Salty/Russell Martin Debate

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    I stay with Salty. He is still young and has considerable potential upside. Moreso than Martin, but not by a large amount. Still, I like how he has battled back. And his batting average is considerably improved since the beginning of the season.  His arm has gotten stronger and more accurate.


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    I still don't understand all of the hype around Martin.  Other than his hot streak to start the season (which clearly stayed in the players minds for all-star voting, he really hasn't done anything special this season.  For the people saying he has power at the C position, he's averaging a HR every 24.7 AB's.  Salty is averaging one every 27.7 AB's.  Martin's better, but is it really that significant when considering Martin's .706 OPS for the year compared to Salty's .758?

    Martin has thrown out 27.2% of base stealers compared to Salty's 24.6%.  Again, fairly comparable.  I'm ignoring pastball counts because Martin isn't catching a knuckleballer, which greatly skews the data, although FWIW Salty has 12 PB"s to Martin's 3.

    Martin's baserunning is rated at -0.1 compared to Salty's -0.4, which is what causes the 0.3 difference in WAR between the two players. (Salty 1.4, Martin 1.7)

    They are both certainly nice to have, but neither player has had an all-star quality season this year.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]all star voting is flawed. that is how jeter ended up getting voted into the starting lineup over cabrera, etc., etc. i think that what pinstripezac32 is illustrating is the respect that other players have for martin as evidenced by them voting for him in the all-star game. (full disclosure: i do not know who the players voted for, i am taking his word for it.) russell martin is a good catcher, but his stats don't back up the assertation that he is that much better than salty. saltalamacchia has been much maligned for being not particularly adept behind the plate. however, his fielding percentage is higher than martins (.997 to .987), his zone rating is 3.525 which is higher than the al leader torrealba's 3.427 and martin's 3.242 (because salty has not caught enough games to qualify). his range factor, at 7.34 is good enough for 9th (martin is third.) salty has thrown out baserunners at .246 while martin has done so at .263. anyone who knows anything knows that stolen bases are as much the fault of the pitcher as the catcher. baserunners judge their theft based on the pitcher not who is catching. the major detracting point is the passed balls. halfway through the season salty has 12 while martin has 3. what are you going to do? salty catches wakefield. there are going to be passed balls. stats are useful if for no other reason than backing up what you are watching. for example, salty has a better hitting average than martin: .247 to .223 while martin gets on base more: .325 to .319. this is due to the fact that martin walks more than salty (11.9% to 8.8%) which could be attributed to experience... veteran players are often more disceplined than younger players (except for varitek.) if you prefer a non-stat arguement, imagine that the teams were reversed. new york sigs much ballyhooed prospect jarrod saltalamacchia and anoits him the starting catcher in preseason. after a slow start that tests the patience of yankee management and fans, he comes on strong and starts hitting better than the aging professional that the rival red sox signed. how would you view your starting catcher? the point is this: almost every poster who participated in the position by position comparison between the yankees and red sox this preseason, if they were honest, marked down an advantage yankees. now, halfway through the season it looks more like a push. which denotes progress. we'll take progress any day.
    Posted by kbair[/QUOTE]

    beat me to it.....

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]Scott Rolen was an All-star, great fielder but 19th best hitting at 3rd in NL what's rolen have to do with anything the players did not vote for him Who is having the best season at 2nd in AL? OMG what's next who's better nomar or jeter ?
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]

    How bout Fisk over Munson!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    I think Salty is going to the Sox main catcher for the coming years. I think slowly he is beginning to realiz some of the potential that has been assigned to him since he was a kid. I think tek has helped in that regard....by mentoring Salty on managing a game and a pitching staff and studying the league it has freed him up a little to be more comfortable at the plate....with his size he has 20-25 HR power....yes he is inconsistent throwing out runners but he has a strong arm and I think that will improve also.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mfymfy. Show mfymfy's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Don't kid yourself. Martin is at best an average catcher. Over the last few seasons his bat has gone steadily south. Lots of catchers have "calm game-calling ability."
    ( How does you know this for certain? ) Do you think that the Dodgers would have let him go if he is all that you say he is?  For Rod Barajas?----expitch
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Man, the person you describe sounds great.  Russell Martin is hitting .220.  It can't be the same guy. ----jimdavis
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------You asked a baseball question about two players. But you two are locked up in your perpetual "if its's a Sox player, he has to be better" BS.

