Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Great work, mef.  Pretty interesting that the good hit bad field guys are so much higher in WAR.




    it certainly looks that way, although in some cases the All glove-no bat guys are pretty close in WAR (2012, 2010) and even one instance (2008) where the all-glove SS beat out the all-bat SS in WAR. I really think this shows that you can go either way with it. Although given the choice it seems an all-bat SS is more valuable than the opposite..

    This also shows why we should keep XB at SS as long as he can give us "Meh" defense. People have been comparing XBs game to HanRam. It is clear that an elite offensive SS is valued more than an elite defensive SS (by ~8 wins over the time period) So if XB can give us elite offensive numbers from the SS position then he will be much more valuable than our resident Elite defender (Iggy).

     

    @Ali, this is not me saying Drew will be a fine SS (if it was, i would have said it) I just included his numbers because he is our current SS and i figured people would want to see where he ranks among other SSs (15th among SSs in WAR over the past 5 years. which outranks all but 1 elite defending SSs). It is also why i included the numbers from the WAR leader so people have some sort of comparison..

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Great work, mef.  Pretty interesting that the good hit bad field guys are so much higher in WAR.

     




    it certainly looks that way, although in some cases the All glove-no bat guys are pretty close in WAR (2012, 2010) and even one instance (2008) where the all-glove SS beat out the all-bat SS in WAR. I really think this shows that you can go either way with it. Although given the choice it seems an all-bat SS is more valuable than the opposite..

     

    This also shows why we should keep XB at SS as long as he can give us "Meh" defense. People have been comparing XBs game to HanRam. It is clear that an elite offensive SS is valued more than an elite defensive SS (by ~8 wins over the time period) So if XB can give us elite offensive numbers from the SS position then he will be much more valuable than our resident Elite defender (Iggy).

     

    @Ali, this is not me saying Drew will be a fine SS (if it was, i would have said it) I just included his numbers because he is our current SS and i figured people would want to see where he ranks among other SSs (15th among SSs in WAR over the past 5 years. which outranks all but 1 elite defending SSs). It is also why i included the numbers from the WAR leader so people have some sort of comparison..



    Could it be possible that WAR undervalues SS defense and overvalues offense?

    I think they also overvalue defense at other positions like LF.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Great work, mef.  Pretty interesting that the good hit bad field guys are so much higher in WAR.

     




    Which is why Iggy should never see Fenway Park until he proves he can hit the baseball, which is likely never.

     



    He is 3 for 10 with 1 HR and 1K

    Drew is 0 for 7

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    He is 3 for 10 with 1 HR and 1K

     

    Drew is 0 for 7




    I guess we need a new acronym.  SSS = Small Sample Size.  SSSS = Small Spring Sample Size.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

     

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.

     



    Have you researched the "human element" of the Drew signing?

     

     



    C'mon Moon, you know exactly what I am saying. All indications are that Drew is a great teammate but playing in Arizona is not playing at Fenway. Renteria couldn't play here, neither could Crawford. If Drew is as laid back as his brother, it should not be a problem.

     

    All I'm saying is, stats don't tell the whole story. It's not a "one size fits all" category, and you should know that better than most on this forum.

     



    We don't know how anyone will do in Boston until they get here. It's not just the media and fans. I think some hitters get messed up by looking at the close LF wall. They get pitched to differently. They may not be affected.

     

    Also, we are not sure that the reason Renteria had an off fielding year with Boston was "haman element" related. Some say his back was hurting that season and could barely bend over. It might have been a crappy IF surface. 

    I haven't heard anything bad about Iggy's "personal element" and can't speculate on who is better in that category- Iggy or SD.

    As for SD's brother, one could argue that he did not thrive here, so maybe the "laid back" thing is not condusive to Fenway.



    I really wasn't trying to suggest Iggy over Drew, although I think he would do fine, and I think his so-called, "lack of hitting" is blown way out of proportion. if you think about about all the SS's we've had going back to Nomar, none have tron the cover off the ball and none have been as slick fielding as Iglesias is.
    Seems like most on here want the whole enchilada (aplogies to Burrito-T), strong offense and defense.

    I want a long term solution and I think Iglesias is it.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    I really wasn't trying to suggest Iggy over Drew, although I think he would do fine, and I think his so-called, "lack of hitting" is blown way out of proportion. if you think about about all the SS's we've had going back to Nomar, none have tron the cover off the ball and none have been as slick fielding as Iglesias is.
    Seems like most on here want the whole enchilada (aplogies to Burrito-T), strong offense and defense.

     

    I want a long term solution and I think Iglesias is it.

    I agree, and since 2013 is a transition year, what better time to get his feet wet... until we signed Drew.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Polly-'s comment:

     

    Just came across thesr range factor comparisons by SS since 1974. Burleson is 2nd and Jeter is 124th.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/range_factor_per_nine_ss_career.shtml

     



    Quite a list of names there! All the top guys were insane fielders.

     

    Jeter is 125th out of the 126 qualifiers.

