Salty/Russell Martin Debate

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : That's not an argument that Martin is good - just over-rated.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    LOL slomag

    actually it's an argument  about

    whose opinion do I value more

     expitch's & yours or the mlb players

    let me think about it
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrh1194. Show jrh1194's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : That is a reasonable position to take.  Its the Martin is great and Salty is terrible crowd that was yelling from the rooftops.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]

    I certainly don't feel that Salty is terrible (nor do I think that Martin is great). A year from now I might take Salty over Martin if he continues to improve. Right now I still think that Martin the edge.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Anyone who wasn't worried about Saltalamacchia before the season started and then in April and May--simply wasn't paying attention. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]maybe if the MLB  players saw this post In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : they wouldn't have voted for martin to be on the AS team
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]
    Maybe they wouldn't have.  He had a great start but has since slipped badly.
    I saw him catch a ton of games with the Dodgers, more games than any ML player saw except his teammates.  I say he's mediocre.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate



    Salty is having a pretty good season.  And I can finally spell and pronounce his last name.  lol
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxWacko. Show RedSoxWacko's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]salty may still have "upside" but so far thats all hes had in his career. Martin has been an allstar multiple times. That being said, i dont think salty or russell martin would have been the sox catcher of the future. That title I believe will go to ryan lavarnway. He cant be any worse defensively than salty and chances are he will be a much better hitter. 
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    So in essence you are saying that Lavarnay has "upside"? Salty is improving at the ML level, Martin was a really good offensive catcher at one time, I think those days are long gone. I hope you are correct about Lavarnay, but I like what I see from Salty so far, not a finished product but improving.
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Maybe they wouldn't have.  He had a great start but has since slipped badly. I saw him catch a ton of games with the Dodgers, more games than any ML player saw except his teammates.  I say he's mediocre.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I can believe he went flat in LA

    but I don't believe I'm watching a mediocre catcher
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    i would say salty's improvement has been pretty marginal at best. He is barely hitting .250 and is not great defensively. He does not throw out many runners either. The reason why i think lavarnway will be better than salty is because he is producing alot more consistantly at the minor league level than salty did. Salty is 26 and has played for 3 teams already and has yet to live up to the hype that surrounded him when he was on the braves. Salty is essentially the catcher version of andrew miller at this point in his career. Both were rushed to the majors, both did not produce and both likely wont ever live up to their potential. Next year, if larvarnway keeps hitting the way he has this year and last year and improves defensively he will/should be the starter with salty as his back up(tek should retire). 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Anyone who wasn't worried about Saltalamacchia before the season started and then in April and May--simply wasn't paying attention. 

    Or has faith in the Red Sox front office.  I wasn't that worried because the front office saw something in him to trust him with the job.  Hey, they could have been wrong, which happens.  But I trust them to know more than myself, or anyone else on these boards that is not a scout.  From what I have seen, he has been progressing.  And catcher is a position, from what I have read and heard, that takes more time to develop into fully. 

    I think if the Sox had signed Martin, it would have been instead of Varitek, not Saltalamacchia.  Maybe Martin would have gotten the better of the 60/40 split in playing time, or even 50/50.  As it turns out, though, I am happy with the Sox situation right now. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]jimdavis want do you want to see in 2012? Tek has to go at some point, is Salty going to be the full-time CA in 2012?  I think 2012 will be potentially more problematic than some suggest 2011 has been.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]


    Burrito, what would you feel about Salty being the 80% catcher next year and VTek being a 20% guy next year (perhaps just Beckett's caddy)?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]For all of April and May, I read how foolish the Sox were to have signed Salty and not Martin.  Martin started out on fire which only rhachetted up the rhetoric.  Now that Salty is playing well and Martin has come back to earth, I wonder where all the Salty doubters have gone.  To me it was a typical Red Sox Nation over reaction in the early part of the season.  What do you all think?
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]

    This was our weak spot, but the FO knew it and trusted in Salty developing, especially with the Captain mentoring him.

