September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Well, with an ERA of 5.12 for the season, you could at least tout Wakefield for being consistent - consistently ineffective that is. Wastefield is a joke. All MLB teams hope the Red Sox keep him so they can continue to pad stats by playing T-Ball on Timmy.
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    No, the joke is on the one who does nothing but slur the name of a 200-game winner. A #6 who is pressed into season-long starting duty and logs 150+ frames with a 5+ ERA pitching in Boston vs. A. L. east competition is well worth his cost.
     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Wake was terrible, read the posts!  Some of you are continuing the Wake parade and ignoring the facts, go back and READ WHAT IS HERE.  He WAS NOT THE BEST PITCHER, HIS IDIOTIC PASSED BALLS AND WILD PITCHES NEGATED MANY RUNS THAT WERE STILL HIS FAULT. Enough of the Wake stuff.  Give a young arm that same job, then there is upside.  The only upside to Wake is his huge gut when he floats on his back in the pool. 
    Posted by soxmeister[/QUOTE]

    How much upside did Douby or Miller or Bowden or Weiland show?
    How many more young arms do you wish to see compromise the team's chances?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ABQDan. Show ABQDan's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Again, it all boils down to roster slots.

    Any "6th starter" who can't pull long relief - regularly - is not worth the 25-man spot.  It seems that Wake is not really someone who can come in to the 4th with two men on and keep things sane.  Ergo, he is NOT a 6th+ starter; he's not going to Pawtucket for weeks at a time, and you need more out of that MLB roster spot.

    So ... fifth starter?  Maybe.  Who knows?

    The good Wake:
    - Makes lots of starts / reliable
    - Frustrates opposing hitters
    - Keeps you close vs. opposing backline starters
    - Good citizen
    - Inexpensive

    The bad Wake:
    - Injuries / misses time / messes with roster stability
    - Delights opposing hitters by lobbing up Allen Ripley-esque meatballs
    - Puts strain on the 'pen by forcing a 3rd inning hook
    - "Likes beer"
    - Is overpriced in light of the above

    This is what Spring Training is for - to see which you think you'll get.  If it looks like the former, I might put him on the staff out of camp (assuming no better alternatives).

    I feel that he and Tek are both at a point in their career and salary scale where you could dump them IMMEDIATELY (during season) when and if you get a better replacement for their roster spot.  If you accept that the Sox must rebuild to an extent, placeholders like that are actually valuable for the flexibility they give you.
     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Posted by ABQDan[/QUOTE]

    The bad Wake: - Injuries / misses time /

    Wake was healthy all year...the only starter out of SP who can make that claim.

    messes with roster stability -

    No, he pitches when asked to. Roster stability depends on quality of depth, and the team had little of that behind him in the rotation.
    In addition, he was victimized by many inherited runs and some shoddy "D".


    Delights opposing hitters by lobbing up Allen Ripley-esque meatballs -

    That's true, and it's because Salty has a tough time catching his more volatile, lower-breaking knuckler. So, he's forced to throw the higher one, which is susceptible to the longball.
    In addition, his control (SO/BB ratio) is much better over the last two years.
    The more a pitcher is around the plate, the more gopher balls he'll give up.
    Blyleven gave up more, and he's now in the HOF.


    Puts strain on the 'pen by forcing a 3rd inning hook

    Show me all his "3rd inning hooks". He pitched a min. of 6 frames in 13 of his 23 starts last year.
    Perception isn't always reality.


    - "Likes beer"

    He has plenty of company.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Wastefield is a loser face. I'll be mildly surprised if ownership allows him to waddle back out for ceremonial part 2 debacle.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Tim "Wastefield" - the one most of the posters on this board don't want back. September ERA's: Wake: 5.25 Bedard 5.25 (2.000 WHIP) Lester: 5.40 Beckett: 5.48 Weiland: 7.36 Lackey:  9.13
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    If Wake has limited starts I have no problem with him as our #6.  Tim has done a great job over the years and his ERA is acceptable for that role.  The problem is Wake had to pitch much more this season because of a beat up, or poor staff.  When this happens it just makes our staff look even worse "not Wakes fault" but it did show his age down the stretch.

