Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    Napoli is better than an occasional starter.  There are 30 teams and he's about the 10th best statistically.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    Last year was a total aberration as most of the players played over their heads.   Nava. Gomes. Salty. Napoli are either good subs or occasional starters.

    No, not really. Gomes did what he pretty much always does (if anything, it was a dropoff from his 2012 with the A's). Likewise for Napoli. Nothing aberrational about either of their seasons. A look at their career history would have told you this.

    Salty had a career year and Nava probably played way above his head, but other than that, everyone in the lineup performed as they could have been reasonably expected to.

     

    Bucholz peavy doubront are average pitchers at best.

    Buchholz was absent for the second half. Peavy had a 4.04 ERA for the Sox, Doubront a 4.32 ERA - looks to me like they pitched like "average pitchers," more or less. Aside from Buch's first half, where was the "playing above their heads"?

     

    People just spouting off stuff like this is what perpetuates this myth of everyone on the team having hugely out-of-place success, or everything magically falling into place, in 2013. No one ever talks about losing two closers plus Miller for the season, the Middlebrooks fiasco, the mid-summer "Lester is a fifth starter at best" proclamations, etc.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to RigatoniT's comment:
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    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
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    Napoli is better than an occasional starter.  There are 30 teams and he's about the 10th best statistically.

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    and an excellent trade chip

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    LOL we are beating each other's brains in on this one

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    Times sure have changed when Red Sox fans are hypercritical of one of their championships.  Never thought I'd see it...seems weird to me. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    Downer-Dan got what he wanted, people discussing him and his opinion. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to stan17's comment:
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    Downer-Odan got what he wanted, people discussing him and his opinion. 

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    I'm glad he got moved behind the Globe's paywall...removes any temptation to read his tripe.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from fishers5. Show fishers5's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Last year was a total aberration as most of the players played over their heads.   Nava. Gomes. Salty. Napoli are either good subs or occasional starters.

    No, not really. Gomes did what he pretty much always does (if anything, it was a dropoff from his 2012 with the A's). Likewise for Napoli. Nothing aberrational about either of their seasons. A look at their career history would have told you this.

    Salty had a career year and Nava probably played way above his head, but other than that, everyone in the lineup performed as they could have been reasonably expected to.

     

    Bucholz peavy doubront are average pitchers at best.

    Buchholz was absent for the second half. Peavy had a 4.04 ERA for the Sox, Doubront a 4.32 ERA - looks to me like they pitched like "average pitchers," more or less. Aside from Buch's first half, where was the "playing above their heads"?

     

    People just spouting off stuff like this is what perpetuates this myth of everyone on the team having hugely out-of-place success, or everything magically falling into place, in 2013. No one ever talks about losing two closers plus Miller for the season, the Middlebrooks fiasco, the mid-summer "Lester is a fifth starter at best" proclamations, etc.

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    Sorry but you missed my point..  

    The players mentioned were great in games last year but expecting 2 years in a row was a little much.    Just look at the late inning comebacks last year. It was unusual and great but.... If the same players were just as productive or even more so , the team would not be in last place.

     

    Always Right.....at least in my mind

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
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    In response to Bill-806's comment:
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    Thats because last year was a PERFECT over achievement  & this year is where we should be with the players we have......  From day one, too many players for the same positions and not enough playing time !!

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    well, you parrot very nicely, but I would love to hear you define 'perfect over achievement' in specific terms. They had a great run of injury-free baseball (maybe the single most important factor in any succesful season) and many guys played to their potential.  But, overachievement?  Please, explain who overachieved.

     And too many players for the same positions?  Huh?  OK, the same platoon glut in left as last year, granted.  but, where else?  If anything they got themselves in trouble because they didn't have enough positional coverage.  They needed a serviceable third baseman behind Middlebrooks and didnt have one, so the whole Bogaerts to third and (SUBSEQUENT) signing of Drew.  

     

    [/QUOTE]  Last year they were able to stay close into August, then as DAD would say...... "SON, keep it close into AUGUST and then anything is possible down the STRETCH" !!


