Saint Mariano

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    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to notin's comment:

     

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    None of which makes the postion of closer any less overrated.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     

     

    Perhaps, but then again. one can say that about any position. So why bother even bringing it up? Including the sidetracked interlaced commentary, the answer is obvious. Otherwise, this is about as weak as claiming Lincoln was a bad president.

     

     




    No, one cannot say that about any position.

     

     

     

    Closer is the most overrated positon in sports, and there can only be one most overrated position, by defintion of the word most.

     

    I have noticed in the context of your arguments, you have focused on the "Rivera was great" aspect, and avoided making any statements tht counter closer being overrated.  Well, you made one try, but it actually supported the idea.

     

    I have never said Rivera isn;t the greatest closer.  I just think that closer itself is a very, very overrated position.  And it is.  Citing Rivera's post-season numbers and career ERA does not change this.

     

    You are not alone in this thinking closer is not overrated.  The entire BBWAA for some reason loves closers, but hates DHs.  They have never voted for a full time DH into Cooperstown.  They have never elected a DH as MVP. Closers have been voted for both by them.  (Interestingly enough, the managers and coaches are worse.  They once voted for a DH as a Gold Glove winner in Rafael Palmeiro.  So not playing the field means you cannot be the best player, but it can mean you are the best fielder.  Go figure.)

     

    So, Rivera is the greatest closer ever.  He is a first ballot Hall of Famer.  I agree with both those statements.  By virtue of the career numbers, David Ortiz is the greatest DH ever.  Is he a first ballot Hall of Famer, too?

     

     



    No, but more due to the PED cloud, ala Piazza, than the DH thing,; he'll get in on a subsequent try IMO. And, I could be wrong, and he could get in the 1st time; there is no doubt he deserves it, with the 2004 tale being the 1st sentence on his plaque.

     

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano


    Just stating the facts, none of the ped guys have gotten in except for those who used prior to a lot of this stuff be brought to the surface.

    Like Ricky.

    There are a lot of columnists who will not vote for the any of the players who are suspect.

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano


    I wouldn't vote for him for that reason or any of the Yankees either.

    Because he denied it?

    Bonds denied it too so did Lance.

    Let them all go to hell.

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:


    And you're comparing a DH a borderline Hofer that is if the ped stuff is overlooked to one of the greatest ever to play the game.

    I know that won't gain much traction on Sox blog but it happens to be the truth.

    Mariano could be the best ballplayer to come out of this era.




    Even if you want ot keep the PEDs in it, despite the testing being prior any actual program in MLB, and players on agreed to it on the condition that it be anonymous.   All I have to do is insert the name "Edgar Martinez" where David Ortiz was.

     

    And don't cvome out with those easy "are you really comapring Ortiz to Rivera" cop outs.  I wasn't.  I was comparing closer to DH. 

    I do think Rivera is the greatst closer, but to call him the greatest player of this generation really furthers my point about how people overvalue closers.  In fact, it only shows that people overvalue far, far, far more than I actually thought.

     

    And yet all those coming to defense of the closer and citing Rivera as the greatest player since, well, hmm, yet no one wants to answer how well the Yankees woul have done without him from 1995 through 2001. 

     

    I realize it is speculative answers, but I think we all know the reason no one wants to speculate...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

     

     

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    None of which makes the postion of closer any less overrated.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     

     

    Perhaps, but then again. one can say that about any position. So why bother even bringing it up? Including the sidetracked interlaced commentary, the answer is obvious. Otherwise, this is about as weak as claiming Lincoln was a bad president.

     

     




    No, one cannot say that about any position.

     

     

     

    Closer is the most overrated positon in sports, and there can only be one most overrated position, by defintion of the word most.

     

    I have noticed in the context of your arguments, you have focused on the "Rivera was great" aspect, and avoided making any statements tht counter closer being overrated.  Well, you made one try, but it actually supported the idea.

     

    I have never said Rivera isn;t the greatest closer.  I just think that closer itself is a very, very overrated position.  And it is.  Citing Rivera's post-season numbers and career ERA does not change this.

