Shortstop depth

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    With Bogaerts now with the Sox, let's take a look at our much heralded shortstop depth in the minors:  Pawtucket - Meneses, batting .200- just promoted from Portland , where he hit .255.    Portland - Deven Marrero- batting .211, recently promoted from Salem , where he hit .256.    Salem -  Natoli, batting .189.   Greenville -  Vinicio , batting .202.   Lowell -  Lin , batting .227.   Folks , that is what we are calling " shortstop depth."  Our " position of strength." 

     

     



    So you like Iggy who had a horrible BA in the minors, but you want to judge Marrero by his horrible BA in the minors.

     

     

    Got it.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Exactly. These guys want to have it both ways.

     

    No consistent criteria.

    Small sample size judgements- sometimes as small as one game.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    but Moon! i'll have you know a went to a single AAA game and saw Xander bobble a GB!! Obviously this means he is a bust...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    With Bogaerts now with the Sox, let's take a look at our much heralded shortstop depth in the minors:  Pawtucket - Meneses, batting .200- just promoted from Portland , where he hit .255.    Portland - Deven Marrero- batting .211, recently promoted from Salem , where he hit .256.    Salem -  Natoli, batting .189.   Greenville -  Vinicio , batting .202.   Lowell -  Lin , batting .227.   Folks , that is what we are calling " shortstop depth."  Our " position of strength." 

     

     

     



    So you like Iggy who had a horrible BA in the minors, but you want to judge Marrero by his horrible BA in the minors.

    I agree that he did not handle his demotion very well.  I just think it is a mistake to assume that he cannot hit.  He continues to demonstrate that he can.  At 23 years old, it is certainly possible that he will continue to improve. Same with Marrero. But Iglesias is pretty far ahead of Marrero at this point.

     

     

    Got it.

     

     

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    They are the same age. Iglesias is the Tiger's shortstop. Marrero is trying to adjust to AA pitching.  Same age.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That's a valid point. But Iggy was just "trying to adjust" to AAA pitching two months ago. Remember? Iggy hit 202  this in AAA.

     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to 37stories's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

     

     

    With Bogaerts now with the Sox, let's take a look at our much heralded shortstop depth in the minors:  Pawtucket - Meneses, batting .200- just promoted from Portland , where he hit .255.    Portland - Deven Marrero- batting .211, recently promoted from Salem , where he hit .256.    Salem -  Natoli, batting .189.   Greenville -  Vinicio , batting .202.   Lowell -  Lin , batting .227.   Folks , that is what we are calling " shortstop depth."  Our " position of strength." 

     

     

     



    So you like Iggy who had a horrible BA in the minors, but you want to judge Marrero by his horrible BA in the minors.

     

     

     

    Got it.

     




    They are the same age. Iglesias is the Tiger's shortstop. Marrero is trying to adjust to AA pitching.  Same age.

     

     



    That's a valid point. But Iggy was just "trying to adjust" to AAA pitching two months ago. Remember? Iggy hit 202  this in AAA.

     


    I agree that he did not handle his demotion very well. I just think it is a mistake to assume that he cannot hit. He continues to demonstrate that he can. At 23 years old, it is certainly possible that he will continue to improve. Same with Marrero. But Iglesias is pretty far ahead of Marrero at this point.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    With Bogaerts now with the Sox, let's take a look at our much heralded shortstop depth in the minors:  Pawtucket - Meneses, batting .200- just promoted from Portland , where he hit .255.    Portland - Deven Marrero- batting .211, recently promoted from Salem , where he hit .256.    Salem -  Natoli, batting .189.   Greenville -  Vinicio , batting .202.   Lowell -  Lin , batting .227.   Folks , that is what we are calling " shortstop depth."  Our " position of strength." 

     

     



    So you like Iggy who had a horrible BA in the minors, but you want to judge Marrero by his horrible BA in the minors.

     

     

    Got it.




    Exactly. These guys want to have it both ways.

     

    No consistent criteria.

    Small sample size judgements- sometimes as small as one game.

     

     



    You are getting carried away with your " small sample size " arguments, even when it does not apply at all.  My post shows season to date stats. Where is that a small sample size ? 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    I wasn't referring to this thread.

    Sox4ever

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    Bogaerts should be playing today. Farrell with his head in the sand. The offense really scored a ton last night.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to ADG's comment:

    Bogaerts should be playing today. Farrell with his head in the sand. The offense really scored a ton last night.



    1-3, 2B and a walk

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    Who was the guy who wanted Boggy at 3B, Middy at 1B, and Naps on the bench?

    Sox4ever

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to ADG's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Bogaerts should be playing today. Farrell with his head in the sand. The offense really scored a ton last night.

     



    1-3, 2B and a walk

     

    [/QUOTE]

    And the double was off the starter.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Is this the best whine you could come up with?  A complaint about the recently promoted Marrero after 9 games in AA?

