Runnin' Wild

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from harv53. Show harv53's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    Caught most of the game Saturday. I really like the aggressive approach Valentine seems to be taking. I do think that Ellsbury just missed the sign and that wasn't supposed to be a straight steal by iglesias.
     
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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    I was never a big Grady Little fan, but I think he got a bum rap for the Pedro thing.  1) We had nobody better than a tired Pedro in the pen. 2) It's not like they hit rockets off Pedro after the no-pull decision.
    Posted by moonslav59


    The BP was on fire at that point.  Arroyo, Timlin, Embree & Williamson had allowed 7 hits and 4 walks in 16.1 ALCS IPs.  In the ALDS, they combined for 3 hits and 3 walks in 11.1 IPs.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    Caught most of the game Saturday. I really like the aggressive approach Valentine seems to be taking. I do think that Ellsbury just missed the sign and that wasn't supposed to be a straight steal by iglesias.
    Posted by harv53
    IF Ellsbury missed the squeeze sign, the reason, I suspect, is that he couldn't believe that a manager would put it on with two outs, Iglesias running, and at the plate one of the best hitters in the game trying to get his spring cuts in. Someone might say that tricky Bobby pulled surprise. If he called a squeeze, he certainly did pull a surprise -- in spring training. But in a regular season game, someone in the dugout would be yelling "watch the squeeze" and making a bunt motion with his hands. There is a point where aggressive becomes reckless. IMO, straight steal or squeeze, the point was passed on that play. I'll bet there were comments in the other dugout. 
    Iglesias has a groin strain. I wonder if it happened on that play.
    After all, smart as he is, Valentine has also been known to be too clever for his own good. And not averse to showing off. 
    OTOH, both Ortiz and Salty went from first to third on singles, probably because of Valentine's new approach to baserunning. Cheers. But Ross almost ruined the day by getting picked off first by a tall right-hander. What else has he got to do except make sure it doesn't happen? I'll bet he heard about it. Grr.


     
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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : I will stir some controversy.  Pedroia is thought to be a good base-runner which he isn't. Which is analogous to Jeter being perceived to be a good defender by many which he never has been. "Old school" fans don't like the saber influence but they are wrong b/c announcers and fans alike propagate myths which can now be better scrutinized. Baseball is more interesting now IMO b/c the casual fan with the internet can debunk loads of cliched maxims. I grew up only listening to baseball, even then I noticed no consistency of player skill evaluation. For example, who had a strong arm or was a good defender. I liked Joe C. but "old school" baseball men were full of it all too often. Even the ones who played and been in the game for decades. Anecdotally Mr. Moon, I have been watching Pedey closely and I posted about his poor decision making in the past.  My memory is that he often tries to go to second when a player from second is scoring on his single. With two outs late in a close game when the other runner is in danger of getting thrown out at home, it is excusable. He does it in all situations. Like Jeter I think the Pedey myth took hold because of a couple of big moment heads up plays which remain in memories. I have posted before about the Rays having a low OPS compared to runs scored over the last few years with average RISP #s.  They take the extra base, just like Texas.  Post roids world IMO...
    Posted by tom-uk
    Does Pedey just keep going even though the cut-off man is going forward to take the throw and nail him? Or does he get deked by an outfielder who fakes a throw to home and nails him at second? Or what?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    Anecdotally Mr. Moon, I have been watching Pedey closely and I posted about his poor decision making in the past.  My memory is that he often tries to go to second when a player from second is scoring on his single. With two outs late in a close game when the other runner is in danger of getting thrown out at home, it is excusable. He does it in all situations.

    I'm not doubting your veracity, but I will watch much closer this year. I love the baserunning part of baseball, and thought I had been paying pretty close attention to that facet of the game. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    One last thought on Crawford and running plays. If Valentine plays him against lefties, as seems likely, at least to start with, the hit-and-run sign puts hitting to left into his head. Lefties wear him out with the sweeping curve. If he gets the sign and recognizes that pitch, he shouldn't hack but go with it, even slap it. If he gets a FB on the inner half, he can try to launch it. Either way, he should close his stance somewhat and lower his bat. He will help the team and himself if he learns to go the other way. If he hits one off that grotesque greenie and the ball takes a funky richochet, he's got three bases. One more than Boggs used to get. 
    His contract will start to look better -- never great, but better.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : Does Pedey just keep going even though the cut-off man is going forward to take the throw and nail him? Or does he get deked by an outfielder who fakes a throw to home and nails him at second? Or what?
    Posted by expitch


    My memory would be that he always got thrown out from the cut-off man.