     

    Only Tony Womack is worse (by o.o35).

    BTW, did you see where Drew placed?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Polly-'s comment:

     

    Just came across thesr range factor comparisons by SS since 1974. Burleson is 2nd and Jeter is 124th.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/range_factor_per_nine_ss_career.shtml

     



    Quite a list of names there! All the top guys were insane fielders.

     

    Jeter is 125th out of the 126 qualifiers.

     

    Only Tony Womack is worse (by o.o35).

    BTW, did you see where Drew placed?

    just wondering, why were some ages given and some not???


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to Polly-'s comment:

     

    Just came across thesr range factor comparisons by SS since 1974. Burleson is 2nd and Jeter is 124th.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/range_factor_per_nine_ss_career.shtml

     



    Quite a list of names there! All the top guys were insane fielders.

     

    Jeter is 125th out of the 126 qualifiers.

     

    Only Tony Womack is worse (by o.o35).

    BTW, did you see where Drew placed?

     

    just wondering, why were some ages given and some not???


     



    They only gave the ages of current and active players... maybe so we can get an idea of how much time they have left to play and change their numbers.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Polly-'s comment:

    I remember Burleson for being gutsy, competitive , and having a blue-collar work ethic. Knew he had a great arm and could get timely hits. It never occured to me that he was so good defensively.



    He was great on defense. I hated losing him, but he dropped off quickly after he left here, as I recall.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

     

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.

     



    I don't think his position isn't about predicting Drew's success in Boston.  It is simply suggesting that the value of all-glove-no-stick shortstops (Iggy) is overrated.



    Great defense should never be overrated but Iggy hasn't exactly been so great defensively we should overlook the lack of offense and place him in the starting lineup.  He is still young and most fans have always expected too much, too quickly from him but I think "like Salty" he needs to improve his bat in the next year or two to stay in our organization.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

     

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

     

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.

     



    I don't think his position isn't about predicting Drew's success in Boston.  It is simply suggesting that the value of all-glove-no-stick shortstops (Iggy) is overrated.

     



    Great defense should never be overrated but Iggy hasn't exactly been so great defensively we should overlook the lack of offense and place him in the starting lineup.  He is still young and most fans have always expected too much, too quickly from him but I think "like Salty" he needs to improve his bat in the next year or two to stay in our organization.

     



    Iggy may be the best fielder in MLB, if he was there. He might make a handful more errors than the top Flg% SS, but he makes up for that with his exceptional range.

    He's 23. He has over 1,000 PAs in the minors plus over 300 in Cuba. 

     

    On Salty, I think you are expecting too much on offense from the catching position. Salty's numbers are better than you and many think they are.

    He had a .742 OPS last year, a .737 OPS the year before and has a career OPS or .720.

    How do those numbers compare to MLB team catcher numbers?

    In 2013, 

    .742 would be 10th (just .001 from 9th).

    .737 would be 11th (just .002 from 10th).

    .720 would be 11th.

    15 MLB teams had a catcher OPS below .700

    8 below .663.

    5 below .638.

    4 below .616.

    2 below .600.

     

    The league average catcher OPS in 2013 was .717. Salty was above average and is on an upward trend at age 28.

    The MLB average catcher line in 2013:

    (720 PAs) .247  21 84  (OBP .310/ SLG .399)

     

    Salty in 2013:

    (448 PAs) .222  25  59  (.288/.454)

    Salty's career at 162 games:

    (592)  .239  22  72  (.302/.418)

    Est. at 720 PAs (league avg team PAs in 2013)

    .239  25 88  (.302/.418)

     

    I think his bat will improve, but it is his fielding that needs to continue growth to stick around in our organization.

     

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    Last 3 years:

    1) SF  2 WS

    2) StL 1 WS, 2 playoffs

    3) Texas 2 WS losses

    4) Detroit 1 WS loss, 2 playoffs

    5) NYY 3 playoffs

    6) Philly 2 Playoffs

    7) TBR 2 playoffs

    0thers with 1 playoff: Bal, Wsh, Oak, Cin, Ari, Atl, Mil, MN

    Fangraph's Value page breaks down offense and defense. Here are the SS ratings over the last 3 years combined:

    Fielding:

    1) Detroit

    3) Balt

    4) SF

    5) Cin

    7) Tex

    10) AZ

    11) MN

    13) Oak

    14) Phil

    15) Mil

    16) TBR

    17) Atl

    22) Wsh

    24) StL

    29) NYY

     

    Batting:

    5) NYY

    8) Wsh

    9) Det

    13) TBR

    14) Phill

    16) StL

    17) Tex

    19) SF

    21) AZ

    22) Oak

    23) Bal

    27) Cin

    29) Mil

    30) MN

     

    StL has not been great at SS in both fielding (24) or hitting (16).

    SF has been good fielding (4) and below avg hitting (19).

    Tex- Good field (7) below avg hit (17)

    Det- Best fielding (1) and good hit (9)

    NYY- Horrible fielding (29) and good hit (5)

    Phil- avg: 14th field and 14th hit

    TBR- surprisingly slightly better hitting (13) than fielding (16)

     

    Take from this what you wish.

