Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to billge's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And you know strange. He was 12 and 1.  Lets trade him and get someone better Sun over yard arm at Fantasy Island.



    Yes. 12-1. In a grand total of 108 innings. He is averaging about 120 innings per year over the six years he has been with the team for any length of time. Here is another guy like Ellsbury: great when he is in the lineup, but not in the lineup enough to qualify as a full time player. Issues like this get addressed when his contract comes up. I would keep him, but if he cannot demonstrate that he is a 200+ IP per year pitcher very soon then he should not be paid like one.

    [/QUOTE]


    He spent limited time in the majors in 2008-09 because he was not ready and was sent back to Pawtucket for about a year. Combined between MLB and the minors, he threw 134.2 innings over 26 starts in '08 and 191 over 32 starts in '09.

    Buchholz is a frustrating player who has lost major parts of two of the last four seasons to injuries...but using his major league totals from 08 and 09 to make the case that he is injury-prone is misleading. One might as well say that Jackie Bradley can't stay on the field because he only played 37 games in the majors in 2013.

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    It's completely asinine.  What sort of person would suggest...oh, it's Bill.

    If he can stay healthy he's a young, cheap ace.  Right now, he's somewhat damaged goods so we wouldn't get full value for him.  

    I'd trade FOR a guy like that!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to billge's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And you know strange. He was 12 and 1.  Lets trade him and get someone better Sun over yard arm at Fantasy Island.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes. 12-1. In a grand total of 108 innings. He is averaging about 120 innings per year over the six years he has been with the team for any length of time.Here is another guy like Ellsbury: great when he is in the lineup, but not in the lineup enough to qualify as a full time player. Issues like this get addressed when his contract comes up. I would keep him, but if he cannot demonstrate that he is a 200+ IP per year pitcher very soon then he should not be paid like one.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    He spent limited time in the majors in 2008-09 because he was not ready and was sent back to Pawtucket for about a year. Combined between MLB and the minors, he threw 134.2 innings over 26 starts in '08 and 191 over 32 starts in '09.

    Buchholz is a frustrating player who has lost major parts of two of the last four seasons to injuries...but using his major league totals from 08 and 09 to make the case that he is injury-prone is misleading. One might as well say that Jackie Bradley can't stay on the field because he only played 37 games in the majors in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    How is it misleading? Its a fact, just as its a fact that Ellsbury is injury prone-without assigning blame. He misses a lot of time; thats his history. Why should the team offer him full time pay for part time work? Hell, I would have loved to work part time and get a full salary when I was in the work force. I think he is probably worth what he will make in 2014, but when his contract comes up for renegotiation his absence from work needs to be taken into consideration if this pattern continues.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    No.  

     

    Next question. ..

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even at 12M hes a bargain in todays MLB for his production. Have to see how he does this year and how the "kids" develop.

    [/QUOTE]


    How is 12 million for a platoon starter who can not finish the season healty a "bargain"?


    You need to platoon him with another starter and that will run you maybe 20 mil combined. 

    It's time to let someone else deal with Day to Day Clay.......

    [/QUOTE]


    Id take 160IP at 12M for Buch than I would take 180-200 from a lot of other pitchers at the same price.

    Hes at 7.7M this year and coming off a shoulder issue. Getting rid of him now would be beyond stupid.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    How is it misleading? Its a fact, just as its a fact that Ellsbury is injury prone-without assigning blame. He misses a lot of time; thats his history.

    It is a fact that he missed time (from the majors) in those years, but for a very different reason than in 2011/2013. Apples and oranges. That was my point.

    I think he is probably worth what he will make in 2014, but when his contract comes up for renegotiation his absence from work needs to be taken into consideration if this pattern continues.

    Agree. 2014 will be an important year as far as deciding what to do with him as it starts to approach decision time on his contract.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even at 12M hes a bargain in todays MLB for his production. Have to see how he does this year and how the "kids" develop.

    [/QUOTE]

    if Day to Day Clay could pitch a mere 160 IP I'd say keep him.  Of course, (1) he can't and (2) he can not finish a season strong when you need him most.  So even if he gives you 160 you will still need someone to step in for Oct.  Much like Ross did w/ Salty last season.  Day to Day Clay is about to become to first platoon pitcher and earn 12 million.  It's like selling a used car that keeps on breaking down - time to make it someone else's problem now....