     




    No, he can complain about lots of other things.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    Just pointing out that it is mistaken to justify the Iglesias trade by speaking of our shortstop depth. I hear that Bogaerts many errors do not matter. I keep hearing names like Marrerro, Vinicio and Lin. How well stocked we are. But is it really true ?  Are they really that good ?  Someone has to say these things. It just happens to be me.  We can't all be " house " posters.

    Stabbed by Foulke

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Just pointing out that it is mistaken to justify the Iglesias trade by speaking of our shortstop depth. I hear that Bogaerts many errors do not matter. I keep hearing names like Marrerro, Vinicio and Lin. How well stocked we are. But is it really true ?  Are they really that good ?  Someone has to say these things. It just happens to be me.  We can't all be " house " posters.

    Stabbed by Foulke



    well if you're going to take the initiative and see how good these guys are how about you look a little further than batting average?

    Scouting reports and FULL offensive stats perhaps?? A jumping off point if you will.

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    Just pointing out that it is mistaken to justify the Iglesias trade by speaking of our shortstop depth. I hear that Bogaerts many errors do not matter. I keep hearing names like Marrerro, Vinicio and Lin. How well stocked we are. But is it really true ?  Are they really that good ?  Someone has to say these things. It just happens to be me.  We can't all be " house " posters. 

    Stabbed by Foulke

     



    well if you're going to take the initiative and see how good these guys are how about you look a little further than batting average?

     

    Scouting reports and FULL offensive stats perhaps?? A jumping off point if you will.

     



    Well, I'm not going to spend too much time on this, so this will be it. OPS seems to be the stat that most like to quote, so we'll look at that. Marrerro has a .507 OPS at AA and .676 at Class A Salem.   Vinicio has a .499 OPS at low A Greenville.  Lin has a . 614 OPS at short season Lowell.  Bogaerts is certainly a strong hitter with a great future , but maybe not at shortstop. He has 20 errors between Portland and Pawtucket.  Also note that Lin has already committed 19 errors at Lowell. Vinicio has an incredible 29 errors , to go with his .499 OPS, .201 B.A. and one home run at Greenville.  Hopefully, these guys will improve, but to cite their presence in the minors as justification for trading Iglesias is simply wrong. Note that I was never , at any point , negative about the ability and future of Iglesias. It is a thankless task to point out the things that are wrong.  Easier to be a " house " poster and cheerleader. Maybe I will have to go the way of Softlaw and Andrewmitch.  Take my negativity and wander off into the sunset. 

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    Just pointing out that it is mistaken to justify the Iglesias trade by speaking of our shortstop depth. I hear that Bogaerts many errors do not matter. I keep hearing names like Marrerro, Vinicio and Lin. How well stocked we are. But is it really true ?  Are they really that good ?  Someone has to say these things. It just happens to be me.  We can't all be " house " posters. 

    Stabbed by Foulke

     



    well if you're going to take the initiative and see how good these guys are how about you look a little further than batting average?

     

    Scouting reports and FULL offensive stats perhaps?? A jumping off point if you will.

     



    Well, I'm not going to spend too much time on this, so this will be it. OPS seems to be the stat that most like to quote, so we'll look at that. Marrerro has a .507 OPS at AA and .676 at Class A Salem.   Vinicio has a .499 OPS at low A Greenville.  Lin has a . 614 OPS at short season Lowell.  Bogaerts is certainly a strong hitter with a great future , but maybe not at shortstop. He has 20 errors between Portland and Pawtucket.  Also note that Lin has already committed 19 errors at Lowell. Vinicio has an incredible 29 errors , to go with his .499 OPS, .201 B.A. and one home run at Greenville.  Hopefully, these guys will improve, but to cite their presence in the minors as justification for trading Iglesias is simply wrong. Note that I was never , at any point , negative about the ability and future of Iglesias. It is a thankless task to point out the things that are wrong.  Easier to be a " house " poster and cheerleader. Maybe I will have to go the way of Softlaw and Andrewmitch.  Take my negativity and wander off into the sunset. 

     



    First, I don't understand why you want to lump yourself in with softy, who would simply resort to namecalling when you disagreed with him, or andrewmitch, who was so weak-willed and thin-skinned that he would ignore you if you disagreed with him.

    For me, when I've disagreed with you I seem to remember being able to have an actual discussion on the matter -- something that was impossible with softy and andrew.

    In this case, I don't think it has anything to do with being a "house" poster or cheerleader. Most of the responses have been based on perceived flaws in your argument.

    For instance, you state that the Iggy trade was justified because of depth at SS in the system. That news to me. I've heard less about the depth in the system and more of the team having more faith in Bogaerts at SS in being a better all-around SS. Yes, Iggy is better defensively, but Bogaerts might be the better all-around package.