     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : Anyone with over a 5.00 ERA for the season shouldnt be in a major league rotation. Wakefield is turning into Brett Farve, just sticking around for the numbers even though he has lost most of his ability. And I would guess that MOST fans dont care about him getting 7 more wins, since it would likelt take 25 starts to do it.
    Posted by gbman87603[/QUOTE]
    Check Becketts 2010 and 2006 stats. Are you saying he shouldn't be in the majors?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : Thank you. Moon and Co. seem to ignore his unearned runs, when the majority of them are caused by passed balls, and then more hits, versus errors made in the field.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    No, I did not ignore this. I answered you the last time you brought it up.

    I listed all the runs scored on Wake by passed balls, but also by bunt hits, IF hits,  sac flies, misplayed balls for hits and inherited runners allowed to score (some from 1B with 2 outs). You ignored my response.

    Here it is again....

    Wake's 23 starts:

     

                      IP  H  ER BB (comments)

    1) vs Sea  5.2  3  1  1  

    (left with 2 outs and man on 1st: Jenks allowed his runner to score plus 1 more and Wake gets no decision: Sox win anyways)

     

    2) vs Min  4.1  9  6  4 (started 5 days earlier/pitched relief 2 days before)

    (scored 2 runs on BB, IF hit, GB single and Balk, later 2 inherited Wake runs are allowed by Aceves.)

     

    3) vs Cubs  6  7  4  1

     (shut out through 6.2, then two dbls = 1 run)

     

    4) @ Det   7  5  2  2

     (1 run scores on seeing eye GB single, SB and another seeing eye GB single.)

     

    5) vs CWS  6  7  4  1

     (shut out through 4.2, then BB, bloop single, SB, Groundout to SS, Gb double down 3B line that could have been fielded by Youk-2 runs)

     

    6) @ NYY   5.1  5  5  3

     (Shutout through 4 IP, then 3 runs on BB, PB, 1B, 2B, GB -man to 3rd-Sac Fly, then in 6th 2 outs and BB, and Aceves comes in and allows his run to score.)

     

    7) @ TB     7   4  1  5

     (Shut out for 4.1 IP then HR, in 6th BB, PB, BB, GB runners advance and Passed Ball allows run to score.)

     

    8) vs Mil   8   3 2  1

     (2-runo HR in 2nd + solo HR in 7th: no bad luck)

     

    9) @ Pitt   6   7  5  4

     (shut out for 4.1 IP, and 1B, SB, BB, HR- 2 runs, 2B, GB single for 1 runs, 4th 1 run scores on cheap single to 3B -Youk muffs it, and a 2B to CF that Ellsbury misjudged-could have been caught, then a GB to 2B.)

     

    10) @ Hou  5.1  11  5  0

     (1st inning: 1B, SB, GB runner to 3B, Sac Fly,  2nd: 2 runs scored on 2B, 1B, bunt 1B to 3B, and 2B, in the 5th: GB single, WP, 2B)

     

    11) vs Tor    7    9  3  1

     (3rd inning: swinging bunt single, 1B, GB runners advance, Sac Fly, long 1B)

     

    12) @ Bal    4.2  9  3  2

     (1st: 2 outs then weak 1B to 3B, hard 1B, then 3B for 2 runs. 5th: 2 Ks, HR, HR, 1B, bloop 1B-could have been caught, BB, 2B clears bases)

     

    13) vs Sea  6.1  10  7  1

     (1st: HBP & HR, 5th: K, BB, seeing eye GB 1B, 2B scores 1, Wake enters the 7th ahead 11-3. ***He could have been relieved***, but he stays in and allows: 4 runs on 3 singles and HR)

     

    14) @ CWS  7.0  3  3  2

     (Shutout through 5.1 innings, then bunt single to 3B, Bunt runner to 2B, WP, Sac Fly. 7th inning: BB and HR for 2 runs).

     

    15) vs Cleve  6.2  5  3  2

     (Shutout through 3IP, then HR, ground ball single, Ground ball 2B, ...2 runs, then in the 7th: 2B, Ground out, WP, K, 2B for 1 run)

     

    16) @ MN  7 IP  8H  3 ER  0BB

     (2nd inning: 2B, single, 2 groundouts-runner to 3B, PB run scores- 2 ERs. HR in 4th, 6th inning: hard single and deep 2B for 1 run). Wake leaves with a run run lead-Aceves lets up a run and Wake does not get the win.)