     

    You are not alone in this thinking closer is not overrated.  The entire BBWAA for some reason loves closers, but hates DHs.  They have never voted for a full time DH into Cooperstown.  They have never elected a DH as MVP. Closers have been voted for both by them.  (Interestingly enough, the managers and coaches are worse.  They once voted for a DH as a Gold Glove winner in Rafael Palmeiro.  So not playing the field means you cannot be the best player, but it can mean you are the best fielder.  Go figure.)

     

    So, Rivera is the greatest closer ever.  He is a first ballot Hall of Famer.  I agree with both those statements.  By virtue of the career numbers, David Ortiz is the greatest DH ever.  Is he a first ballot Hall of Famer, too?

     

     



    No, but more due to the PED cloud, ala Piazza, than the DH thing,; he'll get in on a subsequent try IMO. And, I could be wrong, and he could get in the 1st time; there is no doubt he deserves it, with the 2004 tale being the 1st sentence on his plaque.

     

     




     

     

    OK, so Edgar Martinez.  No PED cloud there.  He is easily the greatest Drug Free DH of all time.  Why wasn't he elected into the Hall first time? 

     

    The answer is always "Because he did not play a postion."  Yet we all know most position players in the Hall are there for offensive merit alone.  That is why DHs do not get MVP.  You cal field badly and hurt your team and win an MVP, as long as you hit. 

     

    Now the closer - one inning with a lead of 3 runs or less.  Somehow THIS role is deemed worthy of MVP.  More closers have won MVP than starting pitchers.  YEs, some writers cop out with the "I do not think pitchers should be eligibe" BS.  Well they are wrong.  The rules for MVP voting explicitly state they are.

     

    So - simple question.  Since 1981 more closers (3) have won MVP than starting pitchers (2).  Do BBWAA members really think a closer is more important than a starting pitcher?  Do fans?  Are closers more important than starters?  Is this reflected in the way writers vote?

     

     

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

     

     You seem to be a nice guy but yoy make no sense.

    How can you say the closer position is not important when the Yankees have had unparalleled success with one closer over any other team in the game more so than any other team in baseball?

     


    And you're comparing a DH a borderline Hofer that is if the ped stuff is overlooked to one of the greatest ever to play the game.

    I know that won't gain much traction on Sox blog but it happens to be the truth.

    Mariano could be the best ballplayer to come out of this era.

     

     




     

     

    Even if you want ot keep the PEDs in it, despite the testing being prior any actual program in MLB, and players on agreed to it on the condition that it be anonymous.   All I have to do is insert the name "Edgar Martinez" where David Ortiz was.

     

    And don't cvome out with those easy "are you really comapring Ortiz to Rivera" cop outs.  I wasn't.  I was comparing closer to DH. 

    I do think Rivera is the greatst closer, but to call him the greatest player of this generation really furthers my point about how people overvalue closers.  In fact, it only shows that people overvalue far, far, far more than I actually thought.

     

    And yet all those coming to defense of the closer and citing Rivera as the greatest player since, well, hmm, yet no one wants to answer how well the Yankees woul have done without him from 1995 through 2001. 

     

    I realize it is speculative answers, but I think we all know the reason no one wants to speculate...



    Ok i'll speculate without Mariano they re-sign Wetteland closing 1996 and keep him not having MO and then win again in 98 and that's it.

     

    Don't forget Mo has gotten them to 6 WS their closer 1 as a set guy there's 7 WS.

    5 WS wins 2 losses with Mariano the opposite without Mariano 2 WS wins 5 losses.

    If if, they could even get to the WS those other 5 times without Mo which I doubt they would  have.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    None of which makes the postion of closer any less overrated.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     

     

    Perhaps, but then again. one can say that about any position. So why bother even bringing it up? Including the sidetracked interlaced commentary, the answer is obvious. Otherwise, this is about as weak as claiming Lincoln was a bad president.

     

     




    No, one cannot say that about any position.

     

     

     

    Closer is the most overrated positon in sports, and there can only be one most overrated position, by defintion of the word most.

     

    I have noticed in the context of your arguments, you have focused on the "Rivera was great" aspect, and avoided making any statements tht counter closer being overrated.  Well, you made one try, but it actually supported the idea.