    I will admit I was jealous of Martin's early power.  But I never put down Salty.

    I will say fair is fair and any number of Salty doubters have statements of pleasant surprise and the error of their initial assessment.

    I applaud them for that and honor them for it.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

     can believe he went flat in LA but I don't believe I'm watching a mediocre catcher
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]

    The life of a NYY homer is difficult on a Sox board, especially when you defend the indefensible.  Martin will need great intangibles b/c his poor #s from being "distracted" in 2010 have continued.

    Fangraphs have him as a poor fielder and below average baserunner.  In runs created he is 14th amongst catchers. Doesn't sound like AS material.

    Unless an AS like Scott Rolen is the benchmark.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    i would still take russell martin over salty. He still has too many mental lapses on defense and has not produced much with the stick. I would not be surprise if ryan lavarnway takes over for him next year if he continues to rake and refines his defensive skills. If he can stick at catcher then i think we will have found our catcher of the future. I am not overly impressed with salty but he has been ok.
    Posted by redsoxpride34[/QUOTE]

    He is ranked 9th of 33 in OPS of catchers with > 150 PA.  Martin is 18th.  What do you want?
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate


    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE] can believe he went flat in LA but I don't believe I'm watching a mediocre catcher Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE] The life of a NYY homer is difficult on a Sox board, especially when you defend the indefensible.  Martin will need great intangibles b/c his poor #s from being "distracted" in 2010 have continued. Fangraphs have him as a poor fielder and below average baserunner.  In runs created he is 14th amongst catchers. Doesn't sound like AS material. Unless an AS like Scott Rolen is the benchmark.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    keep your super stats

    while I know there is more to base running than just SB's

    it's  kind of hard to imagine that the catcher with twice as many SB

    as any other catcher else would be a below avg base runner 4 a catcher


    as far as not being ''
    AS material  ''

    like I said I sort of fancy the MLB players who voted him an AS

    over posters from RSN
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE] can believe he went flat in LA but I don't believe I'm watching a mediocre catcher Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE] The life of a NYY homer is difficult on a Sox board, especially when you defend the indefensible.  Martin will need great intangibles b/c his poor #s from being "distracted" in 2010 have continued. Fangraphs have him as a poor fielder and below average baserunner.  In runs created he is 14th amongst catchers. Doesn't sound like AS material. Unless an AS like Scott Rolen is the benchmark.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    You shouldn't be calling anybody a homer.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]Matt Kemp being better than Bellsbury should be the only thing spoken about right now.
    Posted by bettersoftthanlaw[/QUOTE]


    'bettersoftthanlaw'---------hmm, i bet your boyfriend doesn't agree.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    as far as not being '' AS material  '' like I said I sort of fancy the MLB players who voted him an AS over posters from RSN
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]

    Scott Rolen was an All-star, great fielder but 19th best hitting at 3rd in NL
     
    Who is having the best season at 2nd in AL? 

    Pedroia having better season than Cano

    July, 15, 2011
    Here are the All-Star break statistics for two players who play the same position on playoff contenders:

    Player A: .296, 15 HR, 57 RBI, 87 games
    Player B: .284, 11 HR, 44 RBI, 87 games

    Which guy is having the better season? What if I told you Player A won the fan vote for his position, started the All-Star Game and won the Home Run Derby. Player B, meanwhile, didn’t make the All-Star team or even get listed as one of the five finalists in his league for the final player vote.

    Pedroia
    Pedroia
    Cano
    Cano
    So who is having the better season? The answer, of course, is player B -- Dustin Pedroia. He’s having an MVP-caliber season that is not only more impressive than Robinson Cano's, but is flying under the recognition radar, which is pretty amazing for a former MVP who plays for the Red Sox.

    First off, let’s compare the offensive totals of Pedroia and Cano.

