Salty's defensive numbers

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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : In case you haven't noticed STILL, Salty's defense is not very good and there is no indication that it is improving! I have seen you in action for over a year now expitch. You are full of it. Self absorbed to the max. You think you are always right and when someone points out that the data doesn't support your position AT ALL...it's "But, But, But" and "I never said that" and "I was the first" ( when you were not )...etc.  Why not just tell the truth dude! As a former pitching coach for Dadeaux I would think that would be credibility enough for you ( if it's true ). When all the data in the world shows your position is flawed you have the GALL to tell ME you don't have time to teach me about the basics of baseball. And yet you keep getting it wrong. Over and over.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    I confess. I never pitched for USC or handled the pitchers. When I walked into his son's office at Rod's trucking firm and proposed that I write a book about his dad, he said, "Are you kidding? We need an author who knows something about baseball and about my dad."
    You think I write fiction about my experiences at USC. OK, I just gave you a slice of fiction.

     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : I suggest you re-read my post...I said It SEEMS we are defending him now...When we started this it was to show how much hes improved this year...Not about charts from 2008-2011...And he HAS improved...Dont put words in my mouth please...
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]
    One of Boom's specialties is putting words in another's mouth or ignoring words that another's mouth actually uttered. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : OH...la pobre Saltalamachia! Que Lastima! He's had only 5 short years of opportunity to prove himself as a mlb catcher. He has to actually compete for a job even. Wow. How he has handled all this emotional distress? Gee, I guess I never realized just how bad it has been for poor little Salty. He much he has had to overcome in those 5 years of chances he has been given.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    Look here, Southpaw, I should have warned you. Now you've excited Boom's wit, but not to worry. It has no bite. It's mostly on the level of sophomoric sarcasm.

     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : So now a guy who is still not on the Sox 25-man playing roster is "one of the most intelligent players in baseball, and by all accounts very dedicated." What are you smoking? Because Bill Maher would love to acquire some of that weed.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I raised an ivy league son. There is no comparison between him and a normal kid in terms of intelligence. I've seen thousands of instances of it. Here is a little factoid which I have always found interesting. There is a bigger difference between most 780-800 scores on a SAT than there is between a 600 and 700 score. It's often times almost exponential at the top. Observe top achievers and ask yourself could I do that? I mean really? The guys at the top are sometimes off the charts. A lot of valedictorians don't get accepted to Harvard or Yale. 1 out of a 1000 high school seniors. Lavarnway is very likely to be extremely intelligent. A top 10% guy even with his athletic boost in getting in. He wasn't highly recruited in HS. He appears to have got in mainly on his academic merit.
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    But what do I know about anything? Expitch is STILL trying to teach me the basics of baseball.
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : We've been "discussing" this for days southpaw. He has had plenty of opportunities to prove himself. Far more than most other players in baseball. Lavarnway has had maybe 10 games so far. Do we think he will be given 5-6 years to prove himself? I doubt it. I don't mean anyone here disrespect except for expitch. He deserves it. The rest of you have reasonable positions even though we disagree in emphasis. There is still time for anyone here to be proven right or wrong but my point is that it could clearly go either way still. Salty could still end up being a platoon catcher forever. And Lavarnway could be a complete washout for all we know but my bet is on LAvarnway going forward. We will see what happens. It could happen very soon.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    If I got respect from a low-life like you, I'd have to worry about what was wrong with me.
    Sucking up to Southpaw won't work. Too late. You've already put words in his mouth and did you drippy sarcasm number on him. True to form, you are. That can be said of you. 

     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    Sometimes money and your place in the world of economics gets you a spot at Harvard and Yale too. It's not all about strictly intelligence. Politics is just as rampant in the Ivy Leagues in terms of acceptance into these colleges as it is the straight SAT score. Of course, you have to still have some brains to survive at these colleges. I applaud you for raising an Ivy League child. I went to a State university. I couldn't afford Stanford or UCLA. 
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : We've been "discussing" this for days southpaw. He has had plenty of opportunities to prove himself. Far more than most other players in baseball. Lavarnway has had maybe 10 games so far. Do we think he will be given 5-6 years to prove himself? I doubt it. I don't mean anyone here disrespect except for expitch. He deserves it. The rest of you have reasonable positions even though we disagree in emphasis. There is still time for anyone here to be proven right or wrong but my point is that it could clearly go either way still. Salty could still end up being a platoon catcher forever. And Lavarnway could be a complete washout for all we know but my bet is on LAvarnway going forward. We will see what happens. It could happen very soon.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    Se, Thats my point Boom...that in the 4 years before he came to the Sox he was given a chance WITHOUT the proper guidence..He was just thrown in there expected to perform, and when he didnt he got benched, traded or whatever...That can do something to a kids confidence...He finally got that guidence he needed in Boston from Tuck and Tek...If he got it when he was 22 when he should have, we would know exactly what he is by now...He didnt get it, basically losing 4 years of his MLB career...I dont know any better than any of you if he will be the starter for a long time, but I look at the whole picture and Im willing to give him that chance now that hes got the coaching hes needed...I see improvement this year..Next year? we'll see...I enjoy discussing baseball with folks here so lets keep this conversation going in a civilized manner from here on out...we can agree to disagree if we have to...Gotta head to work...Catch up with you guys later...
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]But what do I know about anything? Expitch is STILL trying to teach me the basics of baseball.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]
    Not STILL. I've given up. You're hopeless. I had better learners when I coached the JV team in high school for one year.