     

    I have never said Rivera isn;t the greatest closer.  I just think that closer itself is a very, very overrated position.  And it is.  Citing Rivera's post-season numbers and career ERA does not change this.

     

    You are not alone in this thinking closer is not overrated.  The entire BBWAA for some reason loves closers, but hates DHs.  They have never voted for a full time DH into Cooperstown.  They have never elected a DH as MVP. Closers have been voted for both by them.  (Interestingly enough, the managers and coaches are worse.  They once voted for a DH as a Gold Glove winner in Rafael Palmeiro.  So not playing the field means you cannot be the best player, but it can mean you are the best fielder.  Go figure.)

     

    So, Rivera is the greatest closer ever.  He is a first ballot Hall of Famer.  I agree with both those statements.  By virtue of the career numbers, David Ortiz is the greatest DH ever.  Is he a first ballot Hall of Famer, too?

     

     



    No, but more due to the PED cloud, ala Piazza, than the DH thing,; he'll get in on a subsequent try IMO. And, I could be wrong, and he could get in the 1st time; there is no doubt he deserves it, with the 2004 tale being the 1st sentence on his plaque.

     

     

     




     

     

     

    OK, so Edgar Martinez.  No PED cloud there.  He is easily the greatest Drug Free DH of all time.  Why wasn't he? 

     

    The answer is always "Because he did not play a postion."  Yet we all know most position players in the Hall are there for offensive merit alone.  That is why DHs do not get MVP.  You cal field badly and hurt your team and win an MVP, as long as you hit. 

     

    Now the closer - one inning with a lead of 3 runs or less.  Somehow THIS role is deemed worthy of MVP.  More closers have won MVP than starting pitchers.  YEs, some writers cop out with the "I do not think pitchers should be eligibe" BS.  Well they are wrong.  The rules for MVP voting explicitly state they are.

     

    So - simple question.  Since 1981 more closers (3) have won MVP than starting pitchers (2).  Do BBWAA members really think a closer is more important than a starting pitcher?  Do fans?  Are closers more important than starters?  Is this reflected in the way writers vote?

     

     




     

    And maybe now you can tell me if not for Mariano who the hell would have saved 635 games regular season and 42 post season games for the Yankees since 1997?

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano


    And also tell me what other team in the entire history of baseball 3-peated with the same closer?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to prknsdnld's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    None of which makes the postion of closer any less overrated.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     

     

    Perhaps, but then again. one can say that about any position. So why bother even bringing it up? Including the sidetracked interlaced commentary, the answer is obvious. Otherwise, this is about as weak as claiming Lincoln was a bad president.

     

     




    No, one cannot say that about any position.

     

     

     

    Closer is the most overrated positon in sports, and there can only be one most overrated position, by defintion of the word most.

     

    I have noticed in the context of your arguments, you have focused on the "Rivera was great" aspect, and avoided making any statements tht counter closer being overrated.  Well, you made one try, but it actually supported the idea.

     

    I have never said Rivera isn;t the greatest closer.  I just think that closer itself is a very, very overrated position.  And it is.  Citing Rivera's post-season numbers and career ERA does not change this.

     

    You are not alone in this thinking closer is not overrated.  The entire BBWAA for some reason loves closers, but hates DHs.  They have never voted for a full time DH into Cooperstown.  They have never elected a DH as MVP. Closers have been voted for both by them.  (Interestingly enough, the managers and coaches are worse.  They once voted for a DH as a Gold Glove winner in Rafael Palmeiro.  So not playing the field means you cannot be the best player, but it can mean you are the best fielder.  Go figure.)

     

    So, Rivera is the greatest closer ever.  He is a first ballot Hall of Famer.  I agree with both those statements.  By virtue of the career numbers, David Ortiz is the greatest DH ever.  Is he a first ballot Hall of Famer, too?

     

     



    No, but more due to the PED cloud, ala Piazza, than the DH thing,; he'll get in on a subsequent try IMO. And, I could be wrong, and he could get in the 1st time; there is no doubt he deserves it, with the 2004 tale being the 1st sentence on his plaque.