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    I don't know whether it is cynicism but the Red Sox fans expected more of this team this year and I am one of them. I felt they went to sleep at the Winter Meetings and we're patting themselves on the back way too much at the end of last year. Last year makes up for frustrating losses I lived with in 1967, 1975, 1978, 1986, and 2003. More needed to be done in the off season than they did and the product shows on the field this year with the struggling of the rookie players and the veterans as well as the injuries they have suffered which are part of the game. I was also mad about the "lowball" offer to Jon Lester by the FO.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to AL34's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't know whether it is cynicism but the Red Sox fans expected more of this team this year and I am one of them. I felt they went to sleep at the Winter Meetings and we're patting themselves on the back way too much at the end of last year. Last year makes up for frustrating losses I lived with in 1967, 1975, 1978, 1986, and 2003. More needed to be done in the off season than they did and the product shows on the field this year with the struggling of the rookie players and the veterans as well as the injuries they have suffered which are part of the game. I was also mad about the "lowball" offer to Jon Lester by the FO.

    [/QUOTE]BINGO  DAT   !!!     The LESTER situation is an interesting one as the SOX are right to stay away from long term $$$$ on a PITCHER over 30......  Lets see what happens tonight (TAMPA BAY) and to the trade deadline !!!


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    People just spouting off stuff like this is what perpetuates this myth of everyone on the team having hugely out-of-place success, or everything magically falling into place, in 2013. No one ever talks about losing two closers plus Miller for the season, the Middlebrooks fiasco, the mid-summer "Lester is a fifth starter at best" proclamations, etc.

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    Well said.  The Sox had more go right than wrong last year, but to say that everyone overachieved or that everything went right is absurd.  

    Their record was actually below their Pythagorean W-L record of 100 wins.  Using that as a starting point, it was not unreasonable at all to think that this year's team could win 90-93 games.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
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    People just spouting off stuff like this is what perpetuates this myth of everyone on the team having hugely out-of-place success, or everything magically falling into place, in 2013. No one ever talks about losing two closers plus Miller for the season, the Middlebrooks fiasco, the mid-summer "Lester is a fifth starter at best" proclamations, etc.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well said.  The Sox had more go right than wrong last year, but to say that everyone overachieved or that everything went right is absurd.  

    Their record was actually below their Pythagorean W-L record of 100 wins.  Using that as a starting point, it was not unreasonable at all to think that this year's team could win 90-93 games.

     

    [/QUOTE] look, up in the sky, it's a bird!, it's a plane!, it's Super Stat Girl!! ...Morning Kimmi :-)


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to jete02fan's comment:
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    look, up in the sky, it's a bird!, it's a plane!, it's Super Stat Girl!! ...Morning Kimmi :-)

    [/QUOTE]


    Good morning Jete.   Don't make me post the Yankees' Pythagorean W-L record again....  

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Gonzalez was/is a good player and his contract looked good at the time, but he has declined on the field as well...look it up, Napoli has better numbers than A-Gon since 2012.

     

    I believe A-Gon was seen as the price Boston had to pay to shed the Crawford and Beckett contracts, but in hindsight I'm glad we're not stuck paying him $21 million a year through 2018 either.

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    There are a lot of posters in here that don't get that.  They look at the first year of a FA, which is generally good, and blame BC for not signing him.  But then they generally get real quiet in the latter half of the contract.  How many people wanted Tex?  They whined non-stop the first year, then quietly disappeared as his career predictably declined.

    Which is not to say that you can't occasionally buy an FA when you have a hole you can't fill, but these guys seldom work out in the long run.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    Shaughnessy is just being Shaughnessy, who is someone who likes to rattle our cages. 

    There are 30 teams in MLB, and the Sox consistently rank in the top ten, often the top five, in home attendance, and, since the arrival of John Henry, have always ranked in the top five in salaries.  So there is no realistic, fact-driven way of defining the Sox as a mid level market team.

