September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Wake had some pretty shoddy "D" play behind him this year. It wasn't just Salty, although he really doesn't catch Wake well at all. Also, I believe Wake had more inherited runs against him than against any other starter. He often gets lower BP depth in his starts.

    You are blaming Wake for some areas that are beyond his control (forgive the pun).
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Timmy T-Ball caused Aceves to start early April in AAA and Oki to be banished to AAA. He caused Miller to be booted from rotation (Miller was good on the road) and Weiland to be jerked around in schedule chaos.

    Timmy T-Ball ceremonial tour is the loser face of the record September collapse. Only a fool like InEpstein would offer Timmy T-Ball a MLB contract. No other team will.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Timmy T-Ball is 45 years old and pitiful. Do you always look for excuses to be the only MLB GM stupid enough to offer Timmy T-Ball a MLB contract. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In fact, you have no concept of what it means to be 45 years old, fat and a 5 plus ERA for nearly 3 seasons.  
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    Harness and moonslav are barking up the wrong tree.  The simple fact is that Wakefield gave up 21 runs in 24 innings pitched in September for an RA (runs average) of 7.88, and they want to blamed most or all of those runs on poor defense and an ineffective bullpen.  For most of the rest of us, runs are runs, especially when the pitcher's knuckler was the proximate cause of all 21 runs.  This year, the knuckler was either very hittable or completely uncatchable.  Rare was the game or even the inning when he would set batters down in order while Saltalamacchia was smoothly catching every pitch.  In September Wakefield gave up 7 unearned runs, which is more unearned runs that any other Boston pitcher had for the entire season.  In his case the ERA is far and away his most misleading statistic.  
    Posted by maxbialystock


    Here's more Max:
    If you are gonna blame Wake for unearned runs, what about:
    Bedard: 10 runs in 12 IP (7 ER).
    Lackey: 25 runs in 23 IP
    Weiland: 13 runs in 14 innings.
    Miller: 13 runs in 10 IP.

    Runs are runs, right?

    Wake gave up 39 runs from April to June. 35 ER.
    He surrendered 71 runs from July to Sept. 53 ER

    Tell me, did Salty suddenly regress that much?
    Or was it the "D" behind Wake?
    Consider: Wake's SO/BB  from April to June: 33/24.
    Wake's SO/BB ratio from July to September: 60/23.

    That tells me the unearned runs go beyond passed balls.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Neither do you.                     

    Yes I do, and Timmy T-Ball has no major league contract FA market for those who do understand it.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    What is neat is that Tim should have a smooth transition from facing current MLB hitters to facing off with ex-players in an old-timers game ..... 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    What is neat is that Tim should have a smooth transition from facing current MLB hitters to facing off with ex-players in an old-timers game ..... 
    Posted by BurritoT


    He'll be facing grandchildren from players he played against as a rookie before that happens.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Timmy T-Ball doesn't toe the rubber, he waddles on the rubber and throws T-ball and any AL team would pitch in money to keep him on as Red Sox geriatrics clown.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hambonawilliams. Show hambonawilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Wakey-Wakey and Tek HAVE to go out NOW, together, and end this tragic soap opera...they both are glue factory candidates...and they both can't svck enough...harness, you and Moon the Tek shill should get married......and the Pink Hat parade continues.......
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Harness, you just don't get it.  Had you stated that Wakefield really wasn't much worse than the other starters in September and then trotted out his ERA which ignores 7 unearned runs and is therefore misleading, I would have been fine. 

    But, no, you have to say he was the Sox BEST starter in September, and that is very hard to swallow.

    As for the lousy bullpen support, part of that was because Francona had to bring in guys early in the game, maybe with the game already out of reach, so it was going to be a suspect "long reliever," almost certainly not Aceves because he was reserved for games that were still winnable. 

    I'm a long-time supporter of Tim Wakefield, including most of this year.  But two things troubled me this year.  One was all those unearned runs from passed balls or wild pitches combined with his overall hittability this year.  The other was his announcement that he should be brought back next year so he can set the wins record.  While I will somewhat agree he is still almost a bargain, I'm just tired of his overall ineffectiveness (9 tries to get win 200???), pot belly (but he still fields his position well), and self-boosterism. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    The telling thing here is ... sadly ... that while Wake was ready and willing, and not always able ...