    How is 12 million for a platoon starter who can not finish the season healty a "bargain"?


    You need to platoon him with another starter and that will run you maybe 20 mil combined. 

    It's time to let someone else deal with Day to Day Clay.......

    [/QUOTE]


    Id take 160IP at 12M for Buch than I would take 180-200 from a lot of other pitchers at the same price.

    Hes at 7.7M this year and coming off a shoulder issue. Getting rid of him now would be beyond stupid.

    [/QUOTE]


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even at 12M hes a bargain in todays MLB for his production. Have to see how he does this year and how the "kids" develop.

    if Day to Day Clay could pitch a mere 160 IP I'd say keep him.  Of course, (1) he can't and (2) he can not finish a season strong when you need him most.  So even if he gives you 160 you will still need someone to step in for Oct.  Much like Ross did w/ Salty last season.  Day to Day Clay is about to become to first platoon pitcher and earn 12 million.  It's like selling a used car that keeps on breaking down - time to make it someone else's problem now....

    How is 12 million for a platoon starter who can not finish the season healty a "bargain"?


    You need to platoon him with another starter and that will run you maybe 20 mil combined. 

    It's time to let someone else deal with Day to Day Clay.......

    [/QUOTE]


    Id take 160IP at 12M for Buch than I would take 180-200 from a lot of other pitchers at the same price.

    Hes at 7.7M this year and coming off a shoulder issue. Getting rid of him now would be beyond stupid.

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]


    I agree hes been inconsistent the last 4 years, but I think your over exaggerating a bit.

    2010 174IP and pitched through September/Oct

    2011 82IP didnt finish the year

    2012 189IP pitched through Sept/Oct

    2013 108IP didnt finish strong due to fatigue/injury.

    Its more inconsistent because of getting hurt than he cant do it.

    Selling him now coming off a bad year is not smart business. If we look at history, he should have a solid year in 2014 for 7.7M. It would be beyond stupid to try and move Clay right now. We can revisit this at the end of 2014.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    Buchholz makes less than Phil Hughes will in 2014.

     

    And even with 2 serious injjuries, he still has 554IP in the last 4 seasons.  Only 79 pitchers threw more, or less than 3 per team...

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even at 12M hes a bargain in todays MLB for his production. Have to see how he does this year and how the "kids" develop.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    if Day to Day Clay could pitch a mere 160 IP I'd say keep him.  Of course, (1) he can't and (2) he can not finish a season strong when you need him most.  So even if he gives you 160 you will still need someone to step in for Oct.  Much like Ross did w/ Salty last season.  Day to Day Clay is about to become to first platoon pitcher and earn 12 million.  It's like selling a used car that keeps on breaking down - time to make it someone else's problem now....

    How is 12 million for a platoon starter who can not finish the season healty a "bargain"?


    You need to platoon him with another starter and that will run you maybe 20 mil combined. 

    It's time to let someone else deal with Day to Day Clay.......

    [/QUOTE]


    Id take 160IP at 12M for Buch than I would take 180-200 from a lot of other pitchers at the same price.

    Hes at 7.7M this year and coming off a shoulder issue. Getting rid of him now would be beyond stupid.

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]


    I agree hes been inconsistent the last 4 years, but I think your over exaggerating a bit.

    2010 174IP and pitched through September/Oct

    2011 82IP didnt finish the year

    2012 189IP pitched through Sept/Oct

    2013 108IP didnt finish strong due to fatigue/injury.

    Its more inconsistent because of getting hurt than he cant do it.

    Selling him now coming off a bad year is not smart business. If we look at history, he should have a solid year in 2014 for 7.7M. It would be beyond stupid to try and move Clay right now. We can revisit this at the end of 2014.

    [/QUOTE]


    On the other hand, his value may never be higher (esp given his salary goes up after this year)...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even at 12M hes a bargain in todays MLB for his production. Have to see how he does this year and how the "kids" develop.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    if Day to Day Clay could pitch a mere 160 IP I'd say keep him.  Of course, (1) he can't and (2) he can not finish a season strong when you need him most.  So even if he gives you 160 you will still need someone to step in for Oct.  Much like Ross did w/ Salty last season.  Day to Day Clay is about to become to first platoon pitcher and earn 12 million.  It's like selling a used car that keeps on breaking down - time to make it someone else's problem now....

