Salty/Russell Martin Debate

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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Every catcher in the big leagues has a decent arm, some have guns. Arm stregnth plays a role in defending the running game but is not the most critical skill....You can have a gun, but if you can't catch, tranfer and throw the ball in less then 1 second, you're arm strength doesn't deter guys from running, it's how quickly you get the ball to second (plus the pitchers time to first). In todays game basestealing has become more about the math than the speed of the guy on first or his ability to get a jump on the pitcher...That and IMHO CS% is not the penulitimate stat in quantifiying a catchers abiltiy to control the running game. Rather how often do teams run on a particular guy...Teams don't run on Yadier Molina, they do run on Varitek who has never been even in his prime quick release guy, and it also doesn't help that the Sox have never been a team that waste pitches (pitchouts) and focus more on getting out the hitter and making quality pitches aposed to the slide step. That said all things being equal Tek at his best would never be in the same class as guy like Molina or one of his contemporaries Irod...both of whom not only have strong arms, both very athletic catchers with quick feet! So comparing Martin who is the more athletic guy with a quicker release to Saltalamacchia who much like Varitek is a big guy and doesn't have the quickect feet which effect thier time to second. check the stats on the number of attemted steal and you'll see teams run on the Sox more than the Yanks...even if you subtract Wake's starts... Who's the better catcher...Martin....Who's the better all around player? Time will tell but given how well Saltilamacchia's playing today with his career in front of him...let's just say I like our guy and it's ok that they like thiers...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Great post Bean.

    To me, CS% is a very small part of a catcher's total package. Look no further than Mike Napoli to prove the point. He's thrown out 27 and 36% of the runners the past 2 years, but still has been used more at 1B or DH, unless there has been a catcher injury.

    Even one of the worst hitters in all of MLB, Jeff Mathis, was chosen to catch over Napoli in LA.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Every catcher in the big leagues has a decent arm, some have guns. Arm stregnth plays a role in defending the running game but is not the most critical skill....You can have a gun, but if you can't catch, tranfer and throw the ball in less then 1 second, you're arm strength doesn't deter guys from running, it's how quickly you get the ball to second (plus the pitchers time to first). In todays game basestealing has become more about the math than the speed of the guy on first or his ability to get a jump on the pitcher...That and IMHO CS% is not the penulitimate stat in quantifiying a catchers abiltiy to control the running game. Rather how often do teams run on a particular guy...Teams don't run on Yadier Molina, they do run on Varitek who has never been even in his prime quick release guy, and it also doesn't help that the Sox have never been a team that waste pitches (pitchouts) and focus more on getting out the hitter and making quality pitches aposed to the slide step. That said all things being equal Tek at his best would never be in the same class as guy like Molina or one of his contemporaries Irod...both of whom not only have strong arms, both very athletic catchers with quick feet! So comparing Martin who is the more athletic guy with a quicker release to Saltalamacchia who much like Varitek is a big guy and doesn't have the quickect feet which effect thier time to second. check the stats on the number of attemted steal and you'll see teams run on the Sox more than the Yanks...even if you subtract Wake's starts... Who's the better catcher...Martin....Who's the better all around player? Time will tell but given how well Saltilamacchia's playing today with his career in front of him...let's just say I like our guy and it's ok that they like thiers...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Good post; Johnny Bench had great footwork and the arm, FWIW, and in his prime, his CS% was off the charts. As far as belittling CS %, perhaps it is a little overrated, but it's still noteworthy; however your point reminds me of why some outfielders have low assists; it's because runners won't try their arm. Perhaps then, a better stat for a C is SBs allowed, Pitcher and side step/base runner focus philosophy notwithstanding.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Good post; Johnny Bench had great footwork and the arm, FWIW, and in his prime, his CS% was off the charts. As far as belittling CS %, perhaps it is a little overrated, but it's still noteworthy; however your point reminds me of why some outfielders have low assists; it's because runners won't try their arm. Perhaps then, a better stat for a C is SBs allowed, Pitcher and side step/base runner focus philosophy notwithstanding.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    I like that idea.  SB allowed and SB / 9.  Also, CS includes pickoffs, which seems a bit ridiculous.


     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I like that idea.  SB allowed and SB / 9.  Also, CS includes pickoffs, which seems a bit ridiculous.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I see your point, but I partly disagree; and FWIW it actually illuminates a Catcher's skill in the foot work/quick release/arm dep't. Munson was great at this, amongst others.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    No one stat should ever be used to definitively judge any player- offensively or defensively.

    Every stat has a context, as in Sox catchers have to deal with no slide step, poor pitcher's skills at holding runners, lack of left-handers (who genarally allow less SBs)Wake's fluttering knucklers, etc...
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I see your point, but I partly disagree; and FWIW it actually illuminates a Catcher's skill in the foot work/quick release/arm dep't. Munson was great at this, amongst others.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    I meant if a pitcher picks off a runner at first, it counts as a caught stealing for the guy behind the plate.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I meant if a pitcher picks off a runner at first, it counts as a caught stealing for the guy behind the plate.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I got that.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I see your point, but I partly disagree; and FWIW it actually illuminates a Catcher's skill in the foot work/quick release/arm dep't. Munson was great at this, amongst others.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    NHSteven,

    Let's also not forget that a big part of the catchers CS% is when they throw out a guy when his team puts on a hit and run. To me in order of importance when I qualify a catchers ("calling a good game notwithstanding", because many of todays catchers get thier signals from the dugout).