        Lester, Becket, and Lackey appear to have not been ready, willing OR able in the last month in large part due to their selfish behavior.

        I am totally flabbergasted by what I'm hearing/reading.  It certainly makes "counting on" these guys a questionable thing ..  and I would have counted on Jon and Josh for almost anything ....


       I reserve final judgment as we find out what really happened ... but it doesn't sound good. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ABQDan. Show ABQDan's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Yes, comparing Wake to the rest of the staff ... our rotation collapsed?  Is that the context in which you make an evaluation for future improvement?  No.

    I think Aceves makes Wake redundant, his "fans deserve to see me" remarks and beer drinking ways point out that we're better off without him.

    Harness, you're correct that he was healthy this year, but then, he wasn't in the rotation to start the year.  I wonder if he has ever made 20 starts in a row since 2006?  Is that stat out there?  I do know he has had back issues, etc.

    Given his replaceability and age, I'd toss him as part of the housecleaning.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Dan, Timmy T-Ball had a bulging disc from big gut. His ERA has been over 5 since the last half of 2009. He is 45 years old and a silly PR project team mascot. 2011 fiasco ended in no playoffs because of his cermonial tour wasted roster spot. Had Aceves started year outside of AAA and been made a spot starter over Wastefield during collapse then post season would have made season less a fiasco. 

    Time for Timmy-T Ball ceremonial tour charity roster spot to end!   
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : Here's more Max : If you are gonna blame Wake for unearned runs, what about: Bedard: 10 runs in 12 IP (7 ER). Lackey: 25 runs in 23 IP Weiland: 13 runs in 14 innings. Miller: 13 runs in 10 IP. Runs are runs, right? Wake gave up 39 runs from April to June. 35 ER. He surrendered 71 runs from July to Sept. 53 ER Tell me, did Salty suddenly regress that much? Or was it the "D" behind Wake? Consider: Wake's SO/BB  from April to June: 33/24. Wake's SO/BB ratio from July to September: 60/23. That tells me the unearned runs go beyond passed balls.
    Posted by harness


    harness - What's really funny is your comparison of the Wakefield to Bedard, Lackey, Weiland and Miller.

    Compare Wakefield to other pitchers in the league.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    Harness, you just don't get it.  Had you stated that Wakefield really wasn't much worse than the other starters in September and then trotted out his ERA which ignores 7 unearned runs and is therefore misleading, I would have been fine.  But, no, you have to say he was the Sox BEST starter in September, and that is very hard to swallow.

    It's factual. No starting pitcher had a worse ERA than Wake in Sept. Since ERA is the board-accepted standard, then he was the best. The fact the others were AAA pitchers - or pitching hurt - wasn't his fault. Nor was the fact he was victimized by poor "D" and inherited runs.



    As for the lousy bullpen support, part of that was because Francona had to bring in guys early in the game, maybe with the game already out of reach, so it was going to be a suspect "long reliever," almost certainly not Aceves because he was reserved for games that were still winnable.  I'm a long-time supporter of Tim Wakefield, including most of this year.  But two things troubled me this year.  One was all those unearned runs from passed balls or wild pitches combined with his overall hittability this year.  The other was his announcement that he should be brought back next year so he can set the wins record.  While I will somewhat agree he is still almost a bargain, I'm just tired of his overall ineffectiveness

    Wake began the season as starter insurance. He ended up pitching 150+ innings, 4th best on the staff. 13 of 23 of them he went 6+ deep.
    Only 5 of his 23 starts did he give up 5 or more ER.
    His unearned runs would have been lower if the defense played better behind him.

    (9 tries to get win 200???),


    Between win #199 and win #200, he never gave up more than 4 ER in any game.


    pot belly (but he still fields his position well), and self-boosterism. 
    Posted by maxbialystock



    Are you suggesting Sabathia should go on a diet?
    How about Davids Wells? Or Mickey Lolich?

    As for self-booterism, show me how many RedSox pitchers have taken on all roles,
    still won 200 games, signed continuous team-friendly deals and have given more back to the community.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Yes, comparing Wake to the rest of the staff ... our rotation collapsed?  Is that the context in which you make an evaluation for future improvement? 

