Salty/Russell Martin Debate

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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]How could anyone possibly say Martin has a good stick and Salty is "OK"when Salty is better than 20 percentage points higher than Martin ---kebbe --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not to be argumentative, but where were you when Martin was hitting .300? He  slumped to.220 so it must be a good time now to make the argument. BTW, what's Salty batting in July? ... .219. Give Salty a few years to build up his baseball card. Martin already has the credentials.
    Posted by mfymfy[/QUOTE]

    It's not just that Martin is bad offensively right now - it's that he's in line with the previous two bad offensive seasons.  Any offensive credentials Martin had are long gone.

    For the record, when Martin was hitting .300, I said he was likely to fade, and that the Sox would have better numbers at C when all was said and done.  Still plenty of time for me to be wrong, but Martin and Salty have been trending in opposite directions for quite a while.


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]Let's see, getting voted into the ASG by your peers and widely considered the finest receiver currently in the game despite injuries and a knack for the big hit vs a perceived 4A player at the beginning of the year, who was in trouble for being demoted in April but since then has, to his credit, improved. I don't think I need to peel back the curtain.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Isn't the false perception the curtain, and the statistics what you see when you pull it back?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : It's not just that Martin is bad offensively right now - it's that he's in line with the previous two bad offensive seasons.  Any offensive credentials Martin had are long gone. For the record, when Martin was hitting .300, I said he was likely to fade, and that the Sox would have better numbers at C when all was said and done.  Still plenty of time for me to be wrong, but Martin and Salty have been trending in opposite directions for quite a while.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I think you are right Slomag...Even in his best years with the Dodgers he was a 280 hitter and he never hit more than 19 hrs. As well as htting 230 he has hit 1 HR since May 24th. You couldnt be trending in 2 bigger directions.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE] Not to be argumentative, but where were you when Martin was hitting .300? He  slumped to.220 so it must be a good time now to make the argument. BTW, what's Salty batting in July? ... .219. Give Salty a few years to build up his baseball card. Martin already has the credentials.
    Posted by mfymfy[/QUOTE]

    Yes, Salty is just hitting .219 this month.  However, he is still posting an OPS of .785 in the month of July, well above league average for a catcher.

    Martin meanwhile is hitting just .186 this month, with an OPS of just .542.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]Let's see, getting voted into the ASG by your peers and widely considered the finest receiver currently in the game despite injuries and a knack for the big hit vs a perceived 4A player at the beginning of the year, who was in trouble for being demoted in April but since then has, to his credit, improved. I don't think I need to peel back the curtain.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    He's been hitting below .200 since the start of May.  Does that sound like an All-Star to you?  All-Star votes are to be made based on production in the current season.  I don't think it's unreasonable to say that he hasn't been performing at a level consistent with an All-Star.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fenwayjack2. Show fenwayjack2's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]I still think Salty was a risk....however, with risk comes reward....it appears to have started to pay dividends. 
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    I admire him for having some guts.  He was obviously grimacing in pain last nite but refused to wimp out and turn it over the Varitek. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]as far as not being '' AS material  '' like I said I sort of fancy the MLB players who voted him an AS over posters from RSN Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE] Scott Rolen was an All-star, great fielder but 19th best hitting at 3rd in NL   Who is having the best season at 2nd in AL?  Pedroia having better season than Cano July, 15, 2011 By David Schoenfield Here are the All-Star break statistics for two players who play the same position on playoff contenders: Player A: .296, 15 HR, 57 RBI, 87 games Player B: .284, 11 HR, 44 RBI, 87 games Which guy is having the better season? What if I told you Player A won the fan vote for his position, started the All-Star Game and won the Home Run Derby. Player B, meanwhile, didn’t make the All-Star team or even get listed as one of the five finalists in his league for the final player vote. Pedroia Cano So who is having the better season? The answer, of course, is player B -- Dustin Pedroia . He’s having an MVP-caliber season that is not only more impressive than Robinson Cano 's, but is flying under the recognition radar, which is pretty amazing for a former MVP who plays for the Red Sox. First off, let’s compare the offensive totals of Pedroia and Cano. PEDROIA 409 PAs, .284/.395/.442, 19 2B, 1 3B, 11 HR, 44 RBI, 59 R, 63 BB, 49 SO That translates to 66 runs created. Pedroia has used up 257 outs, so he’s created about 6.9 runs for every 27 outs. CANO 368 PAs, .296/.342/.521, 21 2B, 5 3B, 15 HR, 57 RBI, 57 R, 17 BB, 46 SO That translates to 57 runs created. Cano has used up 256 outs, so he’s created about 6.9 runs for every 27 outs The main difference between the two is Pedroia’s advantage in walks -- 63 to 17. That’s 46 more times he’s been on base than Cano. So while Cano has more power, Pedroia’s 57-point advantage in on-base percentage means he’s used up fewer outs to produce his runs. He’s been the better offensive player. When you add in defense, the split gets even larger. Cano won a Gold Glove last year. And while he was decent last season, if not really Gold Glove-worthy, his defensive numbers are mediocre this year. Pedroia, meanwhile, has been outstanding. Baseball Info Solutions rates Pedroia as having saved eight runs compared to the average second baseman, while Cano rates as minus-3. Ultimate Zone Rating has an even larger difference, with Pedroia at plus-10 and Cano at minus-5. It all adds up to Pedroia being one of the best players in the American League. Here are the WAR (wins above a replacement level player) leaders for the AL from FanGraphs: Jose Bautista , 6.6 Adrian Gonzalez , 4.8 Jacoby Ellsbury , 4.8 Curtis Granderson , 4.7 Pedroia, 4.7 Cano is down the list at 2.9. The most interesting thing about Pedroia’s season is his walk rate. With 63 walks, he’s on pace for 113. His previous career high is 74. He’s also striking out more, but that’s mostly due to his trouble making contact early in the season, as he fanned 17 times in April and 20 times in May. ESPN Stats & Information reports that he was having trouble catching up to fastballs early in the season, hitting just .280 against them in 100 at-bats through the first two months. He’s hit .429 against fastballs since, and in 34 games since June 1, he’s drawn 28 walks against just 12 strikeouts while hitting .351 with a 1.072 OPS. What’s amazing about the walks, of course, is who follows Pedroia in the lineup: Gonzalez. So much for the old theory about "protection" -- Pedroia is third in the AL in walks drawn. While Gonzalez has been amazingly productive, a key to his success has been the ability of Ellsbury and Pedroia getting on base in front of him; only Ryan Howard has come to the plate with more runners on base this season than Gonzalez. Unlike his days with the Padres, when Gonzalez had a weaker supporting cast, pitchers can’t just walk him if runners are already on. For all the attention Gonzalez has been getting, Pedroia (and Ellsbury) has posted similar value to the Red Sox. Gonzalez’s glossy RBI total may be more eye-catching, but Pedroia is producing big numbers at a position where a lot of teams don’t receive much offense. The MVP race seems to be a two-man ballot between Gonzalez and Bautista, but I would argue that Pedroia deserves to be in the discussion, especially if he hits in the second half close to the way he has the past 30 games or so. Not bad for a guy who watched the All-Star Game on television
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]
    Whos having a better year CC Sabathia or any Red Sox pitcher?