    1) Recieveing the ball "sticking the throws and framing pitches
    2) Abiltiy to block balls in the dirt and keep them in front of him
    3) Knowledge of thier pitchers mechanics and being an onfield "pitching coach"
    4) Controlling the running game, meaning that it's ok if Granderson swipes a bag, but anyone with average speed better due so off the pitcher.
    5) Knowing when to go to the mound to give thier guy a blow and help them through tough patches...
    6) hit at or above the league average for the position...
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    This thread should be ended. There's no debate. Salty is the better player and Martin cost the Yankees millions more.
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    so... everyone agreed? cs%, like rbi, is more a situational stat than it is indicative of a catcher's defensive ability. can the opinion that salty is anything but a middle of the road defensive catcher, like varitek, be tabled for the time being?
    also, if martin is that much better defensively than what is up with martin's 7 errors to salty's 1?
    12 pb + 1e= 13 mistakes (salty)
    3pb + 7e= 10 mistakes (martin)
    is there really that much defensive difference? is there really that much defensive value in martin's year thus far that masks the fact that he is heading for career lows across the board offensively? how long are the yankees going to hang on to that hot start?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]so... everyone agreed? cs%, like rbi, is more a situational stat than it is indicative of a catcher's defensive ability. can the opinion that salty is anything but a middle of the road defensive catcher, like varitek, be tabled for the time being? also, if martin is that much better defensively than what is up with martin's 7 errors to salty's 1? 12 pb + 1e= 13 mistakes (salty) 3pb + 7e= 10 mistakes (martin) is there really that much defensive difference? is there really that much defensive value in martin's year thus far that masks the fact that he is heading for career lows across the board offensively? how long are the yankees going to hang on to that hot start?
    Posted by kbair[/QUOTE]

    I agree - at the end of the day, it's results that matter, and defensively the results have been comparable.  Who cares if Martin looks smoother doing it?

    Meanwhile, the difference in OPS is now +76 points to Salty.


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]This thread should be ended. There's no debate. Salty is the better player and Martin cost the Yankees millions more.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    Right
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]so... everyone agreed? cs%, like rbi, is more a situational stat than it is indicative of a catcher's defensive ability. can the opinion that salty is anything but a middle of the road defensive catcher, like varitek, be tabled for the time being? also, if martin is that much better defensively than what is up with martin's 7 errors to salty's 1? 12 pb + 1e= 13 mistakes (salty) 3pb + 7e= 10 mistakes (martin) is there really that much defensive difference? is there really that much defensive value in martin's year thus far that masks the fact that he is heading for career lows across the board offensively? how long are the yankees going to hang on to that hot start?
    Posted by kbair[/QUOTE]

    Playing rotisserie baseball with catchers is a poor choice; you obviously haven't seen Martin play that much. There are things he does that is off the charts.

    Again: Why was he voted on thye AS Team by his playing peers? I can tell you it wasn't because of his bat.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Playing rotisserie baseball with catchers is a poor choice; you obviously haven't seen Martin play that much. There are things he does that is off the charts. Again: Why was he voted on thye AS Team by his playing peers? I can tell you it wasn't because of his bat.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]
    His hot start with the bat must have figured in the AS vote by players. Now he is sinking fast and would not win such a vote -- certainly not as a superior defensive catcher.  Others in the league are better at that than he.  What is "off the charts"?  Don't say pitch-calling unless you have hard evidence. Don't cite intangibles out of thin air. That's too easy. 
    The Dodgers didn't let him go because of back problems but because of increasing bat problems.  They must not have thought him "off the charts" on defense.  Neither will the Yanks at the end of the season. They like better punch, much better, in that position. 
    He's going in one direction, down, Salty in the other, up.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : His hot start with the bat must have figured in the AS vote by players. Now he is sinking fast and would not win such a vote -- certainly not as a superior defensive catcher.  Others in the league are better at that than he.  What is "off the charts"?  Don't say pitch-calling unless you have hard evidence. Don't cite intangibles out of thin air. That's too easy.  The Dodgers didn't let him go because of back problems but because of increasing bat problems.  They must not have thought him "off the charts" on defense.  Neither will the Yanks at the end of the season. They like better punch, much better, in that position.  He's going in one direction, down, Salty in the other, up.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Have you ever seen him catch? Did you ever see his plays at the plate? How he digs balls out of the dirt? Frames pitches? Calls games? His cannon arm, which led MLB in CS % last yr for those catchers with 72 games or more? Enough intangibles for you? Because it sounds like you could critique Bill Dickey if you wanted to, while propping up a guy who was a 4A player with lousy defensive and questionable offensive skills in April, and who admittedly has improved since. He has a long way to go, as well. And, FWIW, Martin was already hitting in the neighborhood of .220 when his peers voted him in. I'll take him. You can have your guy. Everybody's happy.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate :  Again: Why was he voted on thye AS Team by his playing peers? I can tell you it wasn't because of his bat.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Perhaps we should be comparing Martin to Varitek then?