    As I stated earlier, if that's the case, the immediate depth is moot. You seem to think that Bogaerts isn't long for the job at SS. That may be true, but ... the team has been insistent that Bogaerts is the SS for the immediate future -- hence the trade of Iggy. With Bogaerts at SS, it gives the others more time to develop.

    Also, you're bringing up names that I've never heard in the discussion of SS of the future with the exception of Marraro. But even with him, there were questions about his hitting.

    It's also not a strong analysis to simply use stats to evaluate a player. Iggy had decent batting averages in the minors, but the team didn't like his overall approach. So if batting averages of the other players are lower, they still might be showing the team more positives that gives the team more confidence in the ability to develop.

    And while errors can be telling, again it's not a very reliable indicator either. Minor league field aren't always in the best shape. So the kind of errors a player is making needs to be factored in. Many great defensive players have had high error totals in the minors and young but improved dramatically in the majors, mostly because they kept working to improve but also the field conditions helped a lot.

    I agree with you in that on a first look, the depth in the minors at SS might not be impressive. But as I stated, I don't see that as a reason for the trade and against to repeat, if Bogaerts is the SS of the future, that depth is not important.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    I would agree with you if I concurred that Bogaerts is the shortstop of the future. I think the team would have been better off in the future with Iglesias at short and Bogaerts at third or left field. The trade will look better if Peavy can prove to be a difference maker in the rotation. That remains to be seen. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    I would agree with you if I concurred that Bogaerts is the shortstop of the future. I think the team would have been better off in the future with Iglesias at short and Bogaerts at third or left field. The trade will look better if Peavy can prove to be a difference maker in the rotation. That remains to be seen. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.



    In the end if they sign Drew to a two year deal then it doesn't really matter if Bogaerts is or is not the short stop of the future or the now. Cherington would not have traded Iglesias if they weren't comfortable with where Bogaert's was in terms of his development and weren't confident that they could man the position in the near term.  

    Iglesias is a magician with the glove and I too loved to watch the kid play. What he is not and likely will never be is a prototypical Red Sox hitter due to his lack of commanding the strike zone. IMHO trading a player that projects to be a career #9 hitter regardless of his prowess in the field is not something to lose a ton of sleep over. Drew is the better player today and fits the model of the type of player that Cherington wants in the lineup and the dugout.

    Bogaerts projects to be an impact player at 20 years old playing AAA...He's already 2 years ahead of schedule based on league age...if and when he's ready to make the jump to the big leagues for good it won't be until he's judged to be ready...that could be a soon as next year. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    I would agree with you if I concurred that Bogaerts is the shortstop of the future. I think the team would have been better off in the future with Iglesias at short and Bogaerts at third or left field. The trade will look better if Peavy can prove to be a difference maker in the rotation. That remains to be seen. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.



    Of course, many kept waiting for Ripken to move from SS to 3B for 15 years or so. I think Bogaerts is the SS of the future because I think Drew won't be re-signed and that's why Iggy was traded. The question then becomes: how long is the future -- one year, two years, five years, 10 years?

    As far as the trade of Iggy, it will be determined down the road on how good it was based on what Iggy does, what Peavy does and what Bogaerts does.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    I'm certainly not a pink glasses poster here. I was highly criticized last winter for all but writing off any hopes we had a serious chance to win a ring.

    I was highly critical of the Crawford signing, the Dempster signing, the Victorino signing, the Drew signing and more. I was critical of starting Aviles over Iggy last season. I wanted Iggy as our SS of the future. I thought it made most sense to move Boggy to 3B and Middy to 1B, but I have never pretended to be a better GM than Theo or Ben, just because I was right a few times. 

    I did not like the Iggy trade, but I do think Peavy is a real good starter. I realize that Iggy may never have become our FT SS (like it or not), so the trade makes sense in that light. With Cecchini on the rise, I can see how keeping Boggy at SS, weak defense or not, makes some sense. I'd prefer to have great D at SS, but we do have depth in the minors at SS defense. I'm not saying Marrero, Lin, or Vinicio will ever be as great on defense as Iggy, but they are very very good. Their offense is still in doubt, but they are no worse than Iggy looked in the minors. Yes, some are older than Iggy, but some have very little professional baseball experience to date. They deserve a chance to improve- just as Iggy did. Ben deserves a chance to prove himself- just as Theo did.

    Sox4ever

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    With Bogaerts now with the Sox, let's take a look at our much heralded shortstop depth in the minors:  Pawtucket - Meneses, batting .200- just promoted from Portland , where he hit .255.    Portland - Deven Marrero- batting .211, recently promoted from Salem , where he hit .256.    Salem -  Natoli, batting .189.   Greenville -  Vinicio , batting .202.   Lowell -  Lin , batting .227.   Folks , that is what we are calling " shortstop depth."  Our " position of strength." 