     

     

     



     

     

     

    OK, so Edgar Martinez.  No PED cloud there.  He is easily the greatest Drug Free DH of all time.  Why wasn't he? 

     

    The answer is always "Because he did not play a postion."  Yet we all know most position players in the Hall are there for offensive merit alone.  That is why DHs do not get MVP.  You cal field badly and hurt your team and win an MVP, as long as you hit. 

     

    Now the closer - one inning with a lead of 3 runs or less.  Somehow THIS role is deemed worthy of MVP.  More closers have won MVP than starting pitchers.  YEs, some writers cop out with the "I do not think pitchers should be eligibe" BS.  Well they are wrong.  The rules for MVP voting explicitly state they are.

     

    So - simple question.  Since 1981 more closers (3) have won MVP than starting pitchers (2).  Do BBWAA members really think a closer is more important than a starting pitcher?  Do fans?  Are closers more important than starters?  Is this reflected in the way writers vote?

     

     

     



    Yer wrong. Don Baylor won the MVP in the A.L. in '79 ( I believe), as D.H.

     




     

    I stand corrected.  Kinda sorta. (REally, maybe not.)

     

    Baylor did play 78 games in LF that year for the Angels.  He played 65 games at DH.  He also played another 19 games in RF and one at 1B. 

     

    But he will always be remembered as a DH.  I give you partial credit, since he was a partial DH..

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:


    And also tell me what other team in the entire history of baseball 3-peated with the same closer?




    That is a bogus question, and you know i.  Unless you are now going so far as to say that the Yankees won 3 straight WS titles from 1998 through 2000 BECAUSE OF Rivera.  

    Are you saying that he is the greatest player of the past, say, quarter century because he was in the right place at the right time?  If the Yankees had, say, Trevor Hoffman closing instead during those years, or if Wetteland had not retired, would either of them be the greatest ever?

    He was part of that team and he did his job. But his role is, was and always will be the most overrated role in all of sports.

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

     


    And also tell me what other team in the entire history of baseball 3-peated with the same closer?

     




     

    That is a bogus question, and you know i.  Unless you are now going so far as to say that the Yankees won 3 straight WS titles from 1998 through 2000 BECAUSE OF Rivera.  

    Are you saying that he is the greatest player of the past, say, quarter century because he was in the right place at the right time?  If the Yankees had, say, Trevor Hoffman closing instead during those years, or if Wetteland had not retired, would either of them be the greatest ever?

    He was part of that team and he did his job. But his role is, was and always will be the most overrated role in all of sports.

     

     




    I guess that's what I said!!!!

    Without Rivera no 3 peat.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    None of which makes the postion of closer any less overrated.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     

     

    Perhaps, but then again. one can say that about any position. So why bother even bringing it up? Including the sidetracked interlaced commentary, the answer is obvious. Otherwise, this is about as weak as claiming Lincoln was a bad president.

     

     




    No, one cannot say that about any position.

     

     

     

    Closer is the most overrated positon in sports, and there can only be one most overrated position, by defintion of the word most.

     

    I have noticed in the context of your arguments, you have focused on the "Rivera was great" aspect, and avoided making any statements tht counter closer being overrated.  Well, you made one try, but it actually supported the idea.

     

    I have never said Rivera isn;t the greatest closer.  I just think that closer itself is a very, very overrated position.  And it is.  Citing Rivera's post-season numbers and career ERA does not change this.

     

    You are not alone in this thinking closer is not overrated.  The entire BBWAA for some reason loves closers, but hates DHs.  They have never voted for a full time DH into Cooperstown.  They have never elected a DH as MVP. Closers have been voted for both by them.  (Interestingly enough, the managers and coaches are worse.  They once voted for a DH as a Gold Glove winner in Rafael Palmeiro.  So not playing the field means you cannot be the best player, but it can mean you are the best fielder.  Go figure.)

     

    So, Rivera is the greatest closer ever.  He is a first ballot Hall of Famer.  I agree with both those statements.  By virtue of the career numbers, David Ortiz is the greatest DH ever.  Is he a first ballot Hall of Famer, too?