    I never mentioned "future improvement" in the OP.
    If you wish to "improve"on a starter no one was better than in Sept., then that means Lester and Josh  have to go too, right?


    No. I think Aceves makes Wake redundant,
     
    Really? Aceves is a long reliever put into game-altering situations. Wake never is when deployed in relief. Wake has won 200 games. Aceves is a failed starter...dating back to his 9 seasons in AAA.

    his "fans deserve to see me" remarks and beer drinking ways point out that we're better off without him. Harness, you're correct that he was healthy this year, but then, he wasn't in the rotation to start the year.  I wonder if he has ever made 20 starts in a row since 2006?  Is that stat out there?  I do know he has had back issues, etc. Given his replaceability and age, I'd toss him as part of the housecleaning.
    Posted by ABQDan

    Wake made 21 straight starts in 2009.
    He made 30 in 2008, and 31 straight starts in 2007.

    If they could have replaced him at equal cost, they would have.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bekuzisedso. Show Bekuzisedso's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Wake's wake 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    harness - What's really funny is your comparison of the Wakefield to Bedard, Lackey, Weiland and Miller. 

    Compare Wakefield to other pitchers in the league.

    Wake was our 6th starter this year (in theory, 7th after we got Bedard)

    Wakefield in 2011
    (Starts) WHIP/ERA
    (23)  1.36  5.12

    Remember Wake pitched about half his games in Fenway and most of his games vs AL clubs who have a DH.

    There are exactly 50 MLB pitchers with over 100 IP and a higher WHIP than Wake... here are a few of them and some others with comparable numbers to Wake (some after adjusting for league and or home park)

    Texas:
    Lewis  (32)  1.21  4.40
    Holland (32) 1.35  3.95

    Detroit:
    Penny    (31)  1.56  5.30
    Porcello  (31) 1.41  4.75
    Scherzer (33) 1.35  4.43
    P. Coke   (14) 1.45  4.47

    Yankees:
    Burnett   (32)  1.43  5.15
    Hughes   (14)  1.49  5.79

    TB:
    W. Davis (29)  1.38  4.45

    Others:
    Billingsley (32)  1.45  4.21
    Vargas     (32)  1.31  4.25
    Beavan   (15)  1.25  4.27
    Niese       (26)  1.41  4.40
    RLopez   (16)  1.48  4.42
    D, Gee    (27)  1.38  4.43
    Narveson (28)  1.39  4.45
    BMyers    (33)  1.31  4.46
    L.Herndz (29)  1.40  4.47
    Capuano (31)  1.35  4.55
    Hochevar (31)  1.28  4.68
    Westbrook(33)  1.53  4.66 
    Nolasco   (33)   1.40  4.67
    Jimenez  (32)  1.40  4.68
    Britton     (28)  1.45  4.61 
    Morrow   (30)   1.29  4.72
    B.Cecil   (20)    1.33  4.73
    Pelfrey   (33)    1.47  4.74
    Chatwood(25)  1.67  4.75
    Hammel   (27)  1.43  4.76
    Correia    (26)  1.39  4.79
    Dempster (34)  1.45  4.80
    Zambrano(24)  1.44  4.82 
    Francis    (31)  1.44  4.82
    T Wood    (18)  1.49  4.84
    Volstad    (29)  1.42  4.89
    A Simon   (16)  1.45  4.90
    Peavy      (18)   1.26  4.92
    ZDuke      (9)    1.57  4.93
    RWells     (23)  1.39  4.99
    D.Willis    (13)  1.52  5.00
    Blanton    (8)   1.48  5.01
    D.Lowe   (34)  1.51  5.05
    Arrieta    (22)  1.46  5.05
    Arroyo     (32)  1.37  5.07
    R.Harden (15)  1.43  5.12
    Pineiro    (24)  1.51  5.13
    Hensley   (9)   1.36  5.19
    H Sosa    (10)  1.44  5.23
    Carmona (32)  1.40  5.25
    JA Happ  (28)  1.54  5.35
    J Lyles    (15)  1.41  5.36
    Furbush   (12)  1.49  5.48
    Tillman   (13)  1.65  5.52
    AMiller    (12)  1.82  5.54
    JJ Reyes  (25)  1.59  5.57
    DDuffy      (20)  1.62  5.64
    Bergesen (12)  1.50  5.70
    Volquez   (20)  1.57  5.71
    Barry Zito         1.40  5.87
    Stewart    (11)  1.60  5.88
    Galarraga (8)   1.62  5.91
    A Cook     (17)  1.69  6.03
    Drabek     (14)  1.81   6.06
    Coleman  (17)  1.75   6.40
    Lackey     (28)  1.62  6.41
    DDavis      (9)   1.86  6.50
    Slowey     (8)   1.40   6.67
    KDavies    (13)  1.79  6.75
    A. White   (10)  1.69  7.01
    E Rogers  (13)  1.89  7.05 
    O'Sullivan (10) 1.78  7.25
    Enright     (7)    1.73  7.41
    Matusz     (12)  2.11  10.69 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    What a great day when Timmy T-Ball goes. No more meaningless stat snipets pretending Timmy T-Ball has a FA market MLB contract value. No more 3.75 million for a ceremonial beer gut waddling out and tipping his hat after a grand slam.