    However, if you consider the Yankees, who are in the same division, who are presumptive rivals of the Sox, who have won 27 WS--the most in MLB and the most professional championships of any sports franchise in America--and who regularly outspend every other team in MLB, if you consider the Yankees to be the prototypical top level market team, then maybe you have a case for the calling the Sox mid level.  Johnny Damon was a good hitter with a good year in 2004, so he was gone--to the Yankees.  Before that the Sox had a deal to get ARod from Texas, but the MLBPA wouldn't accept it because ARod was going to accept less money to play for a good team.  Instead, ARod went to the Yankees, who not only continued his $25M/year salary, but later agreed to pay him $28M a year thru age 42.  Ellsbury going to the Yankees for a ridiculous amount of money was part of the same pattern.  Clearly, if the Yankees are the standard for doing things right, the Sox are falling short.  Otherwise, not. 

    On the other hand, the Sox themselves have been known to ramp things up to get a good player--thus the acquisition of Manny Ramirez at $20M a year and later the acquisitions of AGon, CC, and even John Lackey.  Plus Schilling and then Beckett.  All well compensated.  Manny was probably worth it despite Manny being Manny.  CC definitely was not.  Lackey was not until last year, when the tommy john surgery and rehab and big salary despite not doing much paid off handsomely.  Schilling was worth it, and Beckett was definitely worth it in 2007, including the postseason, but otherwise not so much.   

    I thought the deal sending CC, AGon (the pot sweetener for the other two), and Beckett to the Dodgers in the summer of 2012 was absolutely the right deal to make.  So did most other folks.  But maybe Shaughnessy would have us believe it was a mistake because the Sox should be doing their utmost to spend close to what the Yankees spend.  If so, I disagree.

    A word or two more on Ellsbury, who is currently paid $22M/year, which is double, triple, and even quadruple what the Sox paid him, depending on the year, and that includes 2011, which was a career year for Ells and which is unlikely ever to be duplicated.  Right now his WAR (wins above replacement, which measures overall value, hitting, fielding, baserunning, of a player) is 2.2, which ranks him 10th among MLB centerfielders.  It goes without saying he is paid much more than the 9 ranked above him.  More interesting is that just two notches below, ranked 12th with a WAR of 2.0, is someone named Jackie Bradley Jr., who replaced Ellsbury in CF for the Red Sox.

    So I am herewith calling out Mr. Shaughnessy and saying the Sox decision not to pay a king's ransom for Ellsbury and to take a chance on JBJ was a smart baseball decision and that you do not pay $152M for a decent not great bat (his OPS is .770, below his career average of .787, which is a gigantic surprise because the Yankee Stadium short porch in RF was made to boost Ellsbury's numbers), a weak arm, and great wheels.  Those guys are worth maybe $12M/year. 

    Let me say too that last year's success, especially in the postseason, was clearly the result of design, not happenstance.  The Sox regular season hitting was very good and, I agree, a surprise, but I think we should also agree none of us expected Ellsbury (back after missing 2012), Ortiz, Victorino, Napoli, Saltalamacchia, and Pedroia to have lousy years at the plate.  The surprises were Napoli's fielding, not hitting, Iglesias's hitting (but he was traded on August 1), Drew's fielding, and the good hitting of the LF platoon, Nava/Gomes.  The Sox made no major changes in pitching before the 2013 season, but did acquire Peavy (for Iglesias) after Buchholz went down in June.  Yet it was clearly the pitching, plus a very few clutch hits despite overall weak hitting, that carried the Sox in the postseason because the team ERA for those 16 games was 2.00. 

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:
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    In response to jete02fan's comment:
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    look, up in the sky, it's a bird!, it's a plane!, it's Super Stat Girl!! ...Morning Kimmi :-)

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    Good morning Jete.   Don't make me post the Yankees' Pythagorean W-L record again....  

    [/QUOTE]

    Kimmi, the Yanks are putting another beating on old Pythagoras this year LOL

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
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    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:
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    In response to jete02fan's comment:
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    look, up in the sky, it's a bird!, it's a plane!, it's Super Stat Girl!! ...Morning Kimmi :-)

    [/QUOTE]

    Good morning Jete.   Don't make me post the Yankees' Pythagorean W-L record again....  

    [/QUOTE]

    Kimmi, the Yanks are putting another beating on old Pythagoras this year LOL

     

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    [object HTMLDivElement]

    Ben should have signed Pythagoras last year but, of course, being LL's coffee boy, he blew that one too.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
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    In response to georom4's comment:
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    In response to chetgnat's comment:
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    In response to az55's comment:
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    He nailed this one.

