Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from fir.eballer58. Show fir.eballer58's posts

    Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    by Nick Cafardo/Boston Globe

    To this day, many of his friends remain loyal to Roger Clemens.

    “Roger has always maintained that he never took steroids. He insists he didn’t and that when all is said and done, he’ll prove it,’’ said one of his Boston-area friends, who remains in close contact with the former Red Sox great. “Until I have reason to think otherwise I will believe him and root for him every step of the way. He’s done so much good for people that it makes me upset to think he has to go through this.’’

    Clemens, who still makes his main residence in Houston, will begin defense of his reputation in US District Court in Washington starting Wednesday. Congress indicted Clemens on perjury charges, claiming he lied at hearings in 2008 when he testified that he had never taken steroids or human growth hormone.

    Reputation may not be Clemens’s only concern. He is also facing a possible prison sentence if convicted.

    A common discussion among baseball people is that the government is wasting its time and money going after a professional athlete over these charges, and that Clemens is being made an example of since so many other baseball players have skated without punishment.

    That aspect is the part that appears most unfair to some baseball people, though granted, those players who got away with taking performance-enhancing drugs didn’t testify under oath before Congress, as did Clemens.

    The government is using the platform to make two major points - that you don’t lie to Congress under oath, and that public scrutiny of the case will further dissuade and perhaps put an end to PEDs in all sports and for youngsters thinking about using them.

    Whether Clemens, one of 85 players mentioned in the Mitchell Report, took them doesn’t change the fact that he was a Hall of Fame talent.

    All you had to do was watch him. Same holds true for Barry Bonds, who was one of the best hitters of our lifetime. Same for Pete Rose, the all-time hits leader, who has not gotten into the Hall because he bet on baseball.

    There’s a school of thought that their entire careers were enhanced and their numbers should not count heavily in Hall consideration, but if you also think that a majority of players took steroids in this era - which spanned from circa 1988-2003 - then you must also agree that the playing field was fair.

    If you believe steroid use wasn’t as rampant as that, and that it was confined to a select few, then your case that Clemens’s or Bonds’s inflated numbers should never be heralded for entrance into Cooperstown has merit.

    The steroid users caught by Mitchell investigators - mostly as a result of testimony by Brian McNamee and former Mets clubhouse employee Kirk Radomski - played during a time when there were no penalties or consequences for such activity. It wasn’t until the Players Association and Major League Baseball made a deal that if there were more than 5 percent positive tests from a random 2003 testing, punishment would take effect the following season.

    The random testing produced more than 100 positive tests, and a strict policy and penalties were implemented in 2004. Players who tested positive after the policy was in place - Manny Ramirez (twice) and Rafael Palmeiro - will likely never get into the Hall of Fame despite outstanding numbers.

    The main source for Clemens’s problems is his former trainer, McNamee, who supplied George Mitchell with information about Clemens and avoided prison time by squealing on his former friend. Clemens’s defense team sees McNamee’s questionable reputation as a possible launching point for acquittal.

    McNamee has said that he injected Clemens with steroids and HGH in 1998, 2000, and 2001. Clemens’s attorneys are expected to ask Mitchell to testify and grill him on how he and his investigators questioned the witnesses who came forward. The defense will try to discredit McNamee’s information, which pointed the finger at Clemens and led to him being named 82 times in the Mitchell Report. The prosecution is likely to call several players who have admitted to PED use, including Clemens’s longtime friend, Andy Pettitte, who is retired from baseball. Pettitte admitted to HGH use and apologized publicly. According to the Associated Press, there’s also one player who will testify who made the decision not to take PEDs.

    The Clemens legal team, led by Rusty Hardin, is also expected to go after Jeff Novitzky, the special agent of the Food and Drug Administration who got McNamee to become a government witness. Novitzky has also led the charge on the Lance Armstrong front, trying to prove that the cycling star also took steroids.

    What this proceeding will do is confirm whether Clemens is indeed the Texas Con Man, as the late Will McDonough portrayed him even before allegations of steroid use. The best Clemens can hope for is that his lawyers can maneuver him out of this predicament.

    It’s too bad, because in the 13 years this reporter covered Clemens’s career, the pure talent, drive, desire, and insatiable appetite he had to be great was off the charts. But his reputation will never be shiny again.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    read my forehead
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    http://users.elite.net/runner/jennifers/no.htm
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    Surprised there aren't many posts on this thread.  I thought it would be a touchy subject.  Let me preface my remarks by saying I am not a Roger Clemens fan.  Even when he was with the Sox, I always felt that a pitcher like Dave Stewart was more reliable in the big moment.  The fact that the Sox were 1-4 in his playoff starts bares that out. 