    Martin has been exactly what the Yankees were looking for. Several time All Star, experienced and can handle a staff, who plays exceptional defense and can hit and steal a base. He's batting .220 right now and that's way below his career # but you didn't say a word when he was batting .300. One look at his baseball card will tell you that he's quality and a relatively young guy.

    The Yankees have run him out there almost every night because of Cervelli's injury so he never gets a rest. Is the .220 because he's tired? Could be. But in the Yankee lineup, you can absorb someone's slumps.  As for LA, he had some type of conflict--he doesn't really address it--with the Dodgers. That's why he's not there. Not because of his playing ability. Like it or not, the Yanks love the guy. If the Sox love Salty and he' does all the things Martin does and better, then you have yourself a winner.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

     I'm ignoring pastball counts because Martin isn't catching a knuckleballer, which greatly skews the data, although FWIW Salty has 12 PB"s to Martin's 3.

    Oh please. Plenty of Salty's PB's have come when Wake is not pitching. Vmart had 4 PBs all of last year, so I'm not buying that excuse.
    He's pitiful behind the plate and would be better off at 1B.
    Saltalamacchia will not survive long as an MLB catcher and I look for him to be converted to a 1B at some point down the road.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kbair. Show kbair's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    boston has had catchers that are inconsistant throwing out baserunners for years. the last time we had a ligitimate cs% was varitek in '03 and '04 at .277 and .274. in '07 and '08 v-mart posted a .320 and .371... with boston he posted a .214 and left with the reputation of having a weak arm. how is this v-mart's fault?
    remember crawford's five steal game? remember who was pitching? wakefield. remember who was catching? me niether.
    lester keeps baserunners honest. beyond that the red sox can be run on and it has nothing to do with who is catching.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from kbair. Show kbair's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]  I'm ignoring pastball counts because Martin isn't catching a knuckleballer, which greatly skews the data, although FWIW Salty has 12 PB"s to Martin's 3. Oh please. Plenty of Salty's PB's have come when Wake is not pitching. Vmart had 4 PBs all of last year, so I'm not buying that excuse. He's pitiful behind the plate and would be better off at 1B. Saltalamacchia will not survive long as an MLB catcher and I look for him to be converted to a 1B at some point down the road.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]


    how many? i can't find that data anywhere. i guess it to be about a passed ball every other start. does that sound fair? so that would account for 6 pb as wakefield has started 12 games. then there are the examples like last night where he is catching a flamethrower who the Globe reports is "struggling with command." he is certainly not 'pitiful' behind the dish. if you use any way of measuring his performance you will find that he is average as a defensive catcher to this point in his career.
    if you think it is easy catching a knuckleballer just because v-mart had only 4 pb last year then good for you. i have never heard that it was easy from any major league source.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]Some interesting numbers regarding Martin and Salty: Since April 24 (almost the entire season), Martin's slash line is: .192/.302/.285 Since May 25 (almost two full months), Martin is: .164/.273/.218 Martin is a consummate pro, and he does a lot of little things...like Dustin Pedroia, he's worth having even when his bat is cold. But...dang Russ...Rey Ordonez called, and he wants his bat back. As for Salty, since April 17 (basically, once the Sox got over their poor start), his slash line is: .267/.337/.485 Since May 15 (basically exactly two full months), he is: .278/.364/.557 There's no clear correct answer to this question, as Martin has skills Salty doesn't have, but the creator of this thread is correct...back in mid-April, there wasn't even a hint of a future debate here...whereas it now looks like, if nothing else, Salty is the clearly better hitter. I do have to wonder, though...would Martin be holding on better if the Yanks hadn't ridden him like a dead horse? I knew that would come back to bite them, but I had no idea it would strike so hard and so quickly...
    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]