    Loser culture ends when Timmy T-Ball good ole boy charity contracts end.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Ya know, Moon, I purposely left that statement for you to address:
    I figured you'd show analogies to #5/6/7pitchers, but that list blew me away.
    Great work!!!

    When will folks ever put Wake into perspective?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    There are exactly 50 MLB pitchers with over 100 IP and a higher WHIP than Wake...

    I doubt any of the 50 who are FA, if their numbers are equally bad for the last 2 years, will be getting anything more than minor league contract offers. How many of them are over 45 years old? Zero. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    There are exactly 50 MLB pitchers with over 100 IP and a higher WHIP than Wake. .. I doubt any of the 50 who are FA, if their numbers are equally bad for the last 2 years, will be getting anything more than minor league contract offers. How many of them are over 45 years old? Zero. 
    Posted by hankwilliams

    You might be surprised at what they will be offered.
    You might be surprised at how much some of these guys made in 2011 comapred to Wake.
    You shouldn't be surprised at how many pitchers will have similar numbers in 2012. Remember, 2011 was considered a "pitcher's years"!

    Many on the list had more starts than Wake this year. 
    Many were 2,3,4,or 5 starters, not #6.

    If you guys really think there are easy to obtain #6 starters out there for less than $2M, why didn't these teams above grab them to replace the bums they had? If there are really so many young prospects being held back by all of the guys above, where are they? 

    How many of the above guys were DFA'd? 

    I'll bet the majority will be back in MLB next year for 10+ starts.

    As for the age thing, again, Wake's best 50 start stretch occured from 2008 to mid 2009. He was over 40 at the time. 

    Wake is a serviceable 5/6 starter in MLB. He's even better than several team's 3 or 4 starter. He's not expensive.

    Look at the AL teams who made the WS since 2003: most had 1+ starters with an ERA over 5.00.  (A top 5 starter based on most games started onthe team.) You guys act like Wake was the only guy in MLB over 5.00. Besides, look deeper than ERA, look at WHIP, the fact that our releievers let up more of Wake's inherited runners than any other Sox starter, the fact that this year's catcher let up about 20 more PBs and WPs with Wake than last year's, and the fact that a good percent of his runs were scored as a result of bunt or IF hits, fielding blunders (not ruled errors), and sac flies. Wake pitched much better than his numbers indicated. There's agood probablity he will do better next year (with the numbers).

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I'll bet the majority will be back in MLB next year for 10+ starts.

    As for the age thing, again, Wake's best 50 start stretch occured from 2008 to mid 2009. He was over 40 at the time.

    Wake is a serviceable 5/6 starter in MLB. He's even better than several team's 3 or 4 starter. He's not expensive.

    Majority are not 45 years old and have last 2 years numbers that are pitiful.

    You are lobbying for Wakefield. You also missed boat on InEpstein being on hot seat, claiming he wasn't going anywhere right up until the moment he was gone.