    PEDROIA
    409 PAs, .284/.395/.442, 19 2B, 1 3B, 11 HR, 44 RBI, 59 R, 63 BB, 49 SO

    That translates to 66 runs created. Pedroia has used up 257 outs, so he’s created about 6.9 runs for every 27 outs.

    CANO
    368 PAs, .296/.342/.521, 21 2B, 5 3B, 15 HR, 57 RBI, 57 R, 17 BB, 46 SO

    That translates to 57 runs created. Cano has used up 256 outs, so he’s created about 6.9 runs for every 27 outs

    The main difference between the two is Pedroia’s advantage in walks -- 63 to 17. That’s 46 more times he’s been on base than Cano. So while Cano has more power, Pedroia’s 57-point advantage in on-base percentage means he’s used up fewer outs to produce his runs. He’s been the better offensive player.

    When you add in defense, the split gets even larger. Cano won a Gold Glove last year. And while he was decent last season, if not really Gold Glove-worthy, his defensive numbers are mediocre this year. Pedroia, meanwhile, has been outstanding. Baseball Info Solutions rates Pedroia as having saved eight runs compared to the average second baseman, while Cano rates as minus-3. Ultimate Zone Rating has an even larger difference, with Pedroia at plus-10 and Cano at minus-5.

    It all adds up to Pedroia being one of the best players in the American League. Here are the WAR (wins above a replacement level player) leaders for the AL from FanGraphs:

    Jose Bautista, 6.6
    Adrian Gonzalez, 4.8
    Jacoby Ellsbury, 4.8
    Curtis Granderson, 4.7
    Pedroia, 4.7

    Cano is down the list at 2.9.

    The most interesting thing about Pedroia’s season is his walk rate. With 63 walks, he’s on pace for 113. His previous career high is 74. He’s also striking out more, but that’s mostly due to his trouble making contact early in the season, as he fanned 17 times in April and 20 times in May. ESPN Stats & Information reports that he was having trouble catching up to fastballs early in the season, hitting just .280 against them in 100 at-bats through the first two months. He’s hit .429 against fastballs since, and in 34 games since June 1, he’s drawn 28 walks against just 12 strikeouts while hitting .351 with a 1.072 OPS.

    What’s amazing about the walks, of course, is who follows Pedroia in the lineup: Gonzalez. So much for the old theory about "protection" -- Pedroia is third in the AL in walks drawn. While Gonzalez has been amazingly productive, a key to his success has been the ability of Ellsbury and Pedroia getting on base in front of him; only Ryan Howard has come to the plate with more runners on base this season than Gonzalez. Unlike his days with the Padres, when Gonzalez had a weaker supporting cast, pitchers can’t just walk him if runners are already on.

    For all the attention Gonzalez has been getting, Pedroia (and Ellsbury) has posted similar value to the Red Sox. Gonzalez’s glossy RBI total may be more eye-catching, but Pedroia is producing big numbers at a position where a lot of teams don’t receive much offense.

    The MVP race seems to be a two-man ballot between Gonzalez and Bautista, but I would argue that Pedroia deserves to be in the discussion, especially if he hits in the second half close to the way he has the past 30 games or so.

    Not bad for a guy who watched the All-Star Game on television
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Scott Rolen was an All-star, great fielder but 19th best hitting at 3rd in NL


    what's rolen have to do with anything

    the players did not vote for him


    Who is having the best season at 2nd in AL?


    OMG

    what's next

    who's better nomar or jeter ?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Some interesting numbers regarding Martin and Salty:

    Since April 24 (almost the entire season), Martin's slash line is: .192/.302/.285

    Since May 25 (almost two full months), Martin is: .164/.273/.218
    Martin is a consummate pro, and he does a lot of little things...like Dustin Pedroia, he's worth having even when his bat is cold. But...dang Russ...Rey Ordonez called, and he wants his bat back.