     

    17)  @ Sea  8  9   4  2

      (Shutout for 2 IP, then BB on fullcount (squeezed), SB, Salty error, IF hit to SS (run), single, FC & error by Lowrie SS, then Sac Fly (run), BB, single (run) . 5th inning: IF single to SS, single, single (run). 7th: Solo HR.)

     

    18) @KC  5.1  9  4  0

    (Shutout for 2 2/3, then GB single up the middle and 2b down the RF line, then to the 6th  a (1ER in 5 1/3, a K then IF hit to SS and 2 deep DBLs, Wake is pulled and Albers let’s up Wake’s run and several more and the Sox go from leading 4-1 to losing 9-4 in that one inning!

     

    19) vs Oak  4 IP  8H  4 ER  2 BB

    (2nd inning: 2B then GB hit between 1B-2B, WP, GO moves runner to 3rd and line drive single scores runner from 3rd. In the 4th, Wake gets rocked for 6 runs, but 4 of them are after a 2 out K/PB allows the inning to continue.)

     

    20) After a 4 IP relief game vs TX (3H 0 ER) Wake starts again

          @ Tor  5  3  4  3

    (1st Inn: BB, WP, BB, PB then Sac fly. 3rd Inn: HBP, WP, 2B, BB, SB (3rd), then SB of home!

     

    21) vs Tor  6  6  5  2

    (2nd: DBL, then IF weak hit to SS/3B & 3-run HR. 3rd Inn: GB base hit, PB, HR. Wake gets the win.

     

    22) vs TB  5  6  2  1

    (2nd: K/PB runner to 1B, PB, 2B, GB single, SB, HBP, K (should be last out) single scores a run. 5th Inn: GB single (up middle), SB, WP, PB scores runner. Later, GB single up middle, BB then weak GB error to 3B allows run.

     

    23) @ NYY 4  5  3  5

    (1st: Bunt hit 4 feet in front of home, SB, bunt single to 3B, SB and E allows run, PB (runner to 3B) WP run scores! 5th Inn: hard single goes to 2B E7, Gb single to RF runs scores.

     

    Totals:

    5 ERs on bullpen allowing inherited runners to score.

    4 ERs allowed after Tito left him in (too long) in an 11-3 game (7th inn)-3 singles and HR.

    31 out of 81 total ERs allowed as a starter scored on

      IF hits,  bloop hits, or misjudged fly balls that fell for “hits”

      Muffed balls counted as hits

      Runners advancing on GBs then Sac flies

    40/81 ERs allowed were a bit shaky or “cheap”. I know all pitcher have some bad luck, but I doubt any pitcher has this percent of cheap runs allowed this year.

    It’s pretty easy to figure Wake’s ER as a starter could be closer to 3.00 or 3.50 instead of about over 5.00.

    VMart had 4 PBs last year in Boston. Are you so sure all the PBs are 100% Wake's fault?


     


     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : If Wake has limited starts I have no problem with him as our #6.  Tim has done a great job over the years and his ERA is acceptable for that role.  The problem is Wake had to pitch much more this season because of a beat up, or poor staff.  When this happens it just makes our staff look even worse "not Wakes fault" but it did show his age down the stretch.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you here. And if he's brought back and again has to pitch 150 frames, that unto itself is a warning flag.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    How deep in the games did this "innings eater" really go?  Seems to me "tubby" couldn't last past the 5th inning most starts, he looks old and tired ... and sweats like a pig in a sauna.  

    Stop spreading lies. You brought this up once before and were schooled, but here you are again, repeating the same lie again.

    Innings eaters:

    Beckett      6.4 IP/GS
    Lester        6.2
    Wakefield  6.0
    Buchholtz  5.9
    J Lackey    5.7
    Aceves       5.3
    Dice-K        5.2
    A. Miller    4.9
    Bedard      4.8
    Weiland    4.3

    Sidenote: Wild Pitches do not "negate" earned runs. 

    PBs do and rightfully should.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Definition of an Innings Eater: 6-7 solid innings without fail, and regardless of a "W".