    My guess is that his secnond largest mistake was trying to stretch a single.

    Scutaro twice last year took second tagging up on a long drive to center with a man also tagging from third.  The other player was forced to speed up for fear of not reaching home first.  Both times it worked but it was close, probably not worth the risk I would say.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : I will stir some controversy.  Pedroia is thought to be a good base-runner which he isn't. Which is analogous to Jeter being perceived to be a good defender by many which he never has been. "Old school" fans don't like the saber influence but they are wrong b/c announcers and fans alike propagate myths which can now be better scrutinized. Baseball is more interesting now IMO b/c the casual fan with the internet can debunk loads of cliched maxims. I grew up only listening to baseball, even then I noticed no consistency of player skill evaluation. For example, who had a strong arm or was a good defender. I liked Joe C. but "old school" baseball men were full of it all too often. Even the ones who played and been in the game for decades. Anecdotally Mr. Moon, I have been watching Pedey closely and I posted about his poor decision making in the past.  My memory is that he often tries to go to second when a player from second is scoring on his single. With two outs late in a close game when the other runner is in danger of getting thrown out at home, it is excusable. He does it in all situations. Like Jeter I think the Pedey myth took hold because of a couple of big moment heads up plays which remain in memories. I have posted before about the Rays having a low OPS compared to runs scored over the last few years with average RISP #s.  They take the extra base, just like Texas.  Post roids world IMO...
    Posted by tom-uk


    Tom, if you think Pedey is a bad baserunner, then what that tells me is you either are too conservative on the bathpaths, believe only in speedsters taking the extra base, or are blind.....pedey is an exceptional baserunner who utilizes his knowledge of the game to make (overwhemingly) the right decision to take an extra base...he has no more than average speed, how many stolen bases last year? 26. In the last three full years he played he has over 20....he runs the basese like he plays the infield - like a damm rain man who can see things others cant....if he had crawfords or ellsbury's speed, with his IQ, he would have 50 steals a year easily
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    Tom, if you think Pedey is a bad baserunner, then what that tells me is you either are too conservative on the bathpaths, believe only in speedsters taking the extra base, or are blind.....pedey is an exceptional baserunner who utilizes his knowledge of the game to make (overwhemingly) the right decision to take an extra base...he has no more than average speed, how many stolen bases last year? 26. In the last three full years he played he has over 20....he runs the basese like he plays the infield - like a damm rain man who can see things others cant....if he had crawfords or ellsbury's speed, with his IQ, he would have 50 steals a year easily

    Well, Jacoby steals about 56 bases per 162 games, so if Pedey is the Rain Man, then Jacoby must be the Amazing Kreskin!

    (BTW, Jacoby probably has run into more outs per time on base than any other Sox player over the past 3 years.)
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    The biggest one ...was when he and Beltre ran for that pop-up  ...




        ooouuch...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    He never called off Beltre, and yet so many posters tried to blame Adrian or Theo for having Jacoby in LF in the first place.
     
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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    He never called off Beltre, and yet so many posters tried to blame Adrian or Theo for having Jacoby in LF in the first place.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Yeah.  I mean, these things happen in baseball.  but, Jacoby should have known better.  Of all people, you better call off Adrian Beltre because that pit bull is going all out after everything everywhere.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    (BTW, Jacoby probably has run into more outs per time on base than any other Sox player over the past 3 years.)
    Posted by moonslav59


    I think he is getting better, but IMO, Jacoby has not been the smartest baserunner around.   He gets a lot of stolen bases due to his speed, but I have seen him make some bad decisions on the basepaths.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

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    I have to say, I am surprised to see Pedroia rate so low in BSR.  I always thought he was a very good baserunner.  Maybe I'm thinking just in terms of base stealing.   Something I will need to pay closer attention to that this year.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    He never called off Beltre, and yet so many posters tried to blame Adrian or Theo for having Jacoby in LF in the first place.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Only thing I can think ...and I doubt Ells had long think this through...was he was determined to establish his   ... street creds ....

