Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    Another poster asked to do a comparison between shortstops. WAR for all glove-no bat SSs VS WAR for all glove-no bat SSs.

    I started looking around a bit and decided to delve deeper into the issue. Using FanGraphs,  i picked 2 players and compared their WAR. One player has a high "Batting" component (used in WAR calculations) and a negative "Fielding" component while the other player has the opposite. A high "fielding" component and a negative "batting" component. I also included the WAR leader for that year (marked in bold with a *) and where applicable Stephen Drews numbers over that time period (marked in bold with a **). I did isolated comparisons, a 1 year window over the past 5 years and also a large scale comparison of a 5 year window (08-12). Here are the numbers:

     --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                               JJ hardy VS Jeter in 2012

                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR
    JJ Hardy:        -16.4 (18 of 19)                  11.4 (1 of 19)           2.8 (11 of 19)

    Jeter:               16.9 (3 of 19)                  -15.2 (19 of 19)          3.2 (8 of 19)

    Zobrist*:          30.6 (1 of 19)                   6.9 (6 of 19)             5.9 (1 of 19)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0&season1=2010&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=5,d

                                   Alcides Escobar VS Asdrubal Cabrera in 2011


                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR

    Escobar:         -17.6 (20 of 20)                  10.2 (3 of 20)            2.2 (14 of 20)

    Cabrera:           17.0 (4 of 20)                  -11.8 (20 of 20)          3.8 (10 of 20)

    Reyes*:          30.1 (1 of 20)                    -3.1 (12 of 20)           6.2 (1 of 20)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0&season1=2010&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=3,d

                                        Hanley Ramirez VS Alexi Ramirez in 2010

                               Batting                            Fielding                      WAR

    Hanram:          22.8 (2 of 22)                   -10.2 (21 of 22)           4.6 (3 of 22)

    Alexi:               -1.7 (8 of 22)                     10.8 (1 of 22)            4.2 (4 of 22)

    Tulowitski*:    27.9 (1 of 22)                     7.1 (4 of 22)             6.3 (1 of 22)

    Drew**:          13.1 (3 of 22)                     8.7 (3 of 22)             5.1 (2 of 22)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2009&month=0&season1=2009&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=10,d

                                          Jason Bartlet VS Elvis Andrus in 2009


                              Batting                            Fielding                      WAR

    Bartlet:           28.5 (3 of 20)                   -5.6 (16 of 20)            5.5 (4 of 20)

    Andrus:         -10.4 (15 of 20)                   12.1 (1 of 20)            3.4 (9 of 20)

    Hanram*:     40.5 (1 of 20)                   -0.2 (13 of 20)            7.4 (1 of 20)

    Drew**:       -7.5 (T-11 of 20)                  2.7 (8 of 20)            2.2 (15 of 20)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2009&month=0&season1=2009&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=10,d

                                    Stephen Drew VS Orlando Cabrera in 2008

                               Batting                            Fielding                      WAR 

    Drew**:           10.6 (5 of 17)                  -15.8 (17 of 17)          2.0 (14 of 17)

    Cabrera:         -11.9 (16 of 17)                  14.3 (1 of 17)            3.5 (9 of 17)

    Hanram*:        42.0 (1 of 17)                   0.8 (10 of 17)            7.5 (1 of 17)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2012&month=0&season1=2008&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

                                           select shortstops from 2008-2012

                                       Batting                            Fielding                      WAR

    HanRam*:             114.2 (1 of 49)                  -22.8 (47 of 49)          23.7 (1 of 49)

    Jose Reyes:              68.7 (3 of 49)                  -10.1 (38 of 49)          20.7 (2 of 49)

    Jeter:                      58.3 (4 of 49)                   -20.2 (46 of 49)          19.3 (5 of 49)

    Asdrubal C:              32.6 (5 of 49)                  -32.4 (48 of 49)          12.3 (13 of 49)

    Brendon Ryan:        -60.2 (47 of 49)                  45.4 (1 of 49)            9.4 (18 of 49)

    JJ Hardy:                 -4.7 (20 of 49)                   43.5 (2 of 49)            16.2 (6 of 49)

    Clint Barmes:          -54.2 (44 of 49)                  36.8 (3 of 49)            9.0 (21 of 49)

    Punto:                     -24.3(30 of 49)                  34.2 (4 of 49)            8.1 (23 of 49)

    Drew**:                  6.8 (10 of 49)                  -5.1 (33 of 49)           11.2 (15 of 49)

    *-WAR leader over that time period

    **-Stephen Drew over that time period

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

     

                            Batting                            Fielding                      WAR 

    Drew**:           10.6 (5 of 17)                  -15.8 (17 of 17)       

    No need to go any further, after the big negative on fielding. The guy is a SS in name only.

     



    Oh, now you trust UZR, but in the Jeter stinks debate, you tore it apart.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    Great work, mef.  Pretty interesting that the good hit bad field guys are so much higher in WAR.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    Softy's got a lot more than 2 steps.  He's got more dance moves than Fred Astaire.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Softy's got a lot more than 2 steps.  He's got more dance moves than Fred Astaire.




    Hes here for pure entertainment purposes only...Now that they will remove his bigoted, racist comments hes much easier to laugh at again...Like a child throwing a temper tantrum...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.



    Have you researched the "human element" of the Drew signing?

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

       IGGY will be your starting  SS by Memorial Day !!!!



    Just because it makes sense to us, doesn't mean it does (or will) to Ben.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.



    And that separates sabermetric stats from convential stats how?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

     

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.