    Lobbying for Wakefield is pitiful. You have no credibility. No team is going to offer Wakefield more than a minor league contract.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    harness - What's really funny is your comparison of the Wakefield to Bedard, Lackey, Weiland and Miller.  Compare Wakefield to other pitchers in the league. Wake was our 6th starter this year (in theory, 7th after we got Bedard) Wakefield in 2011 (Starts) WHIP/ERA (23)  1.36  5.12 Remember Wake pitched about half his games in Fenway and most of his games vs AL clubs who have a DH. There are exactly 50 MLB pitchers with over 100 IP and a higher WHIP than Wake. .. here are a few of them and some others with comparable numbers to Wake (some after adjusting for league and or home park) Texas: Lewis  (32)  1.21  4.40 Holland (32) 1.35  3.95 Detroit: Penny    (31)  1.56  5.30 Porcello  (31) 1.41  4.75 Scherzer (33) 1.35  4.43 P. Coke   (14) 1.45  4.47 Yankees: Burnett   (32)  1.43  5.15 Hughes   (14)  1.49  5.79 TB: W. Davis (29)  1.38  4.45 Others: Billingsley (32)  1.45  4.21 Vargas     (32)  1.31  4.25 Beavan   (15)  1.25  4.27 Niese       (26)  1.41  4.40 RLopez   (16)  1.48  4.42 D, Gee    (27)  1.38  4.43 Narveson (28)  1.39  4.45 BMyers    (33)  1.31  4.46 L.Herndz (29)  1.40  4.47 Capuano (31)  1.35  4.55 Hochevar (31)  1.28  4.68 Westbrook(33)  1.53  4.66  Nolasco   (33)   1.40  4.67 Jimenez  (32)  1.40  4.68 Britton     (28)  1.45  4.61  Morrow   (30)   1.29  4.72 B.Cecil   (20)    1.33  4.73 Pelfrey   (33)    1.47  4.74 Chatwood(25)  1.67  4.75 Hammel   (27)  1.43  4.76 Correia    (26)  1.39  4.79 Dempster (34)  1.45  4.80 Zambrano(24)  1.44  4.82  Francis    (31)  1.44  4.82 T Wood    (18)  1.49  4.84 Volstad    (29)  1.42  4.89 A Simon   (16)  1.45  4.90 Peavy      (18)   1.26  4.92 ZDuke      (9)    1.57  4.93 RWells     (23)  1.39  4.99 D.Willis    (13)  1.52  5.00 Blanton    (8)   1.48  5.01 D.Lowe   (34)  1.51  5.05 Arrieta    (22)  1.46  5.05 Arroyo     (32)  1.37  5.07 R.Harden (15)  1.43  5.12 Pineiro    (24)  1.51  5.13 Hensley   (9)   1.36  5.19 H Sosa    (10)  1.44  5.23 Carmona (32)  1.40  5.25 JA Happ  (28)  1.54  5.35 J Lyles    (15)  1.41  5.36 Furbush   (12)  1.49  5.48 Tillman   (13)  1.65  5.52 AMiller    (12)  1.82  5.54 JJ Reyes  (25)  1.59  5.57 DDuffy      (20)  1.62  5.64 Bergesen (12)  1.50  5.70 Volquez   (20)  1.57  5.71 Barry Zito         1.40  5.87 Stewart    (11)  1.60  5.88 Galarraga (8)   1.62  5.91 A Cook     (17)  1.69  6.03 Drabek     (14)  1.81   6.06 Coleman  (17)  1.75   6.40 Lackey     (28)  1.62  6.41 DDavis      (9)   1.86  6.50 Slowey     (8)   1.40   6.67 KDavies    (13)  1.79  6.75 A. White   (10)  1.69  7.01 E Rogers  (13)  1.89  7.05  O'Sullivan (10) 1.78  7.25 Enright     (7)    1.73  7.41 Matusz     (12)  2.11  10.69 
    Posted by moonslav59


    moon - If you were GM of the Red Sox would you go out and get any of those relievers at ERA's of 5.12 or over on that list? Take away the guys that were injured for portions (Volquez, Slowey) that have potential.

    Would you give any of them anything more than a minor league contract?

    Now throw in the fact that it's someone who's 46.

    Now throw in someone who's hard to catch.

    What do you have? 

    Someone who's going to be released and who won't get any kind of deal from any other team.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share