    I wonder how Yankees fans felt about his peers voting him into the ASG in 2008?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Every catcher in the big leagues has a decent arm, some have guns. Arm stregnth plays a role in defending the running game but is not the most critical skill....You can have a gun, but if you can't catch, tranfer and throw the ball in less then 1 second, you're arm strength doesn't deter guys from running, it's how quickly you get the ball to second (plus the pitchers time to first). In todays game basestealing has become more about the math than the speed of the guy on first or his ability to get a jump on the pitcher...That and IMHO CS% is not the penulitimate stat in quantifiying a catchers abiltiy to control the running game. Rather how often do teams run on a particular guy...Teams don't run on Yadier Molina, they do run on Varitek who has never been even in his prime quick release guy, and it also doesn't help that the Sox have never been a team that waste pitches (pitchouts) and focus more on getting out the hitter and making quality pitches aposed to the slide step. That said all things being equal Tek at his best would never be in the same class as guy like Molina or one of his contemporaries Irod...both of whom not only have strong arms, both very athletic catchers with quick feet! So comparing Martin who is the more athletic guy with a quicker release to Saltalamacchia who much like Varitek is a big guy and doesn't have the quickect feet which effect thier time to second. check the stats on the number of attemted steal and you'll see teams run on the Sox more than the Yanks...even if you subtract Wake's starts... Who's the better catcher...Martin....Who's the better all around player? Time will tell but given how well Saltilamacchia's playing today with his career in front of him...let's just say I like our guy and it's ok that they like thiers...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Bean, I think you mean pitcher's time to home plate (see hi-lighted).
    First base coaches time pitcher's point of commitment with catcher's time to second. The base stealer knows how fast he is, so it's a matter of beating the math - and not getting picked-off.

    Base-stealers run off the pitcher-catcher equation.

     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Perhaps we should be comparing Martin to Varitek then? I wonder how Yankees fans felt about his peers voting him into the ASG in 2008?
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi[/QUOTE]

    Well, then it's a no-brainer:)
     
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    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Well, then it's a no-brainer:)
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I'm with you Harness.   ; - )
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Perhaps we should be comparing Martin to Varitek then? I wonder how Yankees fans felt about his peers voting him into the ASG in 2008?
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi[/QUOTE]

    That's not such a ridiculous comparison, except that Martin is 28, so the "legacy factor" is smaller in his case; and he has a stronger arm than Tek had in '08. Since Tek is tutoring Salty, and given Sox fans wish that Tek could catch a higher % of the games, that actually makes a supporting argument for Martin.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    After Martin's fast start, who here would have bet VTek would have a higher OPS by this yime of the year?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    nhsteven, yup, I saw Martin catch tons of games in LA.  He looks good behind the plate and handles the position adequately.  Lots of catchers dig balls out of the dirt and frame pitches and call good games. Have you seen these catchers?  How do you know that Martin calls good games?  Is he that much better than other catchers that he can hit .220 and keep his job -- especially in NY?
    If you mean by "propping up" that I noted the fact that Salty is moving up and Martin is moving down, then I propped up Salty.  
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mfymfy. Show mfymfy's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Let's try this. The Sox are out to win a championship this year. So are the Yankees. Would the Yankees want Martin behind the plate right now or Salty? Same for the Sox. Would they want Martin behind the plate or Salty? Obviously Theo believes in Salty as a project. No argument there. Martin is not a project and I'd have to believe he's a large part of the success--starters and bullpen--the Yanks are enjoying. Homerism is fine but a little intellectual honesty is good too.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    [QUOTE]nhsteven, yup, I saw Martin catch tons of games in LA.  He looks good behind the plate and handles the position adequately.  Lots of catchers dig balls out of the dirt and frame pitches and call good games. Have you seen these catchers?  How do you know that Martin calls good games?  Is he that much better than other catchers that he can hit .220 and keep his job -- especially in NY? If you mean by "propping up" that I noted the fact that Salty is moving up and Martin is moving down, then I propped up Salty.  
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    This is based on what I've read regarding pitcher & Mgr  feedback and seen. As far as other catchers are concerned with respect to defense, I thought Mauer before the injuries was great, I-Rod when he was younger, and I like Wieters, Ruiz & Y. Molina now. Historically, I would go with Cochrane, Hartnett, J. Gibson, Dickey, Ferrell & Bench, and Fisk was an animal. I guess you have to throw Berra in there too. Ray Schalk is in the HOF despite a 250-ish BA because of his skills behind the plate. Other notable defensive guys with lesser stature were E. Howard (short prime), Freehan & Sundberg.
     

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