    How is 12 million for a platoon starter who can not finish the season healty a "bargain"?


    You need to platoon him with another starter and that will run you maybe 20 mil combined. 

    It's time to let someone else deal with Day to Day Clay.......

    [/QUOTE]


    Id take 160IP at 12M for Buch than I would take 180-200 from a lot of other pitchers at the same price.

    Hes at 7.7M this year and coming off a shoulder issue. Getting rid of him now would be beyond stupid.

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]


    I agree hes been inconsistent the last 4 years, but I think your over exaggerating a bit.

    2010 174IP and pitched through September/Oct

    2011 82IP didnt finish the year

    2012 189IP pitched through Sept/Oct

    2013 108IP didnt finish strong due to fatigue/injury.

    Its more inconsistent because of getting hurt than he cant do it.

    Selling him now coming off a bad year is not smart business. If we look at history, he should have a solid year in 2014 for 7.7M. It would be beyond stupid to try and move Clay right now. We can revisit this at the end of 2014.

    [/QUOTE]


    On the other hand, his value may never be higher (esp given his salary goes up after this year)...

    [/QUOTE]


    It would be foolish to get rid of him now.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even at 12M hes a bargain in todays MLB for his production. Have to see how he does this year and how the "kids" develop.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    if Day to Day Clay could pitch a mere 160 IP I'd say keep him.  Of course, (1) he can't and (2) he can not finish a season strong when you need him most.  So even if he gives you 160 you will still need someone to step in for Oct.  Much like Ross did w/ Salty last season.  Day to Day Clay is about to become to first platoon pitcher and earn 12 million.  It's like selling a used car that keeps on breaking down - time to make it someone else's problem now....

    How is 12 million for a platoon starter who can not finish the season healty a "bargain"?


    You need to platoon him with another starter and that will run you maybe 20 mil combined. 

    It's time to let someone else deal with Day to Day Clay.......

    [/QUOTE]


    Id take 160IP at 12M for Buch than I would take 180-200 from a lot of other pitchers at the same price.

    Hes at 7.7M this year and coming off a shoulder issue. Getting rid of him now would be beyond stupid.

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]


    I agree hes been inconsistent the last 4 years, but I think your over exaggerating a bit.

    2010 174IP and pitched through September/Oct

    2011 82IP didnt finish the year

    2012 189IP pitched through Sept/Oct

    2013 108IP didnt finish strong due to fatigue/injury.

    Its more inconsistent because of getting hurt than he cant do it.

    Selling him now coming off a bad year is not smart business. If we look at history, he should have a solid year in 2014 for 7.7M. It would be beyond stupid to try and move Clay right now. We can revisit this at the end of 2014.

    [/QUOTE]


    On the other hand, his value may never be higher (esp given his salary goes up after this year)...

    [/QUOTE]


    It would be foolish to get rid of him now.

    [/QUOTE]


    we can revist this

    he had a great record and ERA and he's still affordable and under control

    should we wait for his ERA and w/l record to decline?  and for his price to go up?  and for his # of years under control to go down?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Buchholz makes less than Phil Hughes will in 2014.

     

    And even with 2 serious injjuries, he still has 554IP in the last 4 seasons.  Only 79 pitchers threw more, or less than 3 per team...

    [/QUOTE]

    Thank you.... this ^^^

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to billge's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And you know strange. He was 12 and 1.  Lets trade him and get someone better Sun over yard arm at Fantasy Island.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes. 12-1. In a grand total of 108 innings. He is averaging about 120 innings per year over the six years he has been with the team for any length of time.Here is another guy like Ellsbury: great when he is in the lineup, but not in the lineup enough to qualify as a full time player. Issues like this get addressed when his contract comes up. I would keep him, but if he cannot demonstrate that he is a 200+ IP per year pitcher very soon then he should not be paid like one.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    He spent limited time in the majors in 2008-09 because he was not ready and was sent back to Pawtucket for about a year. Combined between MLB and the minors, he threw 134.2 innings over 26 starts in '08 and 191 over 32 starts in '09.