     

     



    So you like Iggy who had a horrible BA in the minors, but you want to judge Marrero by his horrible BA in the minors.

     

     

    Got it.




    Exactly. These guys want to have it both ways.

     

    No consistent criteria.

    Small sample size judgements- sometimes as small as one game.

     

     

     



    You are getting carried away with your " small sample size " arguments, even when it does not apply at all.  My post shows season to date stats. Where is that a small sample size ? 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Maybe, but they are carried too much by the ridiculou luck Iglesias had early in the season.

     

    In his last 30 games (nice round number), he has a .572 OPS.  Since July 4, Iglesias is .537.  Iglesias stopped hittng a while ago. 

     

    If you plan pn using the batting average / errors argument that all the minor league SS's are awful, why haven't you shown how awesome Iglesias was as a minor league hitter?  Or brought up his errors?  If you did this exercise a year ago with Iglesias, you would not have considered him anything at all....

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    With Bogaerts now with the Sox, let's take a look at our much heralded shortstop depth in the minors:  Pawtucket - Meneses, batting .200- just promoted from Portland , where he hit .255.    Portland - Deven Marrero- batting .211, recently promoted from Salem , where he hit .256.    Salem -  Natoli, batting .189.   Greenville -  Vinicio , batting .202.   Lowell -  Lin , batting .227.   Folks , that is what we are calling " shortstop depth."  Our " position of strength." 

     




    You forgot Jonathan Diaz who when he plays ss plays it real well.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    OK fielder.  Excellent plate patience.  Poor overall actual hitter.  And too old to really be a prospect anymore...

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    With Bogaerts now with the Sox, let's take a look at our much heralded shortstop depth in the minors:  Pawtucket - Meneses, batting .200- just promoted from Portland , where he hit .255.    Portland - Deven Marrero- batting .211, recently promoted from Salem , where he hit .256.    Salem -  Natoli, batting .189.   Greenville -  Vinicio , batting .202.   Lowell -  Lin , batting .227.   Folks , that is what we are calling " shortstop depth."  Our " position of strength." 

     

     



    Well if Bogaerts is the SS of the future, it's kind of moot. It was only important because fans were shuffling guys all over the place. But if Middlebrooks is 3B and Bogaerts SS, then the only immediate IF need is 1B. Later, if Cecchini (sp?) is ready for 3B and Middlebrooks goes to 1B, then Bogaerts still is SS and there's not need to rush Marrero.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it will become readily apparent that Bogaerts needs to be moved from short to third or left. He is not even remotely the defensive shortstop that Iglesias is.  Marrero is already the same age as Iglesias, batting .211 in AA , while Iglesias is batting .324 in MLB.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    You undersell and oversimplify EVERYTHING that does not meet your argument.

     

    This is also Marrero's SECOND pro season, and he has a better offensive track record to date in the minors than Iglesias. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    With Bogaerts now with the Sox, let's take a look at our much heralded shortstop depth in the minors:  Pawtucket - Meneses, batting .200- just promoted from Portland , where he hit .255.    Portland - Deven Marrero- batting .211, recently promoted from Salem , where he hit .256.    Salem -  Natoli, batting .189.   Greenville -  Vinicio , batting .202.   Lowell -  Lin , batting .227.   Folks , that is what we are calling " shortstop depth."  Our " position of strength." 

     

     

     



    Well if Bogaerts is the SS of the future, it's kind of moot. It was only important because fans were shuffling guys all over the place. But if Middlebrooks is 3B and Bogaerts SS, then the only immediate IF need is 1B. Later, if Cecchini (sp?) is ready for 3B and Middlebrooks goes to 1B, then Bogaerts still is SS and there's not need to rush Marrero.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it will become readily apparent that Bogaerts needs to be moved from short to third or left. He is not even remotely the defensive shortstop that Iglesias is.  Marrero is already the same age as Iglesias, batting .211 in AA , while Iglesias is batting .324 in MLB.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    You undersell and oversimplify EVERYTHING that does not meet your argument.

     

     

    This is also Marrero's SECOND pro season, and he has a better offensive track record to date in the minors than Iglesias. 

    [/QUOTE]

    So , four years of big time college ball is a debit?  One would think it would be a credit, especially for a number one pick. I repeat. They are the same age. Iglesias is the shortstop ( thanks to Ben ) for the playoff bound Tigers.  Marrero is still trying to figure out AA pitching.  That is not a fantasy, it is the reality. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Shortstop depth

    We have Mookie Betts, too.  He's been moved to 2B, but after this year, I wouldn't be surprised if he's a top 100 prospect.  He would be a plus defender at SS.

    Betts would be a nice guy to have as a utility IF, too.  He may be too talented in the long run to keep out of the starting lineup, but he could provide late inning defense, steal a base as a pinch-runner, and contribute at the plate.

     

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