Salty/Russell Martin Debate

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bettersoftthanlaw. Show bettersoftthanlaw's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Harnes, the man who just likes to hear himself talk, no matter how few people understand or are even listening to his drivel. His soapbox is also his home.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    And you're supposed to be me?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : Martin is clearly better with defense and "game calling" which is why Theo tried to sign Russel in the off season.  Jason would have been the odd man out and Salty our back up.  I'm sure a few fans will debate this but it would be moot point.  When the season is over you will probably see Martin and Tek with similar stats even though I believe Martin is better than his 220 average.
    Posted by craze4sox


    Maybe Theo liked Martin's offense way better than Salty's. At the time, Salty's offense had been pretty bad, esp vs LHPs.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from NUSoxFan. Show NUSoxFan's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    Salty and Russell are similar players, average backstops, good offensively. The difference was that Russell had reached his potential and had all-star years, Salty had not. That's why sticking with Salty of Russell was gutsy, and risky. But the ends will be two incredibly similar players, with Salty getting the edge in who I'd want because of a younger age.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    Salty and Russell are similar players, average backstops, good offensively. The difference was that Russell had reached his potential and had all-star years, Salty had not. That's why sticking with Salty of Russell was gutsy, and risky. But the ends will be two incredibly similar players, with Salty getting the edge in who I'd want because of a younger age.
    Posted by NUSoxFan


    Disagree
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    It will be interesting to see how Lavarnway will effect the future of the Sox catching position.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I don't agree with Harness on this. (Perhaps you also overlooked his comment about Salty having a loooooong way to go; selective reading.) There's also the handling of pitchers, and the physical defensive skills, BTW; blocking pitches in the dirt; leading the league in CS % last yr; plays at the plate, general glove play etc. He's also a clutch hitter, despite the #s. However, you can diss this "All Star as voted by his peers" all you want.  
    Posted by nhsteven

    I know where you're coming from, but I look at it like this:  if a guy with an ugly batting stance hits .300, he's a .300 hitter.  If a guy with perfect form hits .200, he's a .200 hitter.  So no matter how good Martin looks to you, unless you are watching every Catcher in baseball every day, you cannot draw an objective conclusion.  That's why we have stats, and though defensive stats are flawed, they are usually decent benchmarks, and there is really no stat you can point to to suggest that Martin is even marginally better defensively, at least not this year.  Fangraphs takes everything you mentioned into consideration when factoring 'defensive runs saved' and considers Martin one of the worst in the league.  

    I'm not suggesting Salty is a defensive wizard, but to make up for 80 OPS points, you need to have something that suggests defensive superiority, beyond the naked eye of a fan.  


     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I know where you're coming from, but I look at it like this:  if a guy with an ugly batting stance hits .300, he's a .300 hitter.  If a guy with perfect form hits .200, he's a .200 hitter.  So no matter how good Martin looks to you, unless you are watching every Catcher in baseball every day, you cannot draw an objective conclusion.  That's why we have stats, and though defensive stats are flawed, they are usually decent benchmarks, and there is really no stat you can point to to suggest that Martin is even marginally better defensively, at least not this year.  Fangraphs takes everything you mentioned into consideration when factoring 'defensive runs saved' and considers Martin one of the worst in the league.   I'm not suggesting Salty is a defensive wizard, but to make up for 80 OPS points, you need to have something that suggests defensive superiority, beyond the naked eye of a fan.  
    Posted by slomag


    You mean like being selected to the all star game by his peers? 

    Do you know Martin had a 39% CS % last yr? Regardless, Statistics are what they are: Statistics; they are not all mighty decrees, but indicators, (I believe my opinion on this matter has some weight, since I have an M.S. in Statistics from Stonybrook, and not the cookbook watered down curriculum version either) even worse; the new fangled & artificially processed statistical measures, which are still evolving, especially on defense. In summary, apparrently, just like your prediction about the Yankees doing an el-folderoo, we're not going to agree on this matter. Give it a rest.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : You mean like being selected to the all star game by his peers?  Do you know Martin had a 39% CS % last yr? Regardless, Statistics are what they are: Statistics; they are not all mighty decrees, but indicators, (I believe my opinion on this matter has some weight, since I have an M.S. in Statistics from Stonybrook, and not the cookbook watered down curriculum version either) even worse; the new fangled & artificially processed statistical measures , which are still evolving, especially on defense. In summary, apparrently, just like your prediction about the Yankees doing an el-folderoo, we're not going to agree on this matter. Give it a rest.
    Posted by nhsteven