    Buchholz is a frustrating player who has lost major parts of two of the last four seasons to injuries...but using his major league totals from 08 and 09 to make the case that he is injury-prone is misleading. One might as well say that Jackie Bradley can't stay on the field because he only played 37 games in the majors in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    How is it misleading? Its a fact, just as its a fact that Ellsbury is injury prone-without assigning blame. He misses a lot of time; thats his history. Why should the team offer him full time pay for part time work? Hell, I would have loved to work part time and get a full salary when I was in the work force. I think he is probably worth what he will make in 2014, but when his contract comes up for renegotiation his absence from work needs to be taken into consideration if this pattern continues.

    [/QUOTE]
    Maybe it 'needs' to be, but if history means anything it's not going to be.  Has anyone noticed what "brittle"  Ellsbury just signed for??

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from FL33178. Show FL33178's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    He reminds me of Ellsbury , not Pedroia , in that he will be gone as soon as he is free...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even at 12M hes a bargain in todays MLB for his production. Have to see how he does this year and how the "kids" develop.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    if Day to Day Clay could pitch a mere 160 IP I'd say keep him.  Of course, (1) he can't and (2) he can not finish a season strong when you need him most.  So even if he gives you 160 you will still need someone to step in for Oct.  Much like Ross did w/ Salty last season.  Day to Day Clay is about to become to first platoon pitcher and earn 12 million.  It's like selling a used car that keeps on breaking down - time to make it someone else's problem now....

    How is 12 million for a platoon starter who can not finish the season healty a "bargain"?


    You need to platoon him with another starter and that will run you maybe 20 mil combined. 

    It's time to let someone else deal with Day to Day Clay.......

    [/QUOTE]


    Id take 160IP at 12M for Buch than I would take 180-200 from a lot of other pitchers at the same price.

    Hes at 7.7M this year and coming off a shoulder issue. Getting rid of him now would be beyond stupid.

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]


    I agree hes been inconsistent the last 4 years, but I think your over exaggerating a bit.

    2010 174IP and pitched through September/Oct

    2011 82IP didnt finish the year

    2012 189IP pitched through Sept/Oct

    2013 108IP didnt finish strong due to fatigue/injury.

    Its more inconsistent because of getting hurt than he cant do it.

    Selling him now coming off a bad year is not smart business. If we look at history, he should have a solid year in 2014 for 7.7M. It would be beyond stupid to try and move Clay right now. We can revisit this at the end of 2014.

    [/QUOTE]


    On the other hand, his value may never be higher (esp given his salary goes up after this year)...

    [/QUOTE]


    It would be foolish to get rid of him now.

    [/QUOTE]


    we can revist this

    he had a great record and ERA and he's still affordable and under control

    should we wait for his ERA and w/l record to decline?  and for his price to go up?  and for his # of years under control to go down?

    [/QUOTE]


    we can figure that out and have a better idea after 2014. he will still have 3 years of control at a fair price.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to billge's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And you know strange. He was 12 and 1.  Lets trade him and get someone better Sun over yard arm at Fantasy Island.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes. 12-1. In a grand total of 108 innings. He is averaging about 120 innings per year over the six years he has been with the team for any length of time.Here is another guy like Ellsbury: great when he is in the lineup, but not in the lineup enough to qualify as a full time player. Issues like this get addressed when his contract comes up. I would keep him, but if he cannot demonstrate that he is a 200+ IP per year pitcher very soon then he should not be paid like one.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    He spent limited time in the majors in 2008-09 because he was not ready and was sent back to Pawtucket for about a year. Combined between MLB and the minors, he threw 134.2 innings over 26 starts in '08 and 191 over 32 starts in '09.

    Buchholz is a frustrating player who has lost major parts of two of the last four seasons to injuries...but using his major league totals from 08 and 09 to make the case that he is injury-prone is misleading. One might as well say that Jackie Bradley can't stay on the field because he only played 37 games in the majors in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    How is it misleading? Its a fact, just as its a fact that Ellsbury is injury prone-without assigning blame. He misses a lot of time; thats his history. Why should the team offer him full time pay for part time work? Hell, I would have loved to work part time and get a full salary when I was in the work force. I think he is probably worth what he will make in 2014, but when his contract comes up for renegotiation his absence from work needs to be taken into consideration if this pattern continues.