    Exactly 571.  I'm not saying the answer is clearcut.  I'm just saying that the April Salty bashing was alittle bit much and the praise for Martin was over the top also.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]  I'm ignoring pastball counts because Martin isn't catching a knuckleballer, which greatly skews the data, although FWIW Salty has 12 PB"s to Martin's 3. Oh please. Plenty of Salty's PB's have come when Wake is not pitching. Vmart had 4 PBs all of last year, so I'm not buying that excuse. He's pitiful behind the plate and would be better off at 1B. Saltalamacchia will not survive long as an MLB catcher and I look for him to be converted to a 1B at some point down the road.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    He only had 2 PB's in 2009 with the Rangers (83 games).  Last year was a lost season at the MLB level.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : how many? i can't find that data anywhere. i guess it to be about a passed ball every other start. does that sound fair? so that would account for 6 pb as wakefield has started 12 games. then there are the examples like last night where he is catching a flamethrower who the Globe reports is "struggling with command." he is certainly not 'pitiful' behind the dish. if you use any way of measuring his performance you will find that he is average as a defensive catcher to this point in his career. if you think it is easy catching a knuckleballer just because v-mart had only 4 pb last year then good for you. i have never heard that it was easy from any major league source.
    Posted by kbair[/QUOTE]

    Without checking Play by Play just Box Scores, I count 10 of Saltys 12 PB coming in games that Wakefield pitched. They could have come while another pitcher was on the mound but unlikely
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    There should be a separate stat for passed knuckleballs...call it a PK and 5 of them equals one regular passed ball.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kbair. Show kbair's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Without checking Play by Play just Box Scores, I count 10 of Saltys 12 PB coming in games that Wakefield pitched. They could have come while another pitcher was on the mound but unlikely
    Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE]


    oh, cool. thanks for the info.
    the next piece will be to find out how many stolen bases come off of wakefield and how that skews the cs% numbers.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    The thing about baseball is there is a stat for everything.  If you are trying to make a case that a player is good (or no good) and can't find a stat to support it, it's probably not true.  You can't trust your eyes, because you can't be watching 30 players at the same time, so there is no way for you to be objective about how good a player is relative to others at his position.  Maybe Martin looks good to Yankee fans because they were accustomed to Posada behind the plate.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]all star voting is flawed. that is how jeter ended up getting voted into the starting lineup over cabrera, etc., etc. i think that what pinstripezac32 is illustrating is the respect that other players have for martin as evidenced by them voting for him in the all-star game. (full disclosure: i do not know who the players voted for, i am taking his word for it.) russell martin is a good catcher, but his stats don't back up the assertation that he is that much better than salty. saltalamacchia has been much maligned for being not particularly adept behind the plate. however, his fielding percentage is higher than martins (.997 to .987), his zone rating is 3.525 which is higher than the al leader torrealba's 3.427 and martin's 3.242 (because salty has not caught enough games to qualify). his range factor, at 7.34 is good enough for 9th (martin is third.) salty has thrown out baserunners at .246 while martin has done so at .263. anyone who knows anything knows that stolen bases are as much the fault of the pitcher as the catcher. baserunners judge their theft based on the pitcher not who is catching. the major detracting point is the passed balls. halfway through the season salty has 12 while martin has 3. what are you going to do? salty catches wakefield. there are going to be passed balls. stats are useful if for no other reason than backing up what you are watching. for example, salty has a better hitting average than martin: .247 to .223 while martin gets on base more: .325 to .319. this is due to the fact that martin walks more than salty (11.9% to 8.8%) which could be attributed to experience... veteran players are often more disceplined than younger players (except for varitek.) if you prefer a non-stat arguement, imagine that the teams were reversed. new york sigs much ballyhooed prospect jarrod saltalamacchia and anoits him the starting catcher in preseason. after a slow start that tests the patience of yankee management and fans, he comes on strong and starts hitting better than the aging professional that the rival red sox signed. how would you view your starting catcher? the point is this: almost every poster who participated in the position by position comparison between the yankees and red sox this preseason, if they were honest, marked down an advantage yankees. now, halfway through the season it looks more like a push. which denotes progress. we'll take progress any day.
    Posted by kbair[/QUOTE]