    I think what you are trying to suggest with your All-Star argument is that players regard Martin as the best defensive Catcher in the league.  That's a distortion - the truth is, despite his free-fall, Martin's offensive numbers were in the top 5 in the league at the time of the vote, and even then I would bet that many players voting were not aware of how drastically they had fallen off.  Think about it - they didn't vote for Wieters.  Are you going to tell me the consensus opinion around the league is that Russell Martin is a better defensive Catcher than Matt Wieters?

    Martin is now in the bottom 5 offensively, and you can bet if the vote were taken today, the outcome would be different.  Also, Ron Washington is one of Martin's peers, and you notice that the one position player who did not get into the All-Star Game on the AL side was Russell Martin, so what does that tell you?

    If you're all done with the Salty/Russell Martin Debate, that's fine.  You can just stop replying on the "Salty/Russell Martin Debate" thread.



     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : I think what you are trying to suggest with your All-Star argument is that players regard Martin as the best defensive Catcher in the league.  That's a distortion - the truth is, despite his free-fall, Martin's offensive numbers were in the top 5 in the league at the time of the vote, and even then I would bet that many players voting were not aware of how drastically they had fallen off.  Think about it - they didn't vote for Wieters.  Are you going to tell me the consensus opinion around the league is that Russell Martin is a better defensive Catcher than Matt Wieters? Martin is now in the bottom 5 offensively, and you can bet if the vote were taken today, the outcome would be different.  Also, Ron Washington is one of Martin's peers, and you notice that the one position player who did not get into the All-Star Game on the AL side was Russell Martin, so what does that tell you? If you're all done with the Salty/Russell Martin Debate, that's fine.  You can just stop replying on the "Salty/Russell Martin Debate" thread.
    Posted by slomag

    No, I'd rather have Wieters; however, Wieters was on the AS team, otherwise, how would you know when the voting took place? Based on your argument, it must have been in April or May (Martin was hitting .242 by June 1st, and .226 by Jul 1st, so I don't know where you got that top 5 inference from) which I doubt, since his selection was announced on July 1st.







     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : No, I'd rather have Wieters; however, Wieters was on the AS team, otherwise, how would you know when the voting took place? Based on your argument, it must have been in April or May (Martin was hitting .242 by June 1st, and .226 by Jul 1st, so I don't know where you got that top 5 inference from) which I doubt, since his selection was announced on July 1st. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Martin http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/yankees/post/_/id/19725/martins-avg-record-low-for-nyy-all-stars
    Posted by nhsteven

    That's true, I don't know the exact sequence of the All-Star voting.  My assumption was that the players vote after the fan vote is tallied, and then the manager makes his selections.  That's why I assumed Wieters was not on the players' ballot.  If anybody knows for sure, though, I'd be interested in the details.

    The top 5 reference was OPS based on the day the final vote was announced - I don't remember the date, but I remember sorting by OPS and I believe it was Avila, Martinez (who is mostly a DH), Santana, Wieters and Martin.


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate:
    In Response to Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate : That's true, I don't know the exact sequence of the All-Star voting.  My assumption was that the players vote after the fan vote is tallied, and then the manager makes his selections.  That's why I assumed Wieters was not on the players' ballot.  If anybody knows for sure, though, I'd be interested in the details. The top 5 reference was OPS based on the day the final vote was announced - I don't remember the date, but I remember sorting by OPS and I believe it was Avila, Martinez (who is mostly a DH), Santana, Wieters and Martin.
    Posted by slomag


    OK. BTW, I tried to find those details, but could not.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: Salty/Russell Martin Debate

    After 212 posts, the conclusion is that both Saltalamachia and Martin are doing better than what was expected of them. Martin started out strong and Salty is coming on fast. Good pickups for both clubs. This goes to show how a thread title is so important.
     
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