     

     



    No, but more due to the PED cloud, ala Piazza, than the DH thing,; he'll get in on a subsequent try IMO. And, I could be wrong, and he could get in the 1st time; there is no doubt he deserves it, with the 2004 tale being the 1st sentence on his plaque.

     

     




     

     

    OK, so Edgar Martinez.  No PED cloud there.  He is easily the greatest Drug Free DH of all time.  Why wasn't he elected into the Hall first time? 

     

    The answer is always "Because he did not play a postion."  Yet we all know most position players in the Hall are there for offensive merit alone.  That is why DHs do not get MVP.  You cal field badly and hurt your team and win an MVP, as long as you hit. 

     

    Now the closer - one inning with a lead of 3 runs or less.  Somehow THIS role is deemed worthy of MVP.  More closers have won MVP than starting pitchers.  YEs, some writers cop out with the "I do not think pitchers should be eligibe" BS.  Well they are wrong.  The rules for MVP voting explicitly state they are.

     

    So - simple question.  Since 1981 more closers (3) have won MVP than starting pitchers (2).  Do BBWAA members really think a closer is more important than a starting pitcher?  Do fans?  Are closers more important than starters?  Is this reflected in the way writers vote?

     

     



    Edgar is not in the Ortiz category; and he may still get in. There is still a chance Ortiz may NOT get in, if his PED cloud gets any murkier (i.e, clearer) . As far as the closer thing is concerned, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano

    Excuse me did John Wetteland have the career Mariano did?

    Did Trevor Hoffman have the success in the post season Mariano Did?

    You are going to compare Trevor Hoffman pitching in the NL west to Mariano?

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano


    Trevor Hoffman had a 9.00 era against the Yankees in 1998 WS. Mariano's ERA against SD was 0.00.

    A closer isn't important.

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

     

     


    And you're comparing a DH a borderline Hofer that is if the ped stuff is overlooked to one of the greatest ever to play the game.

    I know that won't gain much traction on Sox blog but it happens to be the truth.

    Mariano could be the best ballplayer to come out of this era.

     

     




     

     

    Even if you want ot keep the PEDs in it, despite the testing being prior any actual program in MLB, and players on agreed to it on the condition that it be anonymous.   All I have to do is insert the name "Edgar Martinez" where David Ortiz was.

     

    And don't cvome out with those easy "are you really comapring Ortiz to Rivera" cop outs.  I wasn't.  I was comparing closer to DH. 

    I do think Rivera is the greatst closer, but to call him the greatest player of this generation really furthers my point about how people overvalue closers.  In fact, it only shows that people overvalue far, far, far more than I actually thought.

     

    And yet all those coming to defense of the closer and citing Rivera as the greatest player since, well, hmm, yet no one wants to answer how well the Yankees woul have done without him from 1995 through 2001. 

     

    I realize it is speculative answers, but I think we all know the reason no one wants to speculate...

     



    Ok i'll speculate without Mariano they re-sign Wetteland closing 1996 and keep him not having MO and then win again in 98 and that's it.

     

    Don't forget Mo has gotten them to 6 WS their closer 1 as a set guy there's 7 WS.

    5 WS wins 2 losses with Mariano the opposite without Mariano 2 WS wins 5 losses.

    If if, they could even get to the WS those other 5 times without Mo which I doubt they would  have.




    So you think, without Rivera, they cannot beat the Braves in 1999 or the Mets in 2001?  They won those series by a combined 8-1!!!!!

     

    They SWEPT the Braves in 1999!!!   Rivera had 2 saves. Both games, he came in witha 4-1 lead!   Are you saying that without Rivera, the Yankees bullpen was incapable of holding a 3-run lead?? Twice?!!  

     

    Or are you saying that without Rivera, they lose to the Red Sox in the ALCS?  Or the Rangers in the ALDS?  They won both those series handily, 4-1 and 3-0 respectively.  Which do they lose without Rivera?