    CC
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Salty hit some in the retirement league. Not as much in the A. L. in comparison.
    Ditto Martin.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Isn't the false perception the curtain, and the statistics what you see when you pull it back?
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    His injuries the last couple of yrs has made his stick light, that's for sure. But, as regards to his defensive skills and game calling; have you seen the games he's played in, or do you play rotisserie baseball?  Not a good choice when you're dealing with the catcher position.

    I could care less if he hits .186 the rest of the yr; the Yankees seem happy with him too.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bald-predictions. Show bald-predictions's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : His injuries the last couple of yrs has made his stick light, that's for sure. But, as regards to his defensive skills and game calling; have you seen the games he's played in, or do you play rotisserie baseball?  Not a good choice when you're dealing with the catcher position. I could care less if he hits .186 the rest of the yr; the Yankees seem happy with him too.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]
    Your probably right steve. Through the first month, the Martin signing seemed inspired. Jesus Montero and Austin Romine had flopped in spring training, and Martin came roaring out of the gate with a .293 average and six home runs in April. He’s hit just .185 since then, but the pitching staff seems to love everything about him – his personality, his game calling, his ability to block A.J. Burnett’s curveballs – and it says a lot about the state of catching in the American League that Martin was voted to the all-star team on the players’ ballot. Good everyday catchers are hard to find, and Martin’s been better than most.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : His injuries the last couple of yrs has made his stick light, that's for sure. But, as regards to his defensive skills and game calling; have you seen the games he's played in, or do you play rotisserie baseball?  Not a good choice when you're dealing with the catcher position. I could care less if he hits .186 the rest of the yr; the Yankees seem happy with him too.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    I thought it was those hip-breaking steroids that made his stick heavy to begin with?

    You really think the team that went with Jorge Posada for fifteen years is satisfied with a light-hitting defensive C?  