    But Adrian already had his ... so as Space says ... he shoulda stayhed away from that dog!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : Only thing I can think ...and I doubt Ells had long think this through...was he was determined to establish his   ... street creds .... But Adrian already had his ... so as Space says ... he shoulda stayhed away from that dog!
    Posted by SinceYaz


    OF'ers learn at an early age to call off IF'ers as soon as they know they can get to the ball. Perhaps Jacoby was not used to having a 3Bman with that much backwards range, but it was still up to him to make the call- he didn't, and he paid for it.

    I never faulted Adrian for going all out. Yes, it improves the odds of an injury, but I wish all of our players had that drive.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : OF'ers learn at an early age to call off IF'ers as soon as they know they can get to the ball. Perhaps Jacoby was not used to having a 3Bman with that much backwards range, but it was still up to him to make the call- he didn't, and he paid for it. I never faulted Adrian for going all out. Yes, it improves the odds of an injury, but I wish all of our players had that drive.
    Posted by moonslav59



    Moon,


       That's sa fundemental even I remember.  I stopped shaggin'g flies for baseball in '72.  Played some softball untilearly '80s...but in some of those games, OFers were superfluous...HRs here HRs there
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : All the way back to 2003 -- and to a single series -- to show that the Boston Red Sox have been a running team.  No one is talking about running the lead-footed, but they do slow things down on the bases.  In the resent past, you must have been watching a different team from the ones that Boston and other announcers have been watching. After a Boston steal or steal attempt, they comment to the effect that there apparently will be a new approach this year.  The Sox have never had a reputation as a team that runs, even when, from time to time, the club has had fleet feet.
    Posted by expitch


    Hey Ex,

    Two outs, 3-2 count, runners on base are in motion once the pitcher commits to home. Standard 101 baseball taught at every level...Hit & run, sacifrice bunts, going 1st to 3rd, hitting behind the runner are all parts of "The running game" sometimes called "small ball" or as Joe Morgan likes to say when he's doing AL game "They play a national league style game " a style that is largely employed by teams that lack punch in the middle of the order or struggle over long periods to score at or above the league average and almost always is a by-product of the teams phylosophail approach based on the make up and athleticism of the team. In the AL with the DH there's less emphasis on manufacturing runs, than in the NL due to not having an auto out in the 9 hole (pitcher).

    The Sox have for most of our lives been largely built around the Earl Weaver phylosophy of playng for the big inning and recently we've been under the moneyball mentality where less emphasis is placed on small ball, but rather getting on base. Fenway Park plays a role in slowing the running game too, hard to take the extra base (scoring from second) on balls hit to left and because of the monster and the spacious right center gap, big innings and rally's are always in the forefront of every managers thinking (both ours and the visitors)..

    In contrast, I give you the Los Angeles Angels of Anehiem coached by Mike Sociccia. A team that is always among the leaders in taking the extra base (1st to 3rd) and the use of the hit and run. His teams are built and players are developed in the Angels system to fit thier style of play. Thier park which is nuetral and semetrical also plays a role. Stealing bases is part of the running game, but it's largely dependent on two factors the pitcher catcher combination and the ability of the player on base to beat the throw based on his time to second vs the pitcher/catcher math. CS is flawed, in that many times players that are not true base stealers get caught, in hit and run situations with less than two outs, where the batter fails to make contact...

    Back to the original premiss of your thread...

    Bobby Valentine is an old school baseball guy and is using the spring games to paint a broad picture so that teams will when they open the season, be on alert for "trick plays"...More so he's trying to instill his phylosophy of playing the game right with his players...I'm pretty certain that during the regular season we won't have too many guys trying to steal home vs a righthanded pitcher. Once the roster is set and we head north I can't see us morphing into a national league style team...not with Youk, Gonzalez and Papi in the middle of the lineup...I can however see us trying to manufacture runs at the bottom of the line though...It's been a fun spring