    [/QUOTE]
    Maybe it 'needs' to be, but if history means anything it's not going to be.  Has anyone noticed what "brittle"  Ellsbury just signed for??

    [/QUOTE]


    Some people just dont realize what teams will pay for players and how they actually evaluate them. Some may not like it, but it is what it is...

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    I need starters who are more reliable than Day to Day Clay; it's that simple

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even at 12M hes a bargain in todays MLB for his production. Have to see how he does this year and how the "kids" develop.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    if Day to Day Clay could pitch a mere 160 IP I'd say keep him.  Of course, (1) he can't and (2) he can not finish a season strong when you need him most.  So even if he gives you 160 you will still need someone to step in for Oct.  Much like Ross did w/ Salty last season.  Day to Day Clay is about to become to first platoon pitcher and earn 12 million.  It's like selling a used car that keeps on breaking down - time to make it someone else's problem now....

    How is 12 million for a platoon starter who can not finish the season healty a "bargain"?


    You need to platoon him with another starter and that will run you maybe 20 mil combined. 

    It's time to let someone else deal with Day to Day Clay.......

    [/QUOTE]


    Id take 160IP at 12M for Buch than I would take 180-200 from a lot of other pitchers at the same price.

    Hes at 7.7M this year and coming off a shoulder issue. Getting rid of him now would be beyond stupid.

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]


    I agree hes been inconsistent the last 4 years, but I think your over exaggerating a bit.

    2010 174IP and pitched through September/Oct

    2011 82IP didnt finish the year

    2012 189IP pitched through Sept/Oct

    2013 108IP didnt finish strong due to fatigue/injury.

    Its more inconsistent because of getting hurt than he cant do it.

    Selling him now coming off a bad year is not smart business. If we look at history, he should have a solid year in 2014 for 7.7M. It would be beyond stupid to try and move Clay right now. We can revisit this at the end of 2014.

    [/QUOTE]


    On the other hand, his value may never be higher (esp given his salary goes up after this year)...

    [/QUOTE]


    It would be foolish to get rid of him now.

    [/QUOTE]

    In what context? If we could haul in more than he is worth is it still foolish? Saying you would not trade a player in a vacumn is meaningless. That said, the likelihood of being able to get the better of the deal if Buchholz is traded is pretty low.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to billge's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And you know strange. He was 12 and 1.  Lets trade him and get someone better Sun over yard arm at Fantasy Island.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes. 12-1. In a grand total of 108 innings. He is averaging about 120 innings per year over the six years he has been with the team for any length of time.Here is another guy like Ellsbury: great when he is in the lineup, but not in the lineup enough to qualify as a full time player. Issues like this get addressed when his contract comes up. I would keep him, but if he cannot demonstrate that he is a 200+ IP per year pitcher very soon then he should not be paid like one.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    He spent limited time in the majors in 2008-09 because he was not ready and was sent back to Pawtucket for about a year. Combined between MLB and the minors, he threw 134.2 innings over 26 starts in '08 and 191 over 32 starts in '09.

    Buchholz is a frustrating player who has lost major parts of two of the last four seasons to injuries...but using his major league totals from 08 and 09 to make the case that he is injury-prone is misleading. One might as well say that Jackie Bradley can't stay on the field because he only played 37 games in the majors in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    How is it misleading? Its a fact, just as its a fact that Ellsbury is injury prone-without assigning blame. He misses a lot of time; thats his history. Why should the team offer him full time pay for part time work? Hell, I would have loved to work part time and get a full salary when I was in the work force. I think he is probably worth what he will make in 2014, but when his contract comes up for renegotiation his absence from work needs to be taken into consideration if this pattern continues.

    [/QUOTE]
    Maybe it 'needs' to be, but if history means anything it's not going to be.  Has anyone noticed what "brittle"  Ellsbury just signed for??

