Salty/Russell Martin Debate

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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Steve, that is the reference I am using.
    Compare Martin to his counterparts in his years with LA - and do the same for Salty in Texas. The numbers don't sway in Martin's favor. Is it enough to make a valid determination? No. Have you compared each NY pitcher with each NY catcher this year? I haven't...yet. But Martin's track record was suspect in this area.

    Appearances can be deceptive. This NY staff might be compromised somewhat for all we know.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    Steve , that is the reference I am using. Compare Martin to his counterparts in his years with LA - and do the same for Salty in Texas. The numbers don't sway in Martin's favor. Is it enough to make a valid determination? No. Have you compared each NY pitcher with each NY catcher this year? I haven't...yet. But Martin's track record was suspect in this area. Appearances can be deceptive. This NY staff might be compromised somewhat for all we know.
    Posted by harness


    If you mean Colon, that's 1 P; sorry harness, ovelooking the fact that Martin led MLB in C CS % who played in 100 G or more in 2010 is cherry picking extraordinaire. Plus it's not good policy to go there as a general rule (The PED card). Perhaps a good case study is Yankee pitchers who pitched in 2009, 2010 and 2011. Your other suggestions are valid IMO as well.

    And to repeat, why did his peers vote him on the AS Squad, despite a lousy BA?
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Many question his AS selection.

    The issue is where both are at now.
    I wasn't referring to Colon or any one pitcher. Just the frame of reference.
    To put Salty down as you did in the defensive analogy with Martin is going over the top. I'm trying to put it into perspective.

    Salty is going in the right direction.
    His CS rate is improving, as is his bat since April.
    Martin is regressing with the bat. And his CS rate is also compared to his LA days.
    The CS rate is currently almost even, and considering Salty catches Wake, and Boston doesn't employ the side-step, I don't see this over-whelming edge you feel Martin has.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    2011 CS rate: Salty: 25% Martin: 27% Martin doesn't have to catch Wake. Boston does not advocate the slide step. CERA: in limited frame of reference, it favors Salty over the last 2-3 years. Let's see where Salty is when he has the amount of experience Martin has.
    Posted by harness


    harness, the CS% when Wake pitches is actually better than most other Sox starters this year:

    2011:
    Wake 4/8 (SB/SB Att)
    Lester 7/14
    Buch 6/9
    Beck 12/16
    Lackey 20/22
    Miller 1/1
    Aceves 5/5

    2010:
    Wake24/29 SB/SB Att.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    I know, Moon. That's my point. Any catcher who can throw out 50% of the runners with Wake has a decent arm.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    Many question his AS selection. The issue is where both are at now . I wasn't referring to Colon or any one pitcher. Just the frame of reference. To put Salty down as you did in the defensive analogy with Martin is going over the top. I'm trying to put it into perspective. Salty is going in the right direction. His CS rate is improving, as is his bat since April. Martin is regressing with the bat. And his CS rate is also compared to his LA days. The CS rate is currently almost even, and considering Salty catches Wake, and Boston doesn't employ the side-step, I don't see this over-whelming edge you feel Martin has.
    Posted by harness


    OK, I hear you, and shall keep that in mind; as far as my over the top stuff, I'm guilty, although I'm not the only one. My personal feeling on Martin is, by himself that is and compared to no one else, is I'll take him. Despite what I think overall of Cashman, he's done well in the past year; now if he can only Not bite on Jimenez...
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    What do you think overall of Cashman?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    What do you think overall of Cashman?
    Posted by harness


    Do I really have to? I think you can figure that out. Hint: How about those dozen or so pitchers he signed that worked out so well?

     
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Honestly, I can't. I don't follow the fan reaction to Cashman.
    NY's record falls in his favor, but the revenue output clouds the issue.
    Is he incompetent?
    Can another handle the pressure in better fashion?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Also, there's something not kosher in Colorado-land for them to be shopping Jimenez so profusely; given his contract situation (he's cheap for a couple of yrs) only exacerbates my suspicion.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    Honestly, I can't. I don't follow the fan reaction to Cashman. NY's record falls in his favor, but the revenue output clouds the issue. Is he incompetent? Can another handle the pressure in better fashion?
    Posted by harness


    Let's put it this way; would you trade Cashman for Theo straight up? QED.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    Also, there's something not kosher in Colorado-land for them to be shopping Jimenez so profusely; given his contract situation (he's cheap for a couple of yrs) only exacerbates my suspicion.
    Posted by nhsteven



    And, I wouldn't be adverse to trading Montero for him, but the pitchers are another matter; it seems to be easier to replace hitters than pitchers, especially when you have the bucks. See Cliff Lee and others.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Let's put it this way; would you trade Cashman for Theo straight up? QED.
    Posted by nhsteven


    Some here would. One in particular. But that job has ulcers written all over it.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Some here would. One in particular. But that job has ulcers written all over it.
    Posted by harness


    You mean that Theo-chick caller Law? Haven't seen him in a while.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    I meant the softer version.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    I meant the softer version.
    Posted by harness


    He doesn't like anybody; including himself.


    Except he has a man-crush on Matt Kemp.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    If you build it, they will come.