    all voting is flawed when you allow idiots to vote.
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]boston has had catchers that are inconsistant throwing out baserunners for years. the last time we had a ligitimate cs% was varitek in '03 and '04 at .277 and .274. in '07 and '08 v-mart posted a .320 and .371... with boston he posted a .214 and left with the reputation of having a weak arm. how is this v-mart's fault? remember crawford's five steal game? remember who was pitching? wakefield. remember who was catching? me niether. lester keeps baserunners honest. beyond that the red sox can be run on and it has nothing to do with who is catching.
    Posted by kbair[/QUOTE]


    100% agree! unfortunately, it's the catcher who gets stuck holding the % bag.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate


    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]There should be a separate stat for passed knuckleballs...call it a PK and 5 of them equals one regular passed ball.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    LOL nut

    but they do

    they call it a wild pitch

    and if it's not a WP

     then it's a passed ball

    not sure why it matters  who's pitching
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]Scott Rolen was an All-star, great fielder but 19th best hitting at 3rd in NL what's rolen have to do with anything the players did not vote for him Who is having the best season at 2nd in AL? OMG what's next who's better nomar or jeter ?
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]

    The players whose vote you rate as important didn't pick the best 2nd baseman to go to Arizona!  All-Star selections, Gold Gloves, and Rbi leader boards are for the weak minded.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : LOL nut but they do they call it a wild pitch and if it's not a WP  then it's a passed ball not sure why it matters  who's pitching
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]

    I think it matters alot......if the ball doesnt hit the dirt and glances off the catchers glove they are calling it a passed ball. If that happens on a fastball or a curve, its the catchers fault.....with a knuckleball, when you don;t know which way it is going to break....still the catchers fault but a little more understandable
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : LOL nut but they do they call it a wild pitch and if it's not a WP  then it's a passed ball not sure why it matters  who's pitching
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]

    Well if it's true that 10 of Salty's 12 passed balls were from Wakefield I'd have to say it's pretty clear why it matters...the knuckler is not only hard to catch, but the official scorers have no idea who to blame when it goes to the backstop.  
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from kebbe. Show kebbe's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

       How could anyone possibly say Martin has a good stick and Salty is "OK"when Salty is better than 20 percentage points higher than Martin and has shown an emrging power(look at the number of doubles as weel as home runs).Also,a poster said that he felt that Martin is a very good catcher and appreciated by Yankees fans.Certainly he has a whole lot more experience that Salty and is better than Salty behind the plate and in handling pitchers,primarily because of his time in the majors,compared to Salty but remains a slightly above average major league catcher,However,Salty is improving with each game.Granted he has a ways to go defensively but he has a terrific work ethic and a developing relationship with the Sox pitchers and I am confident that he will become at worst an ordinary(average)major league catcher dfensively.By the way Salty has a strong arm but he has a lot of technical improvement in terms of his fundamentals in getting rid of the ball quickly.On the whole,you take Salty. 
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate


    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I think it matters alot......if the ball doesnt hit the dirt and glances off the catchers glove they are calling it a passed ball. If that happens on a fastball or a curve, its the catchers fault.....with a knuckleball, when you don;t know which way it is going to break....still the catchers fault but a little more understandable
    Posted by tomnev[/QUOTE]

    point taken tom

    but isn't  the official scorer suppose to take such things into account






    I hear you hfxnut
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Let's see, getting voted into the ASG by your peers and widely considered the finest receiver currently in the game despite injuries and a knack for the big hit vs a perceived 4A player at the beginning of the year, who was in trouble for being demoted in April but since then has, to his credit, improved.

    I don't think I need to peel back the curtain.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mfymfy. Show mfymfy's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    How could anyone possibly say Martin has a good stick and Salty is "OK"when Salty is better than 20 percentage points higher than Martin ---kebbe
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not to be argumentative, but where were you when Martin was hitting .300? He  slumped to.220 so it must be a good time now to make the argument. BTW, what's Salty batting in July? ... .219. Give Salty a few years to build up his baseball card. Martin already has the credentials.
     

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