    [/QUOTE]

    I think most people here believe that the Ellsbury contract is absurd. Even his most ardent supporters here, or at least some of them such as SP, think the kind of contract he got was out of line with his true value. You didn't see the Red Sox making that kind of offer, fortunately. They were smarter than that. And if Buchholz cannot solve his injury issues he will also be offered a contract commensurate with his real value to the team when it comes up for renegotiation.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to billge's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And you know strange. He was 12 and 1.  Lets trade him and get someone better Sun over yard arm at Fantasy Island.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes. 12-1. In a grand total of 108 innings. He is averaging about 120 innings per year over the six years he has been with the team for any length of time.Here is another guy like Ellsbury: great when he is in the lineup, but not in the lineup enough to qualify as a full time player. Issues like this get addressed when his contract comes up. I would keep him, but if he cannot demonstrate that he is a 200+ IP per year pitcher very soon then he should not be paid like one.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    He spent limited time in the majors in 2008-09 because he was not ready and was sent back to Pawtucket for about a year. Combined between MLB and the minors, he threw 134.2 innings over 26 starts in '08 and 191 over 32 starts in '09.

    Buchholz is a frustrating player who has lost major parts of two of the last four seasons to injuries...but using his major league totals from 08 and 09 to make the case that he is injury-prone is misleading. One might as well say that Jackie Bradley can't stay on the field because he only played 37 games in the majors in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    How is it misleading? Its a fact, just as its a fact that Ellsbury is injury prone-without assigning blame. He misses a lot of time; thats his history. Why should the team offer him full time pay for part time work? Hell, I would have loved to work part time and get a full salary when I was in the work force. I think he is probably worth what he will make in 2014, but when his contract comes up for renegotiation his absence from work needs to be taken into consideration if this pattern continues.

    [/QUOTE]
    Maybe it 'needs' to be, but if history means anything it's not going to be.  Has anyone noticed what "brittle"  Ellsbury just signed for??

    [/QUOTE]

    I think most people here believe that the Ellsbury contract is absurd. Even his most ardent supporters here, or at least some of them such as SP, think the kind of contract he got was out of line with his true value. You didn't see the Red Sox making that kind of offer, fortunately. They were smarter than that. And if Buchholz cannot solve his injury issues he will also be offered a contract commensurate with his real value to the team when it comes up for renegotiation.

    [/QUOTE]
    I'd be the first to agree that the Ellsbury contract is absurd.  As much as I enjoyed watching they guy and as much as I appreciate what he brought to the team there's NO WAY I'd want the Sox paying him what the Yankees are. 

    However, his contract does reinforce the point that there are GM's who will be optimistic and believe that those years in which he was injured were anomalies and they'll offer big money in the hope that those years don't happen again.  The same thing will happen with Buchholz.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to billge's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And you know strange. He was 12 and 1.  Lets trade him and get someone better Sun over yard arm at Fantasy Island.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes. 12-1. In a grand total of 108 innings. He is averaging about 120 innings per year over the six years he has been with the team for any length of time.Here is another guy like Ellsbury: great when he is in the lineup, but not in the lineup enough to qualify as a full time player. Issues like this get addressed when his contract comes up. I would keep him, but if he cannot demonstrate that he is a 200+ IP per year pitcher very soon then he should not be paid like one.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    He spent limited time in the majors in 2008-09 because he was not ready and was sent back to Pawtucket for about a year. Combined between MLB and the minors, he threw 134.2 innings over 26 starts in '08 and 191 over 32 starts in '09.

    Buchholz is a frustrating player who has lost major parts of two of the last four seasons to injuries...but using his major league totals from 08 and 09 to make the case that he is injury-prone is misleading. One might as well say that Jackie Bradley can't stay on the field because he only played 37 games in the majors in 2013.

    [/QUOTE]

    How is it misleading? Its a fact, just as its a fact that Ellsbury is injury prone-without assigning blame. He misses a lot of time; thats his history. Why should the team offer him full time pay for part time work? Hell, I would have loved to work part time and get a full salary when I was in the work force. I think he is probably worth what he will make in 2014, but when his contract comes up for renegotiation his absence from work needs to be taken into consideration if this pattern continues.

    [/QUOTE]
    Maybe it 'needs' to be, but if history means anything it's not going to be.  Has anyone noticed what "brittle"  Ellsbury just signed for??