    If you fantasize enough, it becomes UR reality
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Do I really have to? I think you can figure that out. Hint: How about those dozen or so pitchers he signed that worked out so well?  
    Posted by nhsteven


    True on those pitchers but off the top of my head I'd take his record lately over Theo.  If Theo walked I'd take him in a flash.

    Getting Granderson and Swisher for relatively little were great moves.  Picking and sticking with Gardner, who is proving his detractors very wrong. Not to mention Colon and Garcia!

    His current bullpen is pretty solid 3.13 ERA, and it is almost all drafted or on the cheap. 

    He drafted/signed Hughed, Montero, B & B, and Cano!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Let's put it this way; would you trade Cashman for Theo straight up? QED.
    Posted by nhsteven



    actually, theo would be a good fit in NY. he'd have an even bigger budget to BLUNDER ON with.
    yes, theo with the SKANKEES would be favorable for the RED SOX.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Reason that everyone is worry about Salty is that he cant throw to either to the pitcher or second base which that happened two to three years ago.  It was just his mentally problem inside of his head where it also lead him to be a bad hitter too.  Once he saw his sport psychologist to fix his mentally problem, he suddenly playing like he belong playing in MLB.  He just turned his life around just like Josh Hamilton.  

    Also Tek have taught him alot of things.  Good thing Tek is around for him.

    Go Salty and the Red Sox team!!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Salty had surgery on his shoulder and it affected his normal throwing motion.
    It got into his head and he had to re-learn it.
    From what I've read, it's like having a stroke - and having to be re-taught normal bodily function.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    I know, Moon . That's my point. Any catcher who can throw out 50% of the runners with Wake has a decent arm.
    Posted by harness


    Every catcher in the big leagues has a decent arm, some have guns. Arm stregnth plays a role in defending the running game but is not the most critical skill....You can have a gun, but if you can't catch, tranfer and throw the ball in less then 1 second, you're arm strength doesn't deter guys from running, it's how quickly you get the ball to second (plus the pitchers time to first). In todays game basestealing has become more about the math than the speed of the guy on first or his ability to get a jump on the pitcher...That and IMHO CS% is not the penulitimate stat in quantifiying a catchers abiltiy to control the running game. Rather how often do teams run on a particular guy...Teams don't run on Yadier Molina, they do run on Varitek who has never been even in his prime quick release guy, and it also doesn't help that the Sox have never been a team that waste pitches (pitchouts) and focus more on getting out the hitter and making quality pitches aposed to the slide step. That said all things being equal Tek at his best would never be in the same class as guy like Molina or one of his contemporaries Irod...both of whom not only have strong arms, both very athletic catchers with quick feet!

    So comparing Martin who is the more athletic guy with a quicker release to Saltalamacchia who much like Varitek is a big guy and doesn't have the quickect feet which effect thier time to second. check the stats on the number of attemted steal and you'll see teams run on the Sox more than the Yanks...even if you subtract Wake's starts...

    Who's the better catcher...Martin....Who's the better all around player? Time will tell but given how well Saltilamacchia's playing today with his career in front of him...let's just say I like our guy and it's ok that they like thiers...
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Every catcher in the big leagues has a decent arm, some have guns. Arm stregnth plays a role in defending the running game but is not the most critical skill....You can have a gun, but if you can't catch, tranfer and throw the ball in less then 1 second, you're arm strength doesn't deter guys from running, it's how quickly you get the ball to second (plus the pitchers time to first). In todays game basestealing has become more about the math than the speed of the guy on first or his ability to get a jump on the pitcher...That and IMHO CS% is not the penulitimate stat in quantifiying a catchers abiltiy to control the running game. Rather how often do teams run on a particular guy...Teams don't run on Yadier Molina, they do run on Varitek who has never been even in his prime quick release guy, and it also doesn't help that the Sox have never been a team that waste pitches (pitchouts) and focus more on getting out the hitter and making quality pitches aposed to the slide step. That said all things being equal Tek at his best would never be in the same class as guy like Molina or one of his contemporaries Irod...both of whom not only have strong arms, both very athletic catchers with quick feet! So comparing Martin who is the more athletic guy with a quicker release to Saltalamacchia who much like Varitek is a big guy and doesn't have the quickect feet which effect thier time to second. check the stats on the number of attemted steal and you'll see teams run on the Sox more than the Yanks...even if you subtract Wake's starts... Who's the better catcher...Martin....Who's the better all around player? Time will tell but given how well Saltilamacchia's playing today with his career in front of him...let's just say I like our guy and it's ok that they like thiers...
    Posted by Beantowne

    Great post!  I think this also helps to explain the passed balls, particularly with Wakefield on the mound.   Salty has had 10 PBs but thrown out 4 of 8 would-be base stealers.  Vmart had 4 PBs, but threw out 4 of 21 base-stealers (with Wake on the mound).  Either way, the runner advances.  I think the difference is Salty is getting himself in position to throw a runner out, knowing there is a good chance the runner will go on Wake, and the result is that it is more difficult to keep a missed ball in front of him.  



     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Salty showing some nice LH pop the past couple of days..
     
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