September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    And if I'm right, given the team may have maxed out revenue income, don't be surprised to hear talk of this co-op selling the team if we see a third straight year of a Bostonless PO season.

    Imagine what the board will look like then!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I missed this post. Thanks for the bump...

    What I believe many folks don't get is how difficult it is to attain pitchers who can excel in Boston. Forget the pressure, which is like a black cloud. Pitching in Fenway is tough. It takes time to learn how not to be compromised by the hitter-friendly dimensions. Then there's pitching against A. L. East line-ups 72 games.

    Not to mention the media and other pitfalls.

    In other words, if your goal is to try and build the rotation from the top, unless UR talking CC or Verlander or Felix, you will end up in the middle once the numbers are accurately adjusted. 2010 Lackey is a great example.

    I was for the Lackey signing. It didn't work out, but the idea was not bad. Yes, I'd prefer building from the top, but finding a solid #3 gusy is better than seeking a bunch of #5 guys in hopes one turns out fine. That rarely works.

    And if the team decides not to re-sign Tek/Wake, and they are not well replaced (a likelihood), then you will see why the board has been fixated on supposed "lower depth". Depth is depth. And weak links can only be overcome by strong ones.

    It's almost a certainty there will be posters here next July deadline ranting about our needs for another starter. 

    I had great hopes for a staff of:
    Lester
    Beckett
    Buch
    Lackey
    Dice
    with Wake in reserve.

    IMO, VMART compromised most of them in 2010.
    Young did similar in 2011, along with the injuries.
    Now? Lackey may be damaged goods, in more ways than one.
    Dice is history.
    Buch's back issues may be a constant over his career. His pitching motion is conducive to back stress.
    Beckett may be losing his appetite for pitching in Boston. He lost Tito, the press, many of the fans, and he might lost Tek as well.

    I do think Lester will eventually be the stud, if he reverts back to using 4 pitches and maintains velocity.

    I know. Things turned around quickly, didn't they?

    In short, the window of opportunity has been squandered. And given the cost of pitching and how difficult it is to sustain productivity in Fenway, in the A. L. 
    East, the window may be closing faster than we think.

    You are right, harness. The window is closing fast. There's still a lot of potential to revive that May to August 2011 team, add some key parts, and hope for good health. There's another part of me that thinks we may be better off looking to 2013 and beyond, but I keep beating that part down soundly.



     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I was curious as to UR reply. I know how hopeful you can be, Moon, but I also see the realist in you. I started a thread last year about the run the team was on and how it compared to their others. It actually tied the 1939-51 run in winning pct. as best ever. But history is a great indicator, and history tells me this run may be ending.

    Pitching is the foundation, and some poor decisions (catcher/coach/etc.) may have compromised a 200 million dollar staff to the point of limited return.
    I still have hope that the core will produce given the proper circumstances.
    A few fortunate signings could completely turn the tide, but it's critical that prudent decisions be made, as there's very little room for error at this point.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    FWIW, I checked a few facts on Wakefield.  His 22 unearned runs this year were the most in his career except 1996, when he had 30. 

    In September he had 7 unearned runs, more than any other Sox pitcher had for the season.

    Of those 7, only 2 came from errors.  The other 5 were from passed balls, etc.  And one of those errors was Salty dropping a throw to home when Jeter stole 2B and Gardner went home, where I think there was a collision.  The other was Aviles, throwing error. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    There were also bunt hits that some blamed on Wake's lack of movement, many IF hits, misplayed balls ruled as hits, and even some WPs that could have been stopped. I realize the unearned run argument does carry some weight, but the fact that some catchers limit them way more than Salty did, to me, means we can't put all the blame on Wake.

    Wake let up a lot of HRs, but most of his other runs allowed (earned or otherwise) were of the cheap nature. Weakly hit balls, seeing eye grounders, and inherited runners allowed to score more than made up for the unearned run disparity. To me, a pitcher pitches well if the opps hit the ball weakly or swing and miss. The breaks went against Wake this year, and that is why I hold outa hope for a better 2012, and think the $1-2M gamble is worth it.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Moonslav, I think you have a selective memory on what happened in September, which is what this thread is all about. 

