September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

     A 5.25 ERA in september. Are we supposed to be impressed with that? All of the starting pitchers stunk in september.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Harness & Moon,

    You two are taking over for Softy in the, "ridiculously inane & perfunctory arguments in support of a flawed argument," department!  Even those of us who have LOVED & SUPPORTED Wake for the past decade, including the first half of this year, realize that the Red Sox no longer have the luxury of "sticking with a guy" for mostly sentimental reasons.

    WE (the guys who still love Wake) realize that if STARTING PITCHING is one of the key questions in the Great Collapse of 2012?????  Wake is simply NO LONGER a part of the answer! 

    LIKE SOFTY you both persist in this RIDICULOUS relative merits BLIND defense of Wake, but prefacing your defense on completely inane comparisons.  The only merit to such comparisons exist if one is to accept the comparison in the first place.  Softy does the same thing with his never ending bashing of Ells!  He is SO BLINDLY wed to his hatred of Ells, that he simply can't see that his argument is not only specious, but patently ABSURD!  In this way, the two of you simply appear to be hopelessly CLUELESS & blind when it comes to the question of whether Wake is still good for the Red Sox!  For every meaningless stat you crank out, you further marginalize your other RS opinions! 

    YOU SET THE PERIMETERS for your argument, which allows you to continue to vomit a never ending stream of STATS to back up this argument!  STRAW
     MAN arguments gentlemen!  You keep setting them up & knocking them down!  Frankly, it's beneath both of you!

    Whatever your motivations guys, RS Nation is simply done listening to you on this!  It's well past a tired argument!  To most sane individuals it seems borderline obsessive & tortured!  It's time to give up the ghost!  Let it go!!!  With every stat you dredge up, it becomes more & more clear that you two are missing the forest for the seaweed!!!  OK :)  now I'm mixing metaphors!  Tortured metaphors???  How about missing the Ocean for the Seaweed????

    In any case!  IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON!!!!!  DROP IT!  

    AT LEAST REALIZE THAT NOBODY IS IN THE MOOD TO HEAR IT RIGHT NOW!!! 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ABQDan. Show ABQDan's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Harness, I appreciate your research. 

    Here's why I do not value the 2012 Tim Wakefield:

    - I expect that I will never see the 2009 and earlier Wake again.  Ever.  You may disagree.  OK.  I will take the last 24 months when it comes to evaluating 45 year old pro athletes, not the last five seasons.

    - I think that the RS are going to need serious reconfiguration, and that Wake's past role (swingman with no options) is not one the Sox need these days.  When they had rotation and bullpen depth, it was a fit.  Now they do not; the organizational needs have changed.

    Add to that the need to change tone - and his tone-deaf remarks - and it's a no-brainer.  He won't be back, and I doubt he could pitch anywhere else except maybe Houston or Seattle.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Harness, I appreciate your research. 

    No problem. Glad to do it.

    Here's why I do not value the 2012 Tim Wakefield: - I expect that I will never see the 2009 and earlier Wake again.  Ever.  You may disagree.  OK. 

    I don't disagree, Dan. In fact, I said as much a few months back.


    I will take the last 24 months when it comes to evaluating 45 year old pro athletes, not the last five seasons. - I think that the RS are going to need serious reconfiguration, and that Wake's past role (swingman with no options) is not one the Sox need these days. 

    "Swingman"= starter insurance. The need for that is perrinial.

    When they had rotation and bullpen depth, it was a fit.  Now they do not; the organizational needs have changed. Add to that the need to change tone - and his tone-deaf remarks - and it's a no-brainer.  He won't be back, and I doubt he could pitch anywhere else except maybe Houston or Seattle.
    Posted by ABQDan