    Wake no longer can eat innings.
     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    That's your definition of an innings eater.
    He averages 6 per start, according to Moon's numbers.
    What the hell do you want from a "6th" starter?
     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Here is a something to research, how many wild pitches or passed balls took away runs scored from Wake's ERA, when in reality it was still his terrible pitching that caused those runs? How deep in the games did this "innings eater" really go?  Seems to me "tubby" couldn't last past the 5th inning most starts, he looks old and tired ... and sweats like a pig in a sauna.  Wake helped this team many times in the past.   He is now a terrible option.   Let the kids get experience, and let Wake walk.
    Posted by soxmeister[/QUOTE]

    Wild pitches do not result in unearned runs.  One would have thought someone with an "expert" opinion like yourself would know that.  Then again, maybe you're just some clueless yahoo anonymously ranting on the internet?

    Which "kid" was a better option in 2011?  Which kid(s) do you foresee as a better option in 2012?  Among the 30 MLB teams, how many do you think had a better nbr 6 starter than Wakes, his poor finish notwithstanding?  Are you willing to name names?  I bet you won't, and will just continue your ignorant yahoo ranting.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]That's your definition of an innings eater. He averages 6 per start, according to Moon's numbers. What the hell do you want from a "6th" starter?
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    One that at least can win a game here or there, not go without a win 10 straight starts.  If you only need a guy to lose you may as well bring up any ol' pitcher from Double AA.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    So its okay for Wakefield to be a spot starter, fill in when needed? Then we will have to hear how he has not pitched enough and is rusty all through 2012 each time he gets his azz handed to him.
     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : One that at least can win a game here or there, not go without a win 10 straight starts.  If you only need a guy to lose you may as well bring up any ol' pitcher from Double AA.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Do you know what the RedSox record is when Wake starts?
    Not getting a win or a decision plagues many starters.
    He lost 3 games in that stretch. And he never allowed more than 4 ER in any of those games...until he won #200.

    Look it up yourself.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Wow with Wake back we will be in great shape just like this past year.  The guy has had a wonderful ride.  I wish him well in his retirement or whatever he decides to do.  To anyone with eyes forget the stats we need to move on.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    saying Wake was our best starter in September is like saying Moe was the smartest of the three stooges....

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I think we should clone Wake and have him hold the 2,3,4,5,6, and 7th starter postions on the staff... Lester can be the #1 and we will just release the others.
     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]I think we should clone Wake and have him hold the 2,3,4,5,6, and 7th starter postions on the staff... Lester can be the #1 and we will just release the others.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Wake has held all those roles throughout his career.
    Why do I get the sense UR not wanting Wake back has to do with out wager.
    His cost is a small fraction of team payroll. 
    The team won the majority of his starts.

    What is UR logic in opting for more uncertainty? 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : One that at least can win a game here or there, not go without a win 10 straight starts.  If you only need a guy to lose you may as well bring up any ol' pitcher from Double AA.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    The team went 12-11 in Wake's starts.
    Wake should never had had to start 21 games this year. Earlier in the year, I had said he should only start about 15.
    BTW: The Sox were 11-5 in his first 16 starts.

    The Sox never lost 10 straight with Wake, although in his last 7 starts, we went 1-6. His ERs allowed in those 7 starts: 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 2, 3. For a 6th starter thats horrible, huh?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]saying Wake was our best starter in September is like saying Moe was the smartest of the three stooges....
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    He was!

    Good one though.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Kind of easy to see that Francona wasn't to blame with a staff like this.  They would have had trouble winning in Williamsport.
     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : The team went 12-11 in Wake's starts. Wake should never had had to start 21 games this year. Earlier in the year, I had said he should only start about 15. BTW: The Sox were 11-5 in his first 16 starts. The Sox never lost 10 straight with Wake, although in his last 7 starts, we went 1-6. His ERs allowed in those 7 starts: 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 2, 3.For a 6th starter thats horrible, huh?
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
    And between the 199th to 200th win, Wake gave up 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4 - and then 5 in his 200th. His Ip numbers: 7, 6.6, 7, 8, 5.3, 4, 5.
    He also threw 4 shutout relief innings. 4.79 ERA during the span he supposedly upset the staff with the record. No other starting pitcher had an ERA under 5 in Sept.
     
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