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrh1194. Show jrh1194's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : He's been hitting below .200 since the start of May.  Does that sound like an All-Star to you?  All-Star votes are to be made based on production in the current season.  I don't think it's unreasonable to say that he hasn't been performing at a level consistent with an All-Star.
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]

    I agree. Martin should not have been an All-Star. He didn't deserve it any more than Salty would have.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Salty had a great June, but his July hasn't been so good.  He's batting .219 in July with 32 at bats.  In June, he batted .327 with 52 at bats.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrh1194. Show jrh1194's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]Salty had a great June, but his July hasn't been so good.  He's batting .219 in July with 32 at bats.  In June, he batted .327 with 52 at bats.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    Let's hope that he can put together more than 1 good month!!!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Let's hope that he can put together more than 1 good month!!!
    Posted by jrh1194[/QUOTE]

    He's actually only had one bad month offensively:
    OPS
    April - .547
    May - .756
    June - .945
    July - .785

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I thought it was those hip-breaking steroids that made his stick heavy to begin with? You really think the team that went with Jorge Posada for fifteen years is satisfied with a light-hitting defensive C?  
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I always thought Posada was overrated, especially defensively. In general he called a lousy game, was a passed ball sieve; had at best an average arm in his prime, and was capable of bone head plays; not to forget the ego.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I agree. Martin should not have been an All-Star. He didn't deserve it any more than Salty would have.
    Posted by jrh1194[/QUOTE]

    I trust his ball playing peers over somebody that posts on this board; and defensively, it's not even close; Martin could outplay Salty behind the dish if he drank a case of beer beforehand, LOL. And Salty has a lousy arm, and is more prone to passed balls than even Posada or even VMart was. Salty has 12 Passed Balls, and the Qualified Leader has 8 (He hasn't played enough to qualify). Only Josh Thole has more (13, and not qualified as well).
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I thought it was those hip-breaking steroids that made his stick heavy to begin with? You really think the team that went with Jorge Posada for fifteen years is satisfied with a light-hitting defensive C?  
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    While I'm not saying this isn't a possibility, I don't recall any whispers about him, nor any significant change in his body type; unlike Lowell.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Your probably right steve. Through the first month, the Martin signing seemed inspired. Jesus Montero and Austin Romine had flopped in spring training, and Martin came roaring out of the gate with a .293 average and six home runs in April. He’s hit just .185 since then, but the pitching staff seems to love everything about him – his personality, his game calling, his ability to block A.J. Burnett’s curveballs – and it says a lot about the state of catching in the American League that Martin was voted to the all-star team on the players’ ballot. Good everyday catchers are hard to find, and Martin’s been better than most.
    Posted by bald-predictions[/QUOTE]

    Ley's not forget his plays at the plate. I admit, you know your stuff.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I trust his ball playing peers over somebody that posts on this board; and defensively, it's not even close; Martin could outplay Salty behind the dish if he drank a case of beer beforehand, LOL. And Salty has a lousy arm, and is more prone to passed balls than even Posada or even VMart was. Salty has 12 Passed Balls , and the Qualified Leader has 8 (He hasn't played enough to qualify). Only Josh Thole has more (13, and not qualified as well).
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    I'm not disagreeing with you, nh, but...

    How many of his passed balls are with Wake and the knuckleball?

    How many other catchers have to catch as knuckleball?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I'm not disagreeing with you, nh, but... How many of his passed balls are with Wake and the knuckleball? How many other catchers have to catch as knuckleball?
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    That's valid, but he wasn't very good defensively before he was on the RS either; his strength (which is why they liked him) is his good batting eye, and his approach at the plate.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    2011 CS rate:
    Salty: 25%
    Martin: 27%

    Martin doesn't have to catch Wake.
    Boston does not advocate the slide step.

    CERA: in limited frame of reference, it favors Salty over the last 2-3 years.
    Let's see where Salty is when he has the amount of experience Martin has.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    I have read past the first few ...


       But I'll address it as an upside issue:

       Martin may have several more useful years in him...

      But I think Salty is just scratching the surface of his skills - and being younger, may be playing well for years to come

     

     
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]2011 CS rate: Salty: 25% Martin: 27% Martin doesn't have to catch Wake. Boston does not advocate the slide step. CERA: in limited frame of reference, it favors Salty over the last 2-3 years. Let's see where Salty is when he has the amount of experience Martin has.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Sorry harness, but you're cherry picking here (for example, why did you not look at this yrs' CERA, 3.70 vs 4.48, but DID look at this yr's CS %, when Martin led MLB in 2010 in this category for those that played in at least 72 games?), you who has broken down CERA in every which way should know better. All I know is the performance of the Yankee pitchers seems to have significantly improved with Martin; if they were both catching the same pitchers in the same venues against the same competition, then you would have a better frame of reference.
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : His injuries the last couple of yrs has made his stick light, that's for sure. But, as regards to his defensive skills and game calling; have you seen the games he's played in, or do you play rotisserie baseball?  Not a good choice when you're dealing with the catcher position. I could care less if he hits .186 the rest of the yr; the Yankees seem happy with him too.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    I know how that feels....


        
     

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