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    if not overpaying for an Ellsbury means you're a mid-level team, i'd prefer they be a mid-level team. the new game (post-roids) is being dynamic, agile and smart. without roids, humans naturally break down over time. it's a stock-picker's market. there will be situations where long-term commitments make sense. like, say, if Mike Trout became a free agent (assuming there's no hint of PED issues). but in most cases, those deals become albatrosses around a team's neck. this year's sox will stink, and that's ok. because they have several young, promising players getting experience. with a free agent pitcher or two, they could very well be back in contention next year, and could do so without breaking the bank.

    they are in a good position. it just means a boring couple of months ahead. or best case they could make some trades, pick up even more prospects and still go on a run. all better than wasting money this year and being worse off for the future. 

    right now, the Sox' future is bright. 

    [/QUOTE]


    is this really how you describe this team in 2014? cant steal a base, lay a bunt down, move runners over...if this is so important why did we let Ells walk? Because this is nonsense - what matters to this ownership is saving money by signing cheaper players...Shank has this 100% correct

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    But they are not signing cheap players; they are just not going long and bloated on semi-stars.  Are you upset they didn't do what so many here were clamoring for last off-season and sign Brian McCann, or Choo, or Beltran?  Yeah, I know.  It blows.  They don't have proper protection for Papi.  They don't have enough wheels and they don't have enough pop.  But, frankly, I would rather the FO err on the side of not wasting money and running a little lean until actually excellent players come to market than be bloated with long-term fat contracts on semi-good guys.  Leave that to the Yankees thank you.  We've done the Fat Cat Bloat and it aint pretty.

    [/QUOTE]
    Don't want to pay players but don't blink a eye to raise ticket prices. Fill those seats and not waste money because sox fans are so stupid we have them eating out of our hand.Why can the Yanks sign Ells ? Because they can. Why can Yanks sign Lester because they can.Why can't Sox keep their players ? Because Henry is so tide up with his soccer team. Money up the AZZ but why be a fat cat when Sox fans are shoulder to shoulder in those tiny little seats watching crap because Henry has his sold out circus going on.  Your right ,why spend when he can take.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to jete02fan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:
    [QUOTE]



    Well said.  The Sox had more go right than wrong last year, but to say that everyone overachieved or that everything went right is absurd.  

    Their record was actually below their Pythagorean W-L record of 100 wins.  Using that as a starting point, it was not unreasonable at all to think that this year's team could win 90-93 games.

     

    [/QUOTE] look, up in the sky, it's a bird!, it's a plane!, it's Super Stat Girl!! ...Morning Kimmi :-)


    [/QUOTE]


    LOL jeets 

    maybe our super stats girl should look at the sox pythagorean last yr

    and the yanks this yr

    and pick a different stat to love

     

     

    here U go miss kimmi

     

     

    put it on the shelf

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to donrd4's comment:
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    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
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    In response to georom4's comment:
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    In response to chetgnat's comment:
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    In response to az55's comment:
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    He nailed this one.

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    if not overpaying for an Ellsbury means you're a mid-level team, i'd prefer they be a mid-level team. the new game (post-roids) is being dynamic, agile and smart. without roids, humans naturally break down over time. it's a stock-picker's market. there will be situations where long-term commitments make sense. like, say, if Mike Trout became a free agent (assuming there's no hint of PED issues). but in most cases, those deals become albatrosses around a team's neck. this year's sox will stink, and that's ok. because they have several young, promising players getting experience. with a free agent pitcher or two, they could very well be back in contention next year, and could do so without breaking the bank.

    they are in a good position. it just means a boring couple of months ahead. or best case they could make some trades, pick up even more prospects and still go on a run. all better than wasting money this year and being worse off for the future. 

    right now, the Sox' future is bright. 