    [/QUOTE]

    I think most people here believe that the Ellsbury contract is absurd. Even his most ardent supporters here, or at least some of them such as SP, think the kind of contract he got was out of line with his true value. You didn't see the Red Sox making that kind of offer, fortunately. They were smarter than that. And if Buchholz cannot solve his injury issues he will also be offered a contract commensurate with his real value to the team when it comes up for renegotiation.

    [/QUOTE]
    I'd be the first to agree that the Ellsbury contract is absurd.  As much as I enjoyed watching they guy and as much as I appreciate what he brought to the team there's NO WAY I'd want the Sox paying him what the Yankees are. 

    However, his contract does reinforce the point that there are GM's who will be optimistic and believe that those years in which he was injured were anomalies and they'll offer big money in the hope that those years don't happen again.  The same thing will happen with Buchholz.

    [/QUOTE]

    You know what? As long as the GM is not the GM of the Boston Red Sox, I think thats just great for guys like Ellsbury and Buchholz. The fact that other GMs are willing to make the kind of colossal blunders that hamstring a team financially for 7-10 years does not make it any less of a mistake. As you said, Ellsbury's contract is absurd. I agree with you: some idiot GM will probably hurt his club by giving Buchholz more than he is worth. When that happens the Red Sox gain ground on that team.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    I've got to admit it - Day to Day Clay is a catchy nickname and I kinda like it.  However, that doesn't mean I want to get rid of him. 

    $7.7M is a lot for a player who only starts 16 games in a year (2013) regardless of his ERA but it's chicken feed for a guy who starts 28 games a year (2010) and is even cheap for a guy who is going to start his personal average of 22 games a year (2010-2013).  Especially if he continues to have a 4-year average of 3.02 ERA. 

    I'll take 22 starts a year with a 3.02 ERA for $7.7M every day - and twice on Sunday.  

    Can he replicate that?  I dunno.  You dunno.  But for $7.7M which is about half of what Peavy and Dempster are each getting I think it's a good gamble.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: Should BEN look to move Clay Buchholz ??????

    If we look to our other successful organizations that operate on a budget, the Rays and the A's we can learn a thing or two.  First of all, they trade a player when his value is high in order to pry away a top starting pitching prospect from another team.

    A good example of this are the rumors of Price being shopped for a pitcher like Taijuan Walker.  Now I'm not saying that Clay isn't without an amazing amount of talent, but it has to be fully understood that he will always be an injury risk.  It is drastically higher for him than most pitchers his age IMO.  He had good enough numbers this year that a team that is serious about getting an ace level pitcher would be interested and would pay a king's randsom.

    The initial reaction that I had when contemplating this was of a negative nature.  After sitting on it for a little bit, I'm thinking that this would be the best course of action for a smart team that is looking to improve the long term health of the team.

    Clay is cheap enough now that he won't make us give money back in a deal and he is signed to a very friendly team contract.  If the return for Clay was Taijuan Walker or Stanton who would fill a need for years to come at less money initially... would you consider it?  Think about it... Price is only controlled for two more years.  Clay is on a team friendly deal until 2017 and could be viewed as an ace to build a team around.  I could see a very real interest from the Mariners and D-Backs... not to mention the Angels and Dodgers. 

    Clay has me severely concerned over his long term health as well as many other fans.  I think in this case, where there is smoke, there might actually be fire.  I know Pedro was always dissed for having a body that wouldn't hold up to the rigors of MLB pitching, but I am drastically more concerned with Clay's long term outlook.  The dude looks like a meth head, he is so skinny.  He has had some really odd medical problems and does not pitch well when he is not 100%. 

    The fact that the Sox medical staff was never able to find the problem with Clay's neck/shoulder/lat or whatever his problem was has me really worried.  Some guys can pitch well when they don't have their best stuff and besides the playoffs this year in a small sample size, I have yet to see the same with Clay.

    We won a world series this year in spite of Clay being down all year.  We were consistent enough to never lose 3 games in a row all year because we had consistent starters who took their turn.  Besides Clay, we were very lucky and healthy on the most part with our starters.  I would rather take his money and invest it into Lester long term to be honest.

    So don't shoot me, but if Ben had the marbles to make the Punto trade... I think he has them to make a Clay trade while his value is at an all time high.  I also think that he should do that move if it is available and makes this team stronger in the long run.

     
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