    As for next year, I'm for finally letting Wake go, if only because I think his chase for the wins record has gotten very old. 

    But I do agree that despite back to back lousy years he could still be a bargain and even useful.  His best outing in September was four shutout innings in relief.  Maybe that's where he can do some some good, especially if Aceves becomes a starter. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    I know what happened in Sept. Wake stunk almost as much as everyone else.  Almost.

    I do think he can be a solid middle relief guy if used correctly. Aceves doesn't need to be a starter for that to happen.

    I have my doubts if Salty is our 100+ game catcher next year and catches Wake's starts again, but I still think we will be low on cash when it comes around to filling our pitching depth, and so that is why I think Wake could be a good option. I'd rather have 12 better pitchers, but it's not realistic.
     
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    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]Moonslav, I think you have a selective memory on what happened in September, which is what this thread is all about.  As for next year, I'm for finally letting Wake go, if only because I think his chase for the wins record has gotten very old.  But I do agree that despite back to back lousy years he could still be a bargain and even useful.  His best outing in September was four shutout innings in relief.  Maybe that's where he can do some some good, especially if Aceves becomes a starter. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]

    And I can stake the same claim about you.

    In Sept., Wake had the 3rd lowest OPP OPS/SLG against of any month.
    Opponents only hit .245 against Wake in Sept.
    His BABIP was .268.

    This doesn't jive with UR unearned runs position.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Aceves as a starter? Just what we need another 5 innings pitcher... and then there would be no Aceves there to pitch the 6 and 7 innings. Great idea.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Soon, it will be official that the Red Sox will not be offering a MLB FA contract to Timmy T-Ball.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    You'll be banned 3 times by then.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    How many times was AS banned.

    Not to banned means you are part of the propaganda.

    Timmy T-ball stinks. Now, report that to your employers.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    No, not being a habitual offender means not being an habitual offender.

    It's that simple.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Not to banned means you are part of the propaganda. 

    Yeah, not spewing racism, hatred, and vile is propaganda. 

    Rrrrrrrr -  eye-----T !

    Why don't you join the Wall St, protesters and get arrested.  Obama might just pardon you if you renounce your "Mr. Hanky" love affair.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Wall St. protesters are Obama drones. As are you two NYT shills.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Softlaw's 1000 faces: A laughing stock reduced to the rubble of replicated Wake/Tek/Theo bashing.
    With each new identity, he loses more of himself.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    One can bet he'll find 3 or more new scapegoats. He already hates about a third of the 2011 team.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Moon, were you surprised at Wake's .245 OPP BA in Sept? Or his .268 BABIP that month? (Beckett's: .267/.322   Lester's: .282/.356) He really was their best pitcher in the SR in Sept. by most every key indicator.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Not surprised at all, really. Other than the HRs this year, the opps did not hit Wake hard. They scored many runs on IF hits, bunts, PBs, WPs, FCs, Sac flies, inherited ruinners allowed to score, and hits that should have been fielded. I documented game by game "cheap runs". I know all pitchers have many "what ifs" all year long, but the fact is Wake did not allow many hard hits or BBs.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxmeister. Show soxmeister's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    "In baseball, a quality start is a statistic for a starting pitcher defined as a game in which the pitcher completes at least six innings and permits no more than three earned runs."

    Wakefield's September:


    Sep 25 @ NYY L 6-2     4.0      3 
    Sep 18 vs TB L 8-5       5.0      2
    Sep 13 vs TOR W 18-6   6.0     5
    Sep 7 @ TOR L 11-10     5.0     4
    Sep 2 vs TEX L 10-0      4.0      0

    Notice he had NO QUALITY STARTS in September, MOON.  You are a fool for calling me a liar.  