    [/QUOTE]


    is this really how you describe this team in 2014? cant steal a base, lay a bunt down, move runners over...if this is so important why did we let Ells walk? Because this is nonsense - what matters to this ownership is saving money by signing cheaper players...Shank has this 100% correct

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    But they are not signing cheap players; they are just not going long and bloated on semi-stars.  Are you upset they didn't do what so many here were clamoring for last off-season and sign Brian McCann, or Choo, or Beltran?  Yeah, I know.  It blows.  They don't have proper protection for Papi.  They don't have enough wheels and they don't have enough pop.  But, frankly, I would rather the FO err on the side of not wasting money and running a little lean until actually excellent players come to market than be bloated with long-term fat contracts on semi-good guys.  Leave that to the Yankees thank you.  We've done the Fat Cat Bloat and it aint pretty.

    [/QUOTE]
    Don't want to pay players but don't blink a eye to raise ticket prices. Fill those seats and not waste money because sox fans are so stupid we have them eating out of our hand.Why can the Yanks sign Ells ? Because they can. Why can Yanks sign Lester because they can.Why can't Sox keep their players ? Because Henry is so tide up with his soccer team. Money up the AZZ but why be a fat cat when Sox fans are shoulder to shoulder in those tiny little seats watching crap because Henry has his sold out circus going on.  Your right ,why spend when he can take.

    [/QUOTE]

    The Yankees spend more than anyone because they have more money than anyone, every single year.  They go by a different standard.  Consider ARod, who ten or so years ago was about ready to come to the Sox and take a small salary cut from his $25M a year package with the Rangers.  MLBPA stopped the deal because ARod was the standard for all MLB salaries, and the Yankees swooped in to get him at $25M/year and then not to long ago guaranteed him $28M/year until he is 42.  Insane.  But that's what you want the Sox FO to do--spend without rhyme or reason. 

    Worth noting is that, after the Yankees took ARod and Damon, they won a WS. But the Sox have won three (two since losing Damon).  Now tell me again who is smart and who ain't? 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    Don't want to pay players but don't blink a eye to raise ticket prices. Fill those seats and not waste money because sox fans are so stupid we have them eating out of our hand.Why can the Yanks sign Ells ? Because they can. Why can Yanks sign Lester because they can.Why can't Sox keep their players ? Because Henry is so tide up with his soccer team. Money up the AZZ but why be a fat cat when Sox fans are shoulder to shoulder in those tiny little seats watching crap because Henry has his sold out circus going on.  Your right ,why spend when he can take.

    ......

     

    The Red Sox don't deserve fans this clueless.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    Don't want to pay players but don't blink a eye to raise ticket prices. Fill those seats and not waste money because sox fans are so stupid we have them eating out of our hand.

    You can post that every hour on the hour, if you want, and i can continue to post that we have been #2 in payroll since Henry bought the team.

    What do you think folks will believe?  Your misguided opinion, or my facts?

    Why can the Yanks sign Ells ? Because they can. Why can Yanks sign Lester because they can.

    Why did we get Ellsbury for his prime years?

    Why did we get Lester for his prime years?

    Why can I wear three different WSC T-shirts?

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    Sure, let's throw cash at every nine-figure free agent to come down the pipeline, worth it or not...you know, "because we can." You want to be the Yankees so badly? Go check out their $200 million barely-500 team full of overpaid underperformers and injury-plagued old guys, and their barren farm system to boot. Yes, they are so much better off. (Wait until A-Rod and his contract are back for three more years!)

    Is that what you want the Red Sox to be? Sometimes I think so, because that's exactly what we'd look like too if some of you had your way.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Sure, let's throw cash at every nine-figure free agent to come down the pipeline, worth it or not...you know, "because we can." You want to be the Yankees so badly? Go check out their $200 million barely-500 team full of overpaid underperformers and injury-plagued old guys, and their barren farm system to boot. Yes, they are so much better off. (Wait until A-Rod and his contract are back for three more years!)

    Is that what you want the Red Sox to be? Sometimes I think so, because that's exactly what we'd look like too if some of you had your way.

    [/QUOTE]


    how bout leaving the yanks out of it

    otherwise

    it sounds like U R saying U would rather be in last place than 2nd

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Shaughnessy Sox have become a mid level market team

    how bout leaving the yanks out of it

    otherwise

    it sounds like U R saying U would rather be in last place than 2nd

     

    Zac, I'd be happy to leave the Yanks out of it...donrd is the one having pangs of jealousy for you guys.

     
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