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : Hey Ex, Two outs, 3-2 count, runners on base are in motion once the pitcher commits to home. Standard 101 baseball taught at every level...Hit & run, sacifrice bunts, going 1st to 3rd, hitting behind the runner are all parts of "The running game" sometimes called "small ball" or as Joe Morgan likes to say when he's doing AL game "They play a national league style game " a style that is largely employed by teams that lack punch in the middle of the order or struggle over long periods to score at or above the league average and almost always is a by-product of the teams phylosophail approach based on the make up and athleticism of the team. In the AL with the DH there's less emphasis on manufacturing runs, than in the NL due to not having an auto out in the 9 hole (pitcher). The Sox have for most of our lives been largely built around the Earl Weaver phylosophy of playng for the big inning and recently we've been under the moneyball mentality where less emphasis is placed on small ball, but rather getting on base. Fenway Park plays a role in slowing the running game too, hard to take the extra base (scoring from second) on balls hit to left and because of the monster and the spacious right center gap, big innings and rally's are always in the forefront of every managers thinking (both ours and the visitors).. In contrast, I give you the Los Angeles Angels of Anehiem coached by Mike Sociccia. A team that is always among the leaders in taking the extra base (1st to 3rd) and the use of the hit and run. His teams are built and players are developed in the Angels system to fit thier style of play. Thier park which is nuetral and semetrical also plays a role. Stealing bases is part of the running game, but it's largely dependent on two factors the pitcher catcher combination and the ability of the player on base to beat the throw based on his time to second vs the pitcher/catcher math. CS is flawed, in that many times players that are not true base stealers get caught, in hit and run situations with less than two outs, where the batter fails to make contact... Back to the original premiss of your thread... Bobby Valentine is an old school baseball guy and is using the spring games to paint a broad picture so that teams will when they open the season, be on alert for "trick plays"...More so he's trying to instill his phylosophy of playing the game right with his players...I'm pretty certain that during the regular season we won't have too many guys trying to steal home vs a righthanded pitcher. Once the roster is set and we head north I can't see us morphing into a national league style team...not with Youk, Gonzalez and Papi in the middle of the lineup...I can however see us trying to manufacture runs at the bottom of the line though...It's been a fun spring
    Posted by Beantowne
    Ted Williams himself once said that it was a mistake to construct teams largely with Fenway in mind. ( He also thought the Sox should build a new park with more sensible dimensions. ) The Sox play 81 games elsewhere. I'm going from memory, but I seem to recall that even very good Boston teams used to struggle on the road and have lop-sided winning records at home. 
    The Sox don't need to be more dashing on the bases, just smarter and more alert. Even in Fenway, a runner can go from first to third on a single to left unless the ball is hit hard right at the fielder. Balls hit to the fielder's left may pose a problem for trying to take second on a single, but a guy on first thinking "two bases" who gets a good jump has a shot at third, with less than two outs. He needs to know how well or poorly the OFer throws. 
    I don't expect Valentine to fall in love with the sacrifice bunt, but I think he'll use the H and R and straight steal more than we're accustomed to seeing.
    IMO, the Iglesias play was less tricky than reckless -- even a little hot-doggish.

     
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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    RUN, BABY, RUN!!!!!!!!   (to those who can....)
    Posted by SinceYaz


    Yes, I agree.  It causes all sorts of problems for the other team.  Hopefully the problems don't have to broken down for anyone blogging about the sox.
     
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    Re: Runnin' Wild

    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : Ted Williams himself once said that it was a mistake to construct teams largely with Fenway in mind. ( He also thought the Sox should build a new park with more sensible dimensions. ) The Sox play 81 games elsewhere. I'm going from memory, but I seem to recall that even very good Boston teams used to struggle on the road and have lop-sided winning records at home.  The Sox don't need to be more dashing on the bases, just smarter and more alert. Even in Fenway, a runner can go from first to third on a single to left unless the ball is hit hard right at the fielder. Balls hit to the fielder's left may pose a problem for trying to take second on a single, but a guy on first thinking "two bases" who gets a good jump has a shot at third, with less than two outs. He needs to know how well or poorly the OFer throws.  I don't expect Valentine to fall in love with the sacrifice bunt, but I think he'll use the H and R and straight steal more than we're accustomed to seeing. IMO, the Iglesias play was less tricky than reckless -- even a little hot-doggish.
    Posted by expitch


    Being smarter and more alert is something which should be built into their contracts.  Screwing up with base running starts with letting guys jog to first on a routine fly, or not letting them touch first at all....re: ortiz.
    I would like to see them more aggressive.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

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    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : Yes, I agree.  It causes all sorts of problems for the other team.  Hopefully the problems don't have to broken down for anyone blogging about the sox.
    Posted by jackbu