     

    You do realize that in the entire 1998 through 2001 run by the Yankees, they only played ONE SERIES that went the maximum number of games?  That would be the 2001 World Series, which they lost.  This means the rest of the Yankees were actually a very good team that was capable of winning a lot of games.  Rivera did hold  a lead when they gave it to him.  But they also gave him the lead ALOT.  And another closer in that role might have blown a save here or there in the post-season.  But I think winning 4 games to 1 or 4 games to 2 instead of sweeping would have gone over pretty well with everyone on that team...

     
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    Re: Saint Mariano

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

     

    In response to ThatWasMe's comment:

     

     

     


    And you're comparing a DH a borderline Hofer that is if the ped stuff is overlooked to one of the greatest ever to play the game.

    I know that won't gain much traction on Sox blog but it happens to be the truth.

    Mariano could be the best ballplayer to come out of this era.

     

     

     




     

     

     

    Even if you want ot keep the PEDs in it, despite the testing being prior any actual program in MLB, and players on agreed to it on the condition that it be anonymous.   All I have to do is insert the name "Edgar Martinez" where David Ortiz was.

     

    And don't cvome out with those easy "are you really comapring Ortiz to Rivera" cop outs.  I wasn't.  I was comparing closer to DH. 

    I do think Rivera is the greatst closer, but to call him the greatest player of this generation really furthers my point about how people overvalue closers.  In fact, it only shows that people overvalue far, far, far more than I actually thought.

     

    And yet all those coming to defense of the closer and citing Rivera as the greatest player since, well, hmm, yet no one wants to answer how well the Yankees woul have done without him from 1995 through 2001. 

     

    I realize it is speculative answers, but I think we all know the reason no one wants to speculate...

     

     



    Ok i'll speculate without Mariano they re-sign Wetteland closing 1996 and keep him not having MO and then win again in 98 and that's it.

     

     

    Don't forget Mo has gotten them to 6 WS their closer 1 as a set guy there's 7 WS.

    5 WS wins 2 losses with Mariano the opposite without Mariano 2 WS wins 5 losses.

    If if, they could even get to the WS those other 5 times without Mo which I doubt they would  have.

     




     

    So you think, without Rivera, they cannot beat the Braves in 1999 or the Mets in 2001?  They won those series by a combined 8-1!!!!!

     

    They SWEPT the Braves in 1999!!!   Rivera had 2 saves. Both games, he came in witha 4-1 lead!   Are you saying that without Rivera, the Yankees bullpen was incapable of holding a 3-run lead?? Twice?!!  

     

    Or are you saying that without Rivera, they lose to the Red Sox in the ALCS?  Or the Rangers in the ALDS?  They won both those series handily, 4-1 and 3-0 respectively.  Which do they lose without Rivera?

     

    You do realize that in the entire 1998 through 2001 run by the Yankees, they only played ONE SERIES that went the maximum number of games?  That would be the 2001 World Series, which they lost.  This means the rest of the Yankees were actually a very good team that was capable of winning a lot of games.  Rivera did hold  a lead when they gave it to him.  But they also gave him the lead ALOT.  And another closer in that role might have blown a save here or there in the post-season.  But I think winning 4 games to 1 or 4 games to 2 instead of sweeping would have gone over pretty well with everyone on that team...




    And how do you know without Rivera that the Yankees would have been in a position to win either of those series??

    You still have not answered my question if not for Mariano WHO would have duplicated his numbers for that length of time???

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

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    None of which makes the postion of closer any less overrated.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     

     

    Perhaps, but then again. one can say that about any position. So why bother even bringing it up? Including the sidetracked interlaced commentary, the answer is obvious. Otherwise, this is about as weak as claiming Lincoln was a bad president.

     

     




    No, one cannot say that about any position.

     

     

     

    Closer is the most overrated positon in sports, and there can only be one most overrated position, by defintion of the word most.

     

    I have noticed in the context of your arguments, you have focused on the "Rivera was great" aspect, and avoided making any statements tht counter closer being overrated.  Well, you made one try, but it actually supported the idea.

     

    I have never said Rivera isn;t the greatest closer.  I just think that closer itself is a very, very overrated position.  And it is.  Citing Rivera's post-season numbers and career ERA does not change this.

