 9th inning and is removed for a pinch runner shouldn't count. He'll twist and turn any stat to match his warped positions.

    Besides, he never said "games started and finished" earlier this year, so he's moving the goalposts for the millionth time. He made it clear we should not count pinch hit games in the totals, and I agree, but when Papi gets every PA possible in a game, it should count. Papi was removed in the 14th inning once, does softy not want to count that game on a technicality?

     
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    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    it's terrible that papi's heel/age/injuries/ineffectiveness have prevented him from playing this year.  he is missing a really great run and what appears to be great comraderie between teammates....oh well.  hope he is enjoying retirement.

     
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    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    softy really thinks a game Papi plays until the 8th or 9th inning and is removed for a pinch runner shouldn't count. He'll twist and turn any stat to match his warped positions.

    Besides, he never said "games started and finished" earlier this year, so he's moving the goalposts for the millionth time. He made it clear we should not count pinch hit games in the totals, and I agree, but when Papi gets every PA possible in a game, it should count. Papi was removed in the 14th inning once, does softy not want to count that game on a technicality?

    Moon..oh no you dih-ent!! Tongue OutWink


     
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    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    I check in on this forum every now and then when I'm bored.  I can always count on softy to give me something to chuckle about.  This thread is like the equivalent of the NY Giants troll's thread about the G Men winning 10 games this year on the Pats forum.  Never let it die.  LMFAO.

     
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    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    Wow...so as awesome as the Sox are playing..the board decided to bump up a 6 month old thread rather than give major props to Napoli for a great hit last night..?  Just....wow.

     

    Oh..and hey..how about the pitching..?? Great isn't it? Although I see that at least Lackey got some props.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    Wow...so as awesome as the Sox are playing..the board decided to bump up a 6 month old thread rather than give major props to Napoli for a great hit last night..?  Just....wow. 



    Huh?  It was bumped after Game 2 and before Game 3.

     

     
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    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    Wow...so as awesome as the Sox are playing..the board decided to bump up a 6 month old thread rather than give major props to Napoli for a great hit last night..?  Just....wow. 



    Huh?  It was bumped after Game 2 and before Game 3.

     



    Okay fair enough. I haven't been here in a few days..I was reacting to the many comments that were posted today. My point still stands. Why go in search of a 6 month old thread just to take shots at the Op? Especially when ...as I stated..the team is doing so well??

     
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    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    Okay fair enough. I haven't been here in a few days..I was reacting to the many comments that were posted today. My point still stands. Why go in search of a 6 month old thread just to take shots at the Op? Especially when ...as I stated..the team is doing so well??



    We all love how the team is doing, except maybe for a very small few.

    The simplest explanation is, people come here partly because they have free time, maybe too much free time, and they get a kick of going back and forth with these long drawn-out verbal battles.  It's just human nature, I would say. 

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    I think so many of the older generation Sox fans got so accustomed to complaining and criticizing that it has become second nature, even as we win.

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Rumors of Papi's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated !

    Here's the greatest hits:

     

    I agree with putting Ortiz back on the shelf, as he'll go on the DL if they don't keep around 100 games work load. He's a part-time player from here until the end of that 2 year contract.

     

    He isn't starting any 120 games, despite your guess. "At Least" is truly the work of a stooge. At most, even with the PH to try and help you lie with statistics, he'll almost surely "play in" no more than 120 games.

     

    The notion that you foresee 120 to 130 starts (or games played) is out on a twig.

     

    Ortiz's condition is obvious. It's fragile, and exactly the same issue that broke him down a year ago. These issues don't get better with age. Whether it's age or the typical tendon and ligament pathology from years of PED use, that remains to be seen. Either way, he's a part-time player, at best.

     

    ...those that claim he's at least 120 to 130 games started are delusional.

     

    Yes, and "the next night" is the point. Manager John needs to keep him in the status of a 100 to 110 game part-time player. If they go for more, he'll break down.

     

    Ortiz is punch and judy and his tiny sample with come crashing down. He's paid to hit the ball out and drive it deep in the gaps, for 140 plus workload.

    .

    ... a washed up middle of the order punch and judy hitter .

     At this point, he's a punch and judy pinch hitter guy who splits time at DH.

    Ortiz's splits mean nothing for a punch and judy guy with bad wheels. If he starts 130 or more games, he will be exposed and you won't be posting his plits. You will be crying like you were in Wakefield and no market. You fail to see the obvious, and have the planning skills of Red Sox managment.

    Over this two year contract, Ortiz and the "natural age regression" will manifest in DL stints and RBI and HR season averages that reflect a bench guy, part-time DH and pinch hitter.

    His latest words reflect the reality that he knows there will be no more fooling and getting a big contract anymore, which reflects the reality that Ortiz has bad wheels that aren't going to get better without PED. Unless the Red Sox use him as a part-time player, he's going back on the DL in less than 3 months.

     

    They need to rest him frequently if they hope to avoid another breakdown like 2012. This should be his final season, but this managment seems to wait until it gets embarrassing before they move contacts like S. Drew and Ortiz into the "sunk cost" that InEpsein would use, long after the damage was done from managment refusing to admit the mistake before way too much time had passed by.

    Management must not "ride Ortiz until he breaks down", 

     

    Great time to trade Ortiz, since he'll never make to retirment at the end of 2014 without becoming Tim Wakefield and "the fans deserve a chance to see me".

     

    It's about slugging all season and driving in runs. Ortiz is a punch and judy guy, now, which started with his breakdown last summer that caused him to produce 1/2 season production.

    It's a pipe dream to think he's going to have 100 RBI's and a high slugging average. Ortiz is a punch and judy guy, now, who offers next to nothing by gettong base.

     

    Great time to trade him, now.

     

    This team was built for Ortiz to provide year long slugging. That's not going to happen. He's a punch and judy hitter with no more bat speed than Iglesias, who doesn't have the Constiution to sustain season long slugging production. Get it over and put him on the field for what he's paid to do, and if he breaks down then 60 day DL him and allow the team to settle in and adjust to a style of baseball that relies on speed and top defense. This team isn't going to get the season home record job done when it comes to trying to outslug the AL, and bottom feeding off weak slugging teams like the Rays isn't going to offset the problem. The sooner they expose Ortiz's patent infirmities and adjust, the better. 

     We'll see, but I'm watching how he handles and adjusts to the fact Ortiz aint gonna get it done in the slugging department.

     

     This should be his final season, and 2011 was probably his last high slugging production full season.

     

    Ortiz is riding the bench early, which is necessary but proof that the 2 year deal was both a bidding against the Red Sox case and a value mistake. If they had signed him 2 a 2 year base 11 deal like I said to at the end of 2011, he would be correctly retiring at the end of this year.

     

    Ortiz can't play 8 out of every 10 games all season. 

     

    I've noted that you think Ortiz will start in over 130 games. I've already noted that I think Ortiz will get injured unless his total season workload is limited to about 100 to 110 games. 

    Don't let the facts disrupt your prevaricating trolling.

     
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