    ZERO QUALITY STARTS.   HE AVERAGED A WHOPPIN 4.8 INNINGS A START IN SEPTEMBER!   HE IS MY HERO!!!  Start the duckboats, let's get the parade rolling!!!   Yay Wakefield!!!   4.8 innings a game, what a STUD!  

    But no, I don't think he is worth much anymore, regardless of your man crush. Maybe Wake will send you a gallon of his flop sweat so you can roll around in it and live the dream.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]"In baseball, a quality start is a statistic for a starting pitcher defined as a game in which the pitcher completes at least six innings and permits no more than three earned runs." Wakefield's September: Sep 25 @ NYY L 6-2     4.0      3  Sep 18 vs TB L 8-5       5.0      2 Sep 13 vs TOR W 18-6   6.0     5 Sep 7 @ TOR L 11-10     5.0     4 Sep 2 vs TEX L 10-0      4.0      0 Notice he had NO QUALITY STARTS in September, MOON.  You are a fool for calling me a liar.   ZERO QUALITY STARTS.    HE AVERAGED A WHOPPIN 4.8 INNINGS A START IN SEPTEMBER!    HE IS MY HERO!!!   Start the duckboats, let's get the parade rolling!!!   Yay Wakefield!!!   4.8 innings a game, what a STUD!    But no, I don't think he is worth much anymore, regardless of your man crush. Maybe Wake will send you a gallon of his flop sweat so you can roll around in it and live the dream.
    Posted by soxmeister[/QUOTE]

    I was calling softy a liar. Sorry for the confusion.

    I never said Wake had QSs in Sept. I never said Wake pitched well in Sept. I never said that because he was better than everyone else in Sept, that means we shouldn't or needn't replace him. I am saying that until we improve our staff, I'm not for writing off Wake as a cheap 6/7th starter-long relief guy, until I see our replacements.

    "Man crush"?  I don't even like Wake, but I recognize that he was equal to or better than about 50 MLb pitchers last year who pitched a lot for their teams. As a 6/7th starter, that is not a reason we lost.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    moon... I ask because I don't know but will Jenks be ready for 2012? Is it possible he could be a positive factor in the pen?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxmeister. Show soxmeister's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Wake needs to get in shape, he is waddling around now ... that is not an insult, that is an observation.   If he comes to camp looking fit then I would say keep him on as a cheap emergency starter.  The problem is he is not the best guy coming off the bench as a reliever.  And the bigger problem is that the other Sox pitchers keep getting hurt, making him an important starter.   But everyone has to admit, he could lose a few pounds and improve his chances of lasting longer at the end of the season.   
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    Geez, harness, old friend....pretty powerful data. 

    Almost gotta hold my nose to look at those stats.

    I am one of the few who liked - and still likes - Wakes as an innings-eater and a guy who can give you a chance to win or get back into the game. 

    Age?  Hogwash.  Knuckle-ballers do tend to last a long time.  Ask Hoyt Wilhelm.

    I would say, if he can be kept for cheap - nice incentives-laden contract with low guarantee - why not? 

    Besides, coming down the stretch into what the late Eddie Andelman on WBZ used to call "El Foldo," Wakes could have caught the same mental virus that everyone else did - minus the liquid refreshment and Popeye's.  He could have just lost focus.  Mental sniffles and all that.

    I say this because his performance was sub-par by his own standards, but I feel that he can acquit himself yet again, if such acquittal is needed, in 2012. 

    Always have I thought that a motivated, focused Wakefield is not the worst pitcher you could have had on the mound.   Nothing has changed my mind about it.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?

    In Response to Re: September swoon: Guess who was our BEST starting pitcher?:
    [QUOTE]moon... I ask because I don't know but will Jenks be ready for 2012? Is it possible he could be a positive factor in the pen?
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    There were others I liked better than Jenks last winter (Crain, Downs, and Putz if he'd agree to set up), but I thought Jenks would help. I thought $6M was about $2-3M too much, but I expected something positive. He's not a bad pitcher, but I don't know much about his injury.

    I had an idea to trade him to the Cubs with Theo for a prospect and we save $6M on the payroll.

     

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