    The fact depth is missing from the rotation is all the more reason to have it. Wake is no longer seen as a "#3" or "#4"guy. He is lower rotational depth in case the team loses an arm. Otherwise, he eats innings out of the pen, saving arms.
    The need is there. The very fact that no starter pitched better than he did in Sept. proves it.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : [QUOTE]Harness, I appreciate your research.  No problem. Glad to do it. Here's why I do not value the 2012 Tim Wakefield: - I expect that I will never see the 2009 and earlier Wake again.  Ever.  You may disagree.  OK.  I don't disagree, Dan. In fact, I said as much a few months back. I will take the last 24 months when it comes to evaluating 45 year old pro athletes, not the last five seasons. - I think that the RS are going to need serious reconfiguration, and that Wake's past role (swingman with no options) is not one the Sox need these days.  "Swingman"= starter insurance. The need for that is perrinial. When they had rotation and bullpen depth , it was a fit.  Now they do not ; the organizational needs have changed. Add to that the need to change tone - and his tone-deaf remarks - and it's a no-brainer.  He won't be back, and I doubt he could pitch anywhere else except maybe Houston or Seattle. Posted by ABQDan The fact depth is missing from the rotation is all the more reason to have it. Wake is no longer seen as a "#3" or "#4"guy. He is lower rotational depth in case the team loses an arm. Otherwise, he eats innings out of the pen, saving arms. The need is there. The very fact that no starter pitched better than he did in Sept. proves it.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    harness - Please stop with the "no starter pitched better than he did in Sept. proves it".  I keep reading that Wakefield's ERA as a starter was 5.25 in September, but he gave up 14 Earned runs in 24 Innngs pitched total. His first outing of the month WAS NOT a start, but was a 4 inning relief appearance against Texas when the Red Sox were down 10-0. 

    As a starter, he gave up 14 ER in 20 IP as a starter. This equates to an ERA of 6.30 as a starter in September. Add on some unearned runs that only Wake gives up due to the knuckleball and he was very ineffective.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Will this interminably stupid conversation ever end???

    Harness,  YOU are getting worse than Softy!  This is simply madness!

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : harness - Please stop with the "no starter pitched better than he did in Sept. proves it".  I keep reading that Wakefield's ERA as a starter was 5.25 in September, but he gave up 14 Earned runs in 24 Innngs pitched total. His first outing of the month WAS NOT a start, but was a 4 inning relief appearance against Texas when the Red Sox were down 10-0.  As a starter, he gave up 14 ER in 20 IP as a starter. This equates to an ERA of 6.30 as a starter in September. Add on some unearned runs that only Wake gives up due to the knuckleball and he was very ineffective.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    So, should we just take his 4 scoreless innings in relief off the record books?
    I said no starter pitched better than Wake in Sept. That is the truth.
    Ineffectiveness plagued all the starters, and most of the relievers. The point addressed the multiples who don't want Wake back, as if the collapse was
    largely due to him. It wasn't.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher? : So, should we just take his 4 scoreless innings in relief off the record books? I said no starter pitched better than Wake in Sept. That is the truth. Ineffectiveness plagued all the starters, and most of the relievers. The point addressed the multiples who don't want Wake back, as if the collapse was largely due to him. It wasn't.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    NO HARNESS!  There are literally millions of RS Fans who love Wake, just as I do, who don't want Wake back!  Not because we are biased against him, but because WE are realistic & know the starting pitching needs to improve dramatically.  A spot in the starting pitching simply can no longer be wasted on Wake.  I was with you the first half of the season, but those days are long gone.  Wake let himself go to pot physically & it hurt the team.  Was he slightly less aweful than the other starting pitchers?  I'll grant you that.  BUT!  That is not a good argument to keep Wake as one of the 5 starters for next year.  HIS lack of committment to staying in shape as a PROFESSIONAL starting pitcher for one of the most elite teams in all of the MLB took himself out of the equation. 

    Your arguments are beginning to sound like the pitiful pleadings of a love sick teenage girl, who is dating the stoner who just dropped out of school, & is desperately trying to convince her parents why she "loves him so much, & they just don't understand."   When will the "I hate you!  I hate you!  I hate you!" & a slam of the door, come into these desperate rants of yours???   :)

    Come on Harness!  You have got to get a grip!

    I love you man!  BUT your timing is awful!  LET IT GO!  MOVE ON! mm GET A FREAKING GRIP!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I am actually starting to get embarrassed for you!  STOP!!!!
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    No one in their right mind wants the 45 year old loser back. Harness was claiming Epstein was going nowhere until hours ago. Unlikey new management will offer a FA major league contract to a player who no other team will offer more than a minor league contract.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Didn't you know harness knows more about baseball and the Red Sox than anyone else on the planet.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    No, and AGon wasn't in San Diego last spring and the O's and Indians were not for real. Harness is an expert on being attracted to Varitek.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Didn't you know harness knows more about baseball and the Red Sox than anyone else on the planet.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Compared to you, this may have some truth to it.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]No one in their right mind wants the 45 year old loser back. Harness was claiming Epstein was going nowhere until hours ago. Unlikey new management will offer a FA major league contract to a player who no other team will offer more than a minor league contract.
    Posted by hankwilliams[/QUOTE]

    Epstein is taking the fast train out, and I'm betting the decision will be short-sighted. As are your takes.