     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : I am not bashing Salty. I have never said or felt that he should be replaced by Lavarnway. In fact, I've said the opposite. The only thing that I have said is that I don't think that Salty is as good defensively as some people give him credit for, but I also have said that I think he's developing and improving nicely. I also have never said that watching the games and the players is not important. My opinion has not changed regarding the need for defensive stats in addition to seeing what the players do on the field. If one thinks that one can fully evaluate a catcher's defensive ability by what he sees on the field, disregarding the stats, that is his prerogative. I happen to disagree. Why is it that teams employ both scouts and stat geeks? I certainly meant no personal offense to you in my posts. Poor choice of words, I guess, on my part. I apologized twice to you for whatever I said that might have offended you. I apologize again if you were offended. If you feel the need to respond by calling me a liar, presumptious, and arrogant, and by implying that I don't know anything about the pitcher/catcher dynamic or about the assumptions/methodologies that are used to employ the stats that I quote or that I don't know what I'm talking about, that is your prerogative as well. But responses like that bring a Socrates quote to mind....
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi[/QUOTE]
    I found the Socrates quote: "The unexamined statistic can be misleading."

     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : I found the Socrates quote: "The unexamined statistic can be misleading."
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    That holds true in a lot of this discussion...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : I found the Socrates quote: "The unexamined statistic can be misleading."
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    That holds true to a lot of this discussion...
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    what about the OVER-examined statistic that could be misleading----CERA
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]what about the OVER-examined statistic that could be misleading----CERA
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Its misleading because its over examined
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    The only argument left for boom on Salty is that he points to the team's won-loss record with him behind the plate. This is assuming that he's the reason the pitchers aren't pitching well. I'm with ex on this, if you got pitchers telling you that they think Salty is doing a good job behind the plate, then I have to take them at their word. That also tells me the pitchers are missing their spots, lack command, especially a Lester/Beckett (of late)/Doubront and some of the relievers now. 
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    danny,
    Someone on the other thread just asked why do the pitchers give up so many HR's what Salty catches..My response? They have issues locatinf the ball...
    Salty can put the fingers down and give the target, but he doesnt throw the ball...
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : I found the Socrates quote: "The unexamined statistic can be misleading."
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Not the quote I was referring to, but a good one nonetheless.  I wholeheartedly agree with it.

    My posts on those topics that you imply I know nothing about are out there.  If you wish to be schooled on said topics, you can look them up.
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    no, southie, he controls the pitch with mind-melding and the Amazing KreSaltine
    is the reason the Sox are under .500
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]what about the OVER-examined statistic that could be misleading----CERA
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    It's not just CERA.  Every defensive stat/study that I have looked at, for his career and for this year, except for pitch framing, says that Salty is not that good defensively. 

    I can understand not wanting to put too much stock in one stat.  That's never a good idea.  But when virtually all the statistics say the same thing, regardless of the limitations of defensive stats, it becomes a little difficult to disregard.
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    Why doesn't Salty get some credit for hitting 19 home runs at a position not exactly a power source for most MLB teams.
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]Its almost as if Myself, Danny , Moon and Ex are now having to defend Salty...All we started out saying is that he isnt as bad as hes being made out to be and presented valid arguments...Then we all started to REALLY pay attention to things more than we had...It looks like weve all come to the same conclusion with salty...Personally, I like the kid and think he deserves more time, but apparently the "stats" by the "geniuses" say different so theres no way what were seeing with our eyes and hearing with our ears can possibly be true...Hes consistantly improved his game, PERIOD...And YES, IMO, hes a better CATCHER than Lavarnway...I think the team must agree at this point in time or Lav would be here already...
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]

    Yes you have all come to the same conclusion, but you all could also be wrong. And if he is a better catcher than Lavarnway, then it makes no sense for the Sox to keep Lav, because he will never make it to the show if you guys have your way. Better to trade him away for someone who can pitch or play SS. He wouldn't bring much value though since he is worse than Salty.
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    Wow, so much discord!
    When all is said and done, Salty is still the worst defensive catcher in the league!
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]Why doesn't Salty get some credit for hitting 19 home runs at a position not exactly a power source for most MLB teams.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    For me, this discussion hasn't been an issue of Salty's offense. I don't really care for his K rate or his low OBP, but his power has been more than fine. I don't expect much offensively from a catcher, and whatever Salty provides offensively is gravy, IMO. Kudos to him for his 19 home runs.
     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers : Not the quote I was referring to, but a good one nonetheless.  I wholeheartedly agree with it. My posts on those topics that you imply I know nothing about are out there.  If you wish to be schooled on said topics, you can look them up.
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi[/QUOTE]
      But why not cannibalize yourself just a little when the topic is hot on a thread? You know, remind us. Not everyone remembers everything you've said, believe it or not. And it's possible that a poster going by your current contributions and directed to look up your previous contributions might decide it's not worth the time, believe it or not.
    Have you investigated the comparisons you brought up? If so, what were your sources? Are you really familiar with the assumptions and methodologies behind the stats you cite? Love to hear all of that. Who knows, I might be converted.
    C'mon, information please. Remember, not everyone is going to go back to what you've written. If you don't give us at least a taste of that sagacity, you could be charged with "deprivation of posters."  

     
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    Re: Salty's defensive numbers

    In Response to Re: Salty's defensive numbers:
    [QUOTE]Sometimes money and your place in the world of economics gets you a spot at Harvard and Yale too. It's not all about strictly intelligence. Politics is just as rampant in the Ivy Leagues in terms of acceptance into these colleges as it is the straight SAT score. Of course, you have to still have some brains to survive at these colleges. I applaud you for raising an Ivy League child. I went to a State university. I couldn't afford Stanford or UCLA. 
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]
    Danny, academic snobbery is the worst kind. A smart person who works hard can acquire a good education almost anywhere.

     
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