     



    Have you researched the "human element" of the Drew signing?

     



    C'mon Moon, you know exactly what I am saying. All indications are that Drew is a great teammate but playing in Arizona is not playing at Fenway. Renteria couldn't play here, neither could Crawford. If Drew is as laid back as his brother, it should not be a problem.

    All I'm saying is, stats don't tell the whole story. It's not a "one size fits all" category, and you should know that better than most on this forum.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Great work, mef.  Pretty interesting that the good hit bad field guys are so much higher in WAR.




    Which is why Iggy should never see Fenway Park until he proves he can hit the baseball, which is likely never.

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Polly-'s comment:

    Pumpsie, do you have an update on Middlebrooks?




    No more than anyone else. He was cleared by the Sox medical team and will be seeing a specialist "as a precaution". Given their history of questionable competence (dealing with Ellsbury and Pedroia in particular) I do not trust their evaluations at face value. When Middlebrooks is back on the field playing pain free every day then I will believe there is nothing seriously wrong with his wrist. Its certainly suspicious that its the same area where he broke it last year.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.



    I don't think his position isn't about predicting Drew's success in Boston.  It is simply suggesting that the value of all-glove-no-stick shortstops (Iggy) is overrated.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Polly-'s comment:

     

    Pumpsie, do you have an update on Middlebrooks?

     




    No more than anyone else. He was cleared by the Sox medical team and will be seeing a specialist "as a precaution". Given their history of questionable competence (dealing with Ellsbury and Pedroia in particular) I do not trust their evaluations at face value. When Middlebrooks is back on the field playing pain free every day then I will believe there is nothing seriously wrong with his wrist. Its certainly suspicious that its the same area where he broke it last year.

     




    Define "everyday"...

    Two? Five? Thirty?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to ThefourBs's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to Polly-'s comment:

     

    Pumpsie, do you have an update on Middlebrooks?

     




    No more than anyone else. He was cleared by the Sox medical team and will be seeing a specialist "as a precaution". Given their history of questionable competence (dealing with Ellsbury and Pedroia in particular) I do not trust their evaluations at face value. When Middlebrooks is back on the field playing pain free every day then I will believe there is nothing seriously wrong with his wrist. Its certainly suspicious that its the same area where he broke it last year.

     

     




    Define "everyday"...

     

    Two? Five? Thirty?



    If he is out there for 3-4 consecutive days without pain I will be a believer. This medical staff is essentially the same as the one that screwed up Ellsbury and Pedroia; just the head was replaced. I am skeptical about their level of competence as well as the information they provide us.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to UnionFallsNY's comment:

    http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/25177/specialist-clears-middlebrooks




    Good news. Guess he will be starting batting practice tomorrow. Lets see what happens then.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    Love watching a slick fielding shortstop, but rather he'd have a good stick if he's in the lineup everyday, these stats appear to support that preference.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

     

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.

     



    Have you researched the "human element" of the Drew signing?

     

     



    C'mon Moon, you know exactly what I am saying. All indications are that Drew is a great teammate but playing in Arizona is not playing at Fenway. Renteria couldn't play here, neither could Crawford. If Drew is as laid back as his brother, it should not be a problem.

     

    All I'm saying is, stats don't tell the whole story. It's not a "one size fits all" category, and you should know that better than most on this forum.



    We don't know how anyone will do in Boston until they get here. It's not just the media and fans. I think some hitters get messed up by looking at the close LF wall. They get pitched to differently. They may not be affected.

    Also, we are not sure that the reason Renteria had an off fielding year with Boston was "haman element" related. Some say his back was hurting that season and could barely bend over. It might have been a crappy IF surface. 

    I haven't heard anything bad about Iggy's "personal element" and can't speculate on who is better in that category- Iggy or SD.

    As for SD's brother, one could argue that he did not thrive here, so maybe the "laid back" thing is not condusive to Fenway.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

    Love watching a slick fielding shortstop, but rather he'd have a good stick if he's in the lineup everyday, these stats appear to support that preference.

    seems like the postion's dynamics have really changed since the advent of the "big" shortstop(Cal, Jeter, Alex,Nomar..sorta, etc)...for a time i remember when offense from the ss was thought of as a bonus, as lineups had sluggers at most of the other positions 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

     

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

     

    Love watching a slick fielding shortstop, but rather he'd have a good stick if he's in the lineup everyday, these stats appear to support that preference.

     

    seems like the postion's dynamics have really changed since the advent of the "big" shortstop(Cal, Jeter, Alex,Nomar..sorta, etc)...for a time i remember when offense from the ss was thought of as a bonus, as lineups had sluggers at most of the other positions 

     

     



    Not so fast. We still had these team numbers at the SS position last year:

     

    14 teams at .250 or lower.

    10 teams under .240. (Sox at .234)

    6 teams under .231.

    2 teams under .215 (One made the playoffs)

    16 teams had an OBP under .310.

    9 teams under .287.

    5 teams under .278.

    11 teams under a .645 OPS. (Sox at .630)

    5 teams under a .607 OPS

     

    Half of all MLb teams have a SS OPS of below .695 over a 5 year period.

     

    My guess is that most of these teams had plus side defensive SSs out there for most of the season. Certainly less than 40-50 years ago, but still a good amount out there.

    The midpoint OPS by team last year was a .690 OPS: these teams in the bottom 15 made the playoffs:

    Tigers  .689

    Giants  .670

    Reds    .629

    A's       .606

    Braves .595

     

     

     

     

     
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