    You know little to nothing about knuckle-ball pitchers or catcher's affect on pitchers or reverse pivot swings. Will Hall be selling insurance this year? Is Cam set up for retirement?
    How'd that Oki signing work out?

    Don't worry, you stooge will vouch for UR repetitive drivel...he'll just love it.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Epstein is taking the fast train out

    Epstein was denied an extension and is forced to take the fast train out.

    Anyone claiming that Timmy T-Ball was the best Red Sox starter in September knows nothing about pitching.

    A catcher's affect on pitching was not magic fingers Varitek in September. Without the claim of CERA as a valid metric, Varitek would serve zero purpose. Of course, Varitek becomes a begging no FA market bum again this year.

    Will Varitek and Wakefield be chasing women on a 24 hour summer clock in 2012. Perhaps they will have more success than begging the Red Sox for another contract.

    Oki was fine on his contract and was put in internment. Wastefield cost 3.75 million and was pitiful but a good ole beer drinker in the clubhouse.

    You post the most frequently and are out to free lunch 100% of the time. Epstein is gone with no Red Sox extension, despite your silly claims he was going nowhere.

    You are mental midget, and I doubt the new GM will be stupid enough to repeat career year mistake on what amounts to a terrible swing. See Crawbust! 142M for those career averages are an Inepstein joke! 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Epstein is taking the fast train out

    Epstein was denied an extension and is forced to take the fast train out.

    Anyone claiming that Timmy T-Ball was the best Red Sox starter in September knows nothing about pitching.

    A catcher's affect on pitching was not magic fingers Varitek in September. Without the claim of CERA as a valid metric, Varitek would serve zero purpose. Of course, Varitek becomes a begging no FA market bum again this year.

    Will Varitek and Wakefield be chasing women on a 24 hour summer clock in 2012. Perhaps they will have more success than begging the Red Sox for another contract.

    Oki was fine on his contract and was put in internment. Wastefield cost 3.75 million and was pitiful but a good ole beer drinker in the clubhouse.

    You post the most frequently and are out to free lunch 100% of the time. Epstein is gone with no Red Sox extension, despite your silly claims he was going nowhere.

    You are mental midget, and I doubt the new GM will be stupid enough to repeat career year mistake on what amounts to a terrible swing. See Crawbust! 142M for those career averages are an Inepstein joke! 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Epstein is taking the fast train out Epstein was denied an extension and is forced to take the fast train out. Anyone claiming that Timmy T-Ball was the best Red Sox starter in September knows nothing about pitching.

    No RedSox starter out pitched Wake in Sept. Fact. Live with it.
    Your Wake bashing is nothing short of dementia.


    A catcher's affect on pitching was not magic fingers Varitek in September. Without the claim of CERA as a valid metric, Varitek would serve zero purpose. Of course, Varitek becomes a begging no FA market bum again this year. Will Varitek and Wakefield be chasing women on a 24 hour summer clock in 2012. Perhaps they will have more success than begging the Red Sox for another contract.

    Which goes to show how valid it is. He would not have lasted this long without his influence on pitchers.


    Oki was fine on his contract and was put in internment.

    Dream on. Oki signing was a joke. It was detrimental for all involved, which is what I said once the mistake was made.

    Wastefield cost 3.75 million and was pitiful but a good ole beer drinker in the clubhouse.

    Yeah. The team should have gone with UR choices. Another month of Weiland and there never would have been an historic collapse...the team would have been out of it in mid-Sept.



    You post the most frequently and are out to free lunch 100% of the time.

    You post even more frequently, oh great one in denial. Difference is, you keep getting erased like cheap chalk.


    Epstein is gone with no Red Sox extension, despite your silly claims he was going nowhere. You are mental midget, and I doubt the new GM will be stupid enough to repeat career year mistake on what amounts to a terrible swing. See Crawbust! 142M for those career averages are an Inepstein joke! 
    Posted by hankwilliams

    Who's next once you get banned again? Hmmmmmmmm, how about
    "Halls" of monte-coast?