     

    You are not alone in this thinking closer is not overrated.  The entire BBWAA for some reason loves closers, but hates DHs.  They have never voted for a full time DH into Cooperstown.  They have never elected a DH as MVP. Closers have been voted for both by them.  (Interestingly enough, the managers and coaches are worse.  They once voted for a DH as a Gold Glove winner in Rafael Palmeiro.  So not playing the field means you cannot be the best player, but it can mean you are the best fielder.  Go figure.)

     

    So, Rivera is the greatest closer ever.  He is a first ballot Hall of Famer.  I agree with both those statements.  By virtue of the career numbers, David Ortiz is the greatest DH ever.  Is he a first ballot Hall of Famer, too?

     

     



    No, but more due to the PED cloud, ala Piazza, than the DH thing,; he'll get in on a subsequent try IMO. And, I could be wrong, and he could get in the 1st time; there is no doubt he deserves it, with the 2004 tale being the 1st sentence on his plaque.

     

     

     



     

     

     

    OK, so Edgar Martinez.  No PED cloud there.  He is easily the greatest Drug Free DH of all time.  Why wasn't he? 

     

    The answer is always "Because he did not play a postion."  Yet we all know most position players in the Hall are there for offensive merit alone.  That is why DHs do not get MVP.  You cal field badly and hurt your team and win an MVP, as long as you hit. 

     

    Now the closer - one inning with a lead of 3 runs or less.  Somehow THIS role is deemed worthy of MVP.  More closers have won MVP than starting pitchers.  YEs, some writers cop out with the "I do not think pitchers should be eligibe" BS.  Well they are wrong.  The rules for MVP voting explicitly state they are.

     

    So - simple question.  Since 1981 more closers (3) have won MVP than starting pitchers (2).  Do BBWAA members really think a closer is more important than a starting pitcher?  Do fans?  Are closers more important than starters?  Is this reflected in the way writers vote?

     

     

     



    Yer wrong. Don Baylor won the MVP in the A.L. in '79 ( I believe), as D.H.

     




    Actually, I think Ortiz was clean, and Martinez was a juicer.  Players don't peak from ages 32 - 38.  Martinez raised his slugging pct more than 100 points during that time.

    Ortiz, on the other hand, peaked from ages 27 - 31, which is very normal, and his best years came after the testing policy went into effect.

    Ortiz's name was on "the list" but we know that at least 8 of the names on the list did not test positive, and many of the substances on the list could be found in over-the-counter energy drinks, appetite suppressants and cold medicines.  At the time, there would not have been any reason for a player to avoid these things.  And if the point of the leak was to 'expose' Ortiz as a cheater, why not leak the specifics of the substance in question?

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

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    And also tell me what other team in the entire history of baseball 3-peated with the same closer?

     

     




     

     

    That is a bogus question, and you know i.  Unless you are now going so far as to say that the Yankees won 3 straight WS titles from 1998 through 2000 BECAUSE OF Rivera.  

    Are you saying that he is the greatest player of the past, say, quarter century because he was in the right place at the right time?  If the Yankees had, say, Trevor Hoffman closing instead during those years, or if Wetteland had not retired, would either of them be the greatest ever?

    He was part of that team and he did his job. But his role is, was and always will be the most overrated role in all of sports.

     

     

     




     

    I guess that's what I said!!!!

    Without Rivera no 3 peat.




    Sorry, but you are probably wrong.  I would put the chances somewhere between 99 and 101 percent.

     

    The Yankees win every title in that stretch with or without Rivera. They did not ever even get challenged in the post-season in any of those years, and only had two series that entire run that went as many as 6 games.  They could have easily afforded a less effective closer and still won all those titles....

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano


    AND

    John Wetteland's career lasted only 11 years and the last two he was totally uneffective and why he retired.

    ERA in 1999 for Texas was 3.68 in 2000 it was 4.20.

    The Yankees NEVER would have won the WS in 1999 and 2000 with Wetteland as the closer!!

    No 3-peat.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

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    And you're comparing a DH a borderline Hofer that is if the ped stuff is overlooked to one of the greatest ever to play the game.

    I know that won't gain much traction on Sox blog but it happens to be the truth.