    As for Salty, since April 17 (basically, once the Sox got over their poor start), his slash line is: .267/.337/.485

    Since May 15 (basically exactly two full months), he is: .278/.364/.557


    There's no clear correct answer to this question, as Martin has skills Salty doesn't have, but the creator of this thread is correct...back in mid-April, there wasn't even a hint of a future debate here...whereas it now looks like, if nothing else, Salty is the clearly better hitter.

    I do have to wonder, though...would Martin be holding on better if the Yanks hadn't ridden him like a dead horse? I knew that would come back to bite them, but I had no idea it would strike so hard and so quickly...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    But...dang Russ...Rey Ordonez called, and he wants his bat back.


    LOL redsoxu571

    I do have to wonder, though...would Martin be holding on better if the Yanks hadn't ridden him like a dead horse? I knew that would come back to bite them, but I had no idea it would strike so hard and so quickly...


    good point

    I have NP giving the nod to salty right now

    but we still have a ways to go
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from b126962. Show b126962's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]Scott Rolen was an All-star, great fielder but 19th best hitting at 3rd in NL what's rolen have to do with anything the players did not vote for him Who is having the best season at 2nd in AL? OMG what's next who's better nomar or jeter ?
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]
    Nomar
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Nomar
    Posted by b126962[/QUOTE]

    jim rice or horace clark ?
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : jim rice or horace clark ?
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]
    LOL
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    "who's better nomar or jeter ?"

    Nomar, of course! Jeter is one of the worst defenders in the league at shortstop. He'll be moved to second base or the outfield by the time he is 28. Nomar? Now *there's* an All-Star shortstop for you!

    I'm cool with Salty. The Red Sox need some youth at the position, not a stop-gap. Am not at all certain that Lavarnway has the defensive skill to be a #1 catcher, though he could have tremendous value as a #2 catcher and starting DH.

    Seems the Yankees are happy with Martin as well. Can't knock his defense and they obviously don't need any more offense. The Yankees are surely more concerned with their starting pitching than anything else -- and with the #2 record in the AL, it isn't as if they have any overwhelming weaknesses.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from kbair. Show kbair's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    all star voting is flawed. that is how jeter ended up getting voted into the starting lineup over cabrera, etc., etc.
    i think that what pinstripezac32 is illustrating is the respect that other players have for martin as evidenced by them voting for him in the all-star game. (full disclosure: i do not know who the players voted for, i am taking his word for it.)
    russell martin is a good catcher, but his stats don't back up the assertation that he is that much better than salty.
    saltalamacchia has been much maligned for being not particularly adept behind the plate. however, his fielding percentage is higher than martins (.997 to .987), his zone rating is 3.525 which is higher than the al leader torrealba's 3.427 and martin's 3.242 (because salty has not caught enough games to qualify). his range factor, at 7.34 is good enough for 9th (martin is third.) salty has thrown out baserunners at .246 while martin has done so at .263. anyone who knows anything knows that stolen bases are as much the fault of the pitcher as the catcher. baserunners judge their theft based on the pitcher not who is catching.
    the major detracting point is the passed balls. halfway through the season salty has 12 while martin has 3. what are you going to do? salty catches wakefield. there are going to be passed balls.
    stats are useful if for no other reason than backing up what you are watching.
    for example, salty has a better hitting average than martin: .247 to .223 while martin gets on base more: .325 to .319. this is due to the fact that martin walks more than salty (11.9% to 8.8%) which could be attributed to experience... veteran players are often more disceplined than younger players (except for varitek.)
    if you prefer a non-stat arguement, imagine that the teams were reversed. new york sigs much ballyhooed prospect jarrod saltalamacchia and anoits him the starting catcher in preseason. after a slow start that tests the patience of yankee management and fans, he comes on strong and starts hitting better than the aging professional that the rival red sox signed. how would you view your starting catcher?
    the point is this: almost every poster who participated in the position by position comparison between the yankees and red sox this preseason, if they were honest, marked down an advantage yankees. now, halfway through the season it looks more like a push. which denotes progress. we'll take progress any day.
     
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