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I won't even count what might have happened if we did everything softy wanted, such as starting Doubront while he was on the DL (softy was told he was on the DL, yet kept saying he should start) or Miller in April (while he had about as many BBs as IP in AAA that month), let's just look at the final score on our starters:

    (Starter numbers only)
                ERA    WHIP  GS   IP        H    ER  BB  K
    Wake  5.31  1.398  23  137.1  148  81  44  83 (6.0 IP/GS)

    Miller  6.41  1.800  12    58.1   70   36   35  38
    Weil'd 8.72  1.846   5     21.2   28   21   12  11
    Acev   5.14  1.571   4     21.0   20   12   13  13
    Total   6.21  1.780  21    100   118  69   60  62 (4.8 IP/GS)

    Softy still thinks he was right.

    Out of the more or less healthy starters after May 22nd when Wake joined the rotation, here are the 2011 year numbers:

    ERA     WHIP  Opp OPS  SB/CS (%)
    Beck    Beck    Beck        Bed    (0/2) small sample
    Lest     Lest     Lest         Lest    (14/12)  LHP
    Bed      Wake   Acev       Wake  (12/9)
    Acev    Bed      Bed         Miller   (3/1)
    Wake   Acev    Wake      Lack     (33/3)
    Miller   Lack     Lack        Beck    (31/4)
    Lack    Miller    Mill          Acev    (3/0) small sample
    Weil    Weil      Weil

    Overall numbers in Sept (starter and relief) over 10 IP:
    ERA                  WHIP
    Acev  1.80    Acev 1.120
    Wake 5.25    Beck 1.348
    Bed    5.25    Wake 1.417
    Lest   5.40    Weild  1.500
    Beck  5.48    Lest   1.611
    Weil   7.36    Bed    2.000
    Lack   9.13    Lack   2.028
    Miller 11.0    Miller  2.500


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Softone feels if Miller/Douby/Weiland had more time, they would have improved...to the point of replacing Wake.

    I say the more we saw of them, the more they were exposed at the M.L. level. His knowledge of pitching is a joke.

    Cellar-dwellers have longer leashes. The Sox don't have time to experiment.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Softone feels if Miller/Douby/Weiland had more time, they would have improved...to the point of replacing Wake. I say the more we saw of them, the more they were exposed at the M.L. level. His knowledge of pitching is a joke. Cellar-dwellers have longer leashes. The Sox don't have time to experiment.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    He felt free to bash Wake on even smaller samples than Weiland had, so I don't buy the moving goalpost routine. Never did.

    He blamed Weiland's early numbers on "the brawl", but boy oh boy, Weiland did come through nicely for softy, huh?

    He wanted Miller all along. Miller got worse and worse.

    He even wanted "Wally" over Wake. Silly clown.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I can't comment on Wally, Moon. Like Weiland, he does look kinda green.
    But I'll bet he knows more about pitching than Softone.










    Sickens me to see this type of activity on our beloved board.

    Wait...more coming in from the teletype. It seems BILL806 and his dad
    SSShhhhhhh


    His dad really was a ventriloquist, so everything he ever posted is suspect. I'm not even sure is politics are right!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    But Remy wouldnt be his catcher, so that comfort zone would be lost. 

    He'd need somekind of voodoo magic finger reverse pivot union slug waiver.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]But Remy wouldnt be his catcher, so that comfort zone would be lost.  He'd need some kind of voodoo magic finger reverse pivot union slug waiver.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Well, if the clown catches Wally, the circus will be complete...with Hall as the pitching coach.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I guess I just don't see how people look at these numbers and determine the weakest link is Wake...

    (Starter numbers only)
                ERA    WHIP  GS   IP        H    ER  BB  K
    Wake  5.31  1.398  23  137.1  148  81  44  83 (6.0 IP/GS)

    Miller  6.41  1.800  12    58.1   70   36   35  38
    Weil    8.72  1.846   5     21.2   28   21   12  11
    Aceves5.14  1.571   4     21.0   20   12   13  13
    Total   6.21  1.780  21    100   118  69   60  62 (4.8 IP/GS)

    Softy still thinks he was right.