    3 of the top 4 teams by playoffs advancements are better fielding than hitting at SS, but of the top 7 teams, it is 3-3 with 1 tie.

     

     

     

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    i don't see why your bringing in team based accomplishments to support your opinion on a positional analysis.

    there are 24 other players on the team who attribute to getting to the PS and beyond.. i can't find any merit to this list moon. IMO.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to mef429's comment:

    i don't see why your bringing in team based accomplishments to support your opinion on a positional analysis.

    there are 24 other players on the team who attribute to getting to the PS and beyond.. i can't find any merit to this list moon. IMO.



    Brought it up to counter the post that said modern baseball is moving away from all field-no hit SSs towards all hit- no fild SSs.

    Team can win with either. Teams like StL have won with neither. But, for the most part, most playoff advancing teams have a better than average fielding SS, and not a better hitter than fielder.

    Yes, it is a team sport, but to me, the catching and SS defense is a big part of building a winner. Not essential, but very important never the less.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    Was the whole point of your research to justify Drew at SS? I wonder what Renteria's numbers looked like before he came to Boston?

    This is what is wrong with just looking at sabermetrics, it discounts so many other factors, especially the human element.



    But Ike, for the millionth time, nobody just looks at sabremetrics.  Do you think repeating that over and over makes you look good or bad?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Great work, mef.  Pretty interesting that the good hit bad field guys are so much higher in WAR.

     




    it certainly looks that way, although in some cases the All glove-no bat guys are pretty close in WAR (2012, 2010) and even one instance (2008) where the all-glove SS beat out the all-bat SS in WAR. I really think this shows that you can go either way with it. Although given the choice it seems an all-bat SS is more valuable than the opposite..

     

    This also shows why we should keep XB at SS as long as he can give us "Meh" defense. People have been comparing XBs game to HanRam. It is clear that an elite offensive SS is valued more than an elite defensive SS (by ~8 wins over the time period) So if XB can give us elite offensive numbers from the SS position then he will be much more valuable than our resident Elite defender (Iggy).

     

    @Ali, this is not me saying Drew will be a fine SS (if it was, i would have said it) I just included his numbers because he is our current SS and i figured people would want to see where he ranks among other SSs (15th among SSs in WAR over the past 5 years. which outranks all but 1 elite defending SSs). It is also why i included the numbers from the WAR leader so people have some sort of comparison..



    Good work, mef.  Don't forget WAR is cumulative and Drew missed a full season of the 5.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    i don't see why your bringing in team based accomplishments to support your opinion on a positional analysis.

    there are 24 other players on the team who attribute to getting to the PS and beyond.. i can't find any merit to this list moon. IMO.

     



    Brought it up to counter the post that said modern baseball is moving away from all field-no hit SSs towards all hit- no fild SSs.

     

    Team can win with either. Teams like StL have won with neither. But, for the most part, most playoff advancing teams have a better than average fielding SS, and not a better hitter than fielder.

    Yes, it is a team sport, but to me, the catching and SS defense is a big part of building a winner. Not essential, but very important never the less.

     




    fair enough. I never said that BB has moved away from fielding SSs. In fact, the data in the OP confirms what you just said, either way works. The only question i have is, do we want the best fielding SS or the best overall SS?? From a long term view (take Drew out of the equation) we have 2 prospects at opposite ends of the spectrum. At their best, XB is likely going to be an elite offensive SS with average defense (give or take). While Iggy is likely going to be an elite defensive SS with average offense (give or take). who do we go with at SS. you can't move XB to a different either :p

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Shortstops: All Bat VS All Glove.

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    i don't see why your bringing in team based accomplishments to support your opinion on a positional analysis.

    there are 24 other players on the team who attribute to getting to the PS and beyond.. i can't find any merit to this list moon. IMO.

     



    Brought it up to counter the post that said modern baseball is moving away from all field-no hit SSs towards all hit- no fild SSs.

     

    Team can win with either. Teams like StL have won with neither. But, for the most part, most playoff advancing teams have a better than average fielding SS, and not a better hitter than fielder.

    Yes, it is a team sport, but to me, the catching and SS defense is a big part of building a winner. Not essential, but very important never the less.

     




    fair enough. I never said that BB has moved away from fielding SSs. In fact, the data in the OP confirms what you just said, either way works. The only question i have is, do we want the best fielding SS or the best overall SS?? From a long term view (take Drew out of the equation) we have 2 prospects at opposite ends of the spectrum. At their best, XB is likely going to be an elite offensive SS with average defense (give or take). While Iggy is likely going to be an elite defensive SS with average offense (give or take). who do we go with at SS. you can't move XB to a different either :p

     



    If I was forced to choose, I'd go with Iggy and trade XB for a better player than we could get by trading Iggy.

    (But, you know, I'd prefer to move XB to 3B and Will-da-beast to 1B.)

    ;)

     
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