    'Zactly!  (And it makes watching each pitch with someone on board a bit more exciting, too.)
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : Ted Williams himself once said that it was a mistake to construct teams largely with Fenway in mind. ( He also thought the Sox should build a new park with more sensible dimensions. ) The Sox play 81 games elsewhere. I'm going from memory, but I seem to recall that even very good Boston teams used to struggle on the road and have lop-sided winning records at home.  The Sox don't need to be more dashing on the bases, just smarter and more alert. Even in Fenway, a runner can go from first to third on a single to left unless the ball is hit hard right at the fielder. Balls hit to the fielder's left may pose a problem for trying to take second on a single, but a guy on first thinking "two bases" who gets a good jump has a shot at third, with less than two outs. He needs to know how well or poorly the OFer throws.  I don't expect Valentine to fall in love with the sacrifice bunt, but I think he'll use the H and R and straight steal more than we're accustomed to seeing. IMO, the Iglesias play was less tricky than reckless -- even a little hot-doggish.
    Posted by expitch


    I think that the Sox under Henry & Luccino have made strides to build a team that is capable of winning outside of Fenway. While still taking advantage of the homefield advantage that Fenway presents a team with a deep lineup with solid pitching staff.

    Most of the great Sox teams of the past, lacked quality pitching depth, the backend of the pen in particular. Far too many of those teams relied on the longball. Which for deaces was the MO of the Sox front offices, they placed far to much emphesis on scoring runs than preventing them. In my mind it's the quality of a teams pitching staff that plays nuetral on the road. Teams with solid rotations tend to have better road home splits. Hitter's tend to fall into patterns and groove their swing to fit thier home parks, what is a double at Fenway, is a can of corn in many other parks. How many times has say, Ortiz gone the other way on the road and hit what would have been a wall ball double, only to make a right turn at 1st. At home he's applauded for his approach, on the road he has little to show for what was a good at bat.

    As for Valentine, Tough for a Leapord to change his spots and for Valentine he's going to have to make sure he chooses his spots wisely and doesn't run us out of big innings. So given his resume and style. I too think that the Sox will be in motion a lot more this season. My guess is we'll see a lot more sacrifice bunts and hit and runs. I also see him sending the runners on 3-2 counts with less than two outs trying to stay out of double plays...
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Runnin' Wild

    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : I think that the Sox under Henry & Luccino have made strides to build a team that is capable of winning outside of Fenway. While still taking advantage of the homefield advantage that Fenway presents a team with a deep lineup with solid pitching staff. Most of the great Sox teams of the past, lacked quality pitching depth, the backend of the pen in particular. Far too many of those teams relied on the longball. Which for deaces was the MO of the Sox front offices, they placed far to much emphesis on scoring runs than preventing them. In my mind it's the quality of a teams pitching staff that plays nuetral on the road. Teams with solid rotations tend to have better road home splits. Hitter's tend to fall into patterns and groove their swing to fit thier home parks, what is a double at Fenway, is a can of corn in many other parks. How many times has say, Ortiz gone the other way on the road and hit what would have been a wall ball double, only to make a right turn at 1st. At home he's applauded for his approach, on the road he has little to show for what was a good at bat. As for Valentine, Tough for a Leapord to change his spots and for Valentine he's going to have to make sure he chooses his spots wisely and doesn't run us out of big innings. So given his resume and style. I too think that the Sox will be in motion a lot more this season. My guess is we'll see a lot more sacrifice bunts and hit and runs. I also see him sending the runners on 3-2 counts with less than two outs trying to stay out of double plays...
    Posted by Beantowne
    Less frequently, the line drive that would keep going into the seats in a "normal" park hits the wall in Fenway.
    I'm less sure about sacrifice bunts than about sending runners on 3 and 2. Maybe bunts late in a close game from the bottom of the order. Say, one on with no outs or one out and the 9 hitter up ( especially if it's Iglesias ), and Ellsbury on deck. Another option is to bat for Iglesias, send Ellsbury, and go for it. 

     
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    Re: Runnin' Wild

    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild:
    In Response to Re: Runnin' Wild : Less frequently, the line drive that would keep going into the seats in a "normal" park hits the wall in Fenway. I'm less sure about sacrifice bunts than about sending runners on 3 and 2. Maybe bunts late in a close game from the bottom of the order. Say, one on with no outs or one out and the 9 hitter up ( especially if it's Iglesias ), and Ellsbury on deck. Another option is to bat for Iglesias, send Ellsbury, and go for it. 
    Posted by expitch
    Oops, I meant to say "send the runner" ( Crawford? ), and go for it. Not Ellsbury

     
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