    Mariano could be the best ballplayer to come out of this era.

     

     

     

     


     

     

     

     

    Even if you want ot keep the PEDs in it, despite the testing being prior any actual program in MLB, and players on agreed to it on the condition that it be anonymous.   All I have to do is insert the name "Edgar Martinez" where David Ortiz was.

     

    And don't cvome out with those easy "are you really comapring Ortiz to Rivera" cop outs.  I wasn't.  I was comparing closer to DH. 

    I do think Rivera is the greatst closer, but to call him the greatest player of this generation really furthers my point about how people overvalue closers.  In fact, it only shows that people overvalue far, far, far more than I actually thought.

     

    And yet all those coming to defense of the closer and citing Rivera as the greatest player since, well, hmm, yet no one wants to answer how well the Yankees woul have done without him from 1995 through 2001. 

     

    I realize it is speculative answers, but I think we all know the reason no one wants to speculate...

     

     

     



    Ok i'll speculate without Mariano they re-sign Wetteland closing 1996 and keep him not having MO and then win again in 98 and that's it.

     

     

     

    Don't forget Mo has gotten them to 6 WS their closer 1 as a set guy there's 7 WS.

    5 WS wins 2 losses with Mariano the opposite without Mariano 2 WS wins 5 losses.

    If if, they could even get to the WS those other 5 times without Mo which I doubt they would  have.

     

     


     

     

    So you think, without Rivera, they cannot beat the Braves in 1999 or the Mets in 2001?  They won those series by a combined 8-1!!!!!

     

    They SWEPT the Braves in 1999!!!   Rivera had 2 saves. Both games, he came in witha 4-1 lead!   Are you saying that without Rivera, the Yankees bullpen was incapable of holding a 3-run lead?? Twice?!!  

     

    Or are you saying that without Rivera, they lose to the Red Sox in the ALCS?  Or the Rangers in the ALDS?  They won both those series handily, 4-1 and 3-0 respectively.  Which do they lose without Rivera?

     

    You do realize that in the entire 1998 through 2001 run by the Yankees, they only played ONE SERIES that went the maximum number of games?  That would be the 2001 World Series, which they lost.  This means the rest of the Yankees were actually a very good team that was capable of winning a lot of games.  Rivera did hold  a lead when they gave it to him.  But they also gave him the lead ALOT.  And another closer in that role might have blown a save here or there in the post-season.  But I think winning 4 games to 1 or 4 games to 2 instead of sweeping would have gone over pretty well with everyone on that team...

     



    A closer look shall show the NYY were in trouble in the PS vs Clev in '98, and he had a big hand in the 2000 and 2009 WS; let's also not forget the 03 ALCS; including MVP, or  his WS MVP in '99. Regardless, the whole concept of this debate is ridiculous. We could argue whether the NYY would have won all those WS way back when without their marquis players as well.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Saint Mariano

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    And also tell me what other team in the entire history of baseball 3-peated with the same closer?

     

     

     




     

     

     

    That is a bogus question, and you know i.  Unless you are now going so far as to say that the Yankees won 3 straight WS titles from 1998 through 2000 BECAUSE OF Rivera.  

    Are you saying that he is the greatest player of the past, say, quarter century because he was in the right place at the right time?  If the Yankees had, say, Trevor Hoffman closing instead during those years, or if Wetteland had not retired, would either of them be the greatest ever?

    He was part of that team and he did his job. But his role is, was and always will be the most overrated role in all of sports.

     

     

     

     




     

     

    I guess that's what I said!!!!

    Without Rivera no 3 peat.

     




    Sorry, but you are probably wrong.  I would put the chances somewhere between 99 and 101 percent.

     

     

    The Yankees win every title in that stretch with or without Rivera. They did not ever even get challenged in the post-season in any of those years, and only had two series that entire run that went as many as 6 games.  They could have easily afforded a less effective closer and still won all those titles....




    You're full of baloney.

    Somehow the Yankees without the greatest closer of all time pull a rabbit out of their hat and duplicate his numbers with a strawman that you can't name.

    Because there isn't anyone.

     
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