    Out of the more or less healthy starters after May 22nd when Wake joined the rotation, here are the 2011 year numbers:

    ERA     WHIP  Opp OPS  SB/CS 
    Beck    Beck    Beck        Bed    (0/2) /Weild (0/1) small samples
    Lest     Lest     Lest         Lest    (14/12)  LHP
    Bed      Wake   Aceves   Wake  (12/9)
    Acev    Bed      Bed         Miller   (3/1)
    Wake   Ace      Wake      Lack     (33/3) (Compare Lackey & Beckett to Wake here)
    Miller   Lack     Lack        Beck    (31/4)
    Lack    Miller    Mill          Ace     (3/0) small sample
    Weil    Weil      Weil

    Overall numbers in Sept (starter and relief) over 10 IP:
    ERA                  WHIP
    Ace   1.80    Ace  1.120
    Wake 5.25    Beck 1.348
    Bed    5.25    Wake 1.417
    Lest   5.40    Weil   1.500
    Beck  5.48    Lest   1.611
    Weil   7.36    Bed    2.000
    Lack   9.13    Lack   2.028
    Miller 11.0    Miller  2.500

    Yes, Lackey has gotten a lot of criticism as well, but really not as much as Wake. Talk of moving Aceves and now Bard to the starter role is not totally insane, but is certainly very risky (see Joba) and will just create another huge gap or two that can not be easily filled.

    I am fine with letting Wake walk. I really am, but not until I see who we have 1 through 7. I seriously doubt we will have 7 solid capable starters next April. I think the idea of using Wake April to July and Dice-K August to September (and beyond, I hope) make sense. With so many gaps to fill, and seemingly having a somewhat restricted payroll budget that is weighted down by a couple greatly overpaid non-producers, I just don't see being able to fill all the gaps with quality proven healthy vets. We will have to chose to go "light" somewhere:

    RF: Cheap RH'd platoon guy with one of either Reddick or Kalish.
    DH/3B: (No Papi) Youk at DH and Aviles/Lowrie/Middlebrooks at 3B.
    3B: (No Youk: traded for prospects or another piece) Aviles/Lowrie/Middlebrooks
    DH/C: (No Papi) Lavarnway at DH and part-time catcher (only saves V'Tek's $$)
    SS: Aviles/Iggy/Lowrie
    SP 4: Buehrle (not really cheap), Guthrie (at what cost?), Lackey (no added cost) 
    SP 5:(No Bedard/Lackey?) Wa ng/Webb/Wake types
    SP 6/7: Wake, Miller ($3M is more than Wake will get), Doubront, Weiland
       (SP 4,5,6,7: maybe Aceves or Bard)
    RP: (No Papelbon) Bard as closer then 2-3 capable but cheap set-up guys (maybe even 4-5 gambles in hopes that 2 work out)

    If we go "light" somewhere else other than starting pitching, which is what I advocate, then we don't need Wake back and I'd be happier than any of you Wake bashers. I have always wanted build up our starting and relieving staff from the top or middle not the bottom. Our offense can take a hit and still survive. Our staff needs to improve. In reality, big name offenseive guys sell tickets. I seriously doubt we will have 6-7 solid starters, hence my opinion that Wake remains a good option for us next season at $1-2M. Yeah, we can maybe get a couple guys like Bedard (who cost $1M last year) and maybe they'd work out better. Yeah, Wake is old and could decline even more than he did from the 2007-mid2009  period to 2011, but I still think he's a good bargain at $$1.5M for 15-18 starts.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    What I believe many folks don't get is how difficult it is to attain pitchers who can excel in Boston. Forget the pressure, which is like a black cloud. Pitching in Fenway is tough. It takes time to learn how not to be compromised by the hitter-friendly dimensions. Then there's pitching against A. L. East line-ups 72 games.

    In other words, if your goal is to try and build the rotation from the top, unless UR talking CC or Verlander or Felix, you will end up in the middle once the numbers are accurately adjusted. 2010 Lackey is a great example.

    And if the team decides not to re-sign Tek/Wake, and they are not well replaced (a likelihood), then you will see why the board has been fixated on supposed "lower depth". Depth is depth. And weak links can only be overcome by strong ones.

    I had great hopes for a staff of:
    Lester
    Beckett
    Buch
    Lackey
    Dice
    with Wake in reserve.

    IMO, VMART compromised most of them in 2010.
    Young did similar in 2011, along with the injuries.
    Now? Lackey may be damaged goods, in more ways than one.
    Dice is history.
    Buch's back issues may be a constant over his career. His pitching motion is conducive to back stress.
    Beckett may be losing his appetite for pitching in Boston. He lost Tito, the press, many of the fans, and he might lost Tek as well.

    I do think Lester will eventually be the stud, if he reverts back to using 4 pitches and maintains velocity.

    In short, the window of opportunity has been squandered. And given the cost of pitching and how difficult it is to sustain productivity in Fenway, in the A. L.
    East, the window may be closing faster than we think.
     

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