    That being said, if you accept the fact that he took steroids in 1998, and even assume 1997 (his first year in Toronto when he "found it" again) and only look at his Sox years, then he was still a Hall-of-Famer.  For the Sox he was 192-111 with a 3.06 ERA.  An ERA+ of 145.  He won 3 Cy Youngs and finished 2nd once, 3rd once, and 6th once.  He won an MVP and finished in the top 10 3 other times.  He won 20 games 3 times and led the league in strikeouts 3 times, ERA 4 times and shutouts 5 times.  Plus he struck out 20 batters in a game twice.  From 1986 to 1992 he was one of if not the best pitcher in the league.  And though his record was poor in 1996 (10-13) he still was better than average with an ERA of 3.63 and an ERA+ of 139.  I think if he retired after 1996 he would have been elected into the Hall. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jaytf25. Show jaytf25's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    I say yes. Even though he is a first class jerk, I think it's what you do on the field. If Clemens doesn't get in then niether does Manny or Bonds or Sosa or A-Rod, etc.......He is the best pitcher from the mid 80's on. Maddux was fantastic but he didn't have the power pitches that Clemens had. Note: Shoeless Joe should be in the HOF also if they put Rose in.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    jay, I think you will find that none of those players mentioned will get in, at least not for a long while.  But of them (Clemens included), only Ramirez was caught after the ban was in place.  Yes, I know, it doesn't mean they were not still cheating, just didn't get caught, but I give them the benefit of the doubt there.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    I don't really care anymore. However, If one gets in, they all should get in. That includes A-Rod, Clemens, Bonds and Manny. Pete Rose should get in as a player, at the very least (whole 'nother issue). The Hall of Fame shouldn't be confused with the "Nicest Player to Ever Live" Award. All five players I just mentioned are highly delusional, complete major league @$$hole$, with Snookie-sized egos. Life's only fair until it isn't. If Clemens is found to have lied under oath and gets sentenced, then so be it. Either way, my opinion of his "reputation" as a professional athlete and as a person won't change. Unless somehow he performs open heart surgery with a bic pen and superglue, to some dying person in the courtroom and it's documented with real witnesses (including the judge), HD video, and of course, a stenographer. Until then... He's just another queef in a long line of repetitive queefs.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    At first, I thought if you can separate what you do 'ON THE FIELD' from off the field and from steroid-use on the field during a certain timeframe, you can justify Hall of Fame status. Then I thought about it. Here's what I believe has to be done: You can't allow cheaters (I don't call Gaylord Perry a cheater, just a guy who hid his ball-altering skills from the umpires, as did many old-school pitchers who doctored the ball before him). I'm talking about physical enhancement from substances that alter your physical strength in an abnormal or fast manner. So anyone who took performance enhancers such as HGH, hormones, Clear, anabolic steriods should not get in...no matter what.

    How do you prove who took them? You can't except those who have been caught doing so. So basically you can make assumptions about Piazza, Clemens, Bonds, etc. You are forced to, and if that makes it wrong to exclude people who "might have done them" tough turkey. There just aren't a lot of guys who go from skinny to bulky in 0.5 seconds the way they have in MLB. So many guys and so many career stat jumps.

    Manny Ramirez is my favorite player in the last 20 years. Roger Clemens probably my favorite pitcher. I don't think either deserve HOF status anymore. if this was about "WHAT THEY DID ON THE FIELD," then Pete Rose should have been in the Hall years and years ago. But he's not, and his own teammates don't want him in based on his gambling issues and lying about his gambling, which made him illegal based on rules set forth. I actually think Pete Rose has to be given Hall status before any steroid era player. In fact, Rose is better than those players from the steroid era as far as qualifications for the Hall. If character means anything, there are several current HOF guys who may not be the best persons entered. But you can't do anything about the past HOF selections. So in closing, fix a wrong by putting in Pete Rose. And still no Rocket, no Bonds, no Manny, no Rafael Palmeiro, none of those cheaters.

    And I still think it's possible Manny never used them prior to his Dodgers stint. It's really hard to tell, but he also changed in physique from a skinny guy with Indians. It's possible he started on them when he joined Sox. Don't know.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    I still believe Manny to be the best righthanded hitter I've ever seen in person.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    Roger is a pathological liar. John McNamara may have sealed his fate with the differing views of his removal from Game 6, 1986. What reason would McNamara have for lying to the media about whys and wants of pulling guys. I don't think a manager in MLB history has ever not volunteered his reasons for decision making in the biggest games. Some volunteer more information than needed. However, McNamara completely differed from what Rocket said. Rocket is a liar, first and foremost. He lost all creditability first with the Piazza bat throwing incident, then throwing his own wife under a bus at the congressional hearing. She took the steroids, but not him. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Wonder how Rocket's kids thought of him when he didn't protect their mother from scrutiny.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens be voted into the Hall Of Fame?Clemens’s reputation goes on trial this week

    by the way, you can be a pathological liar and still be a good person. It's not about that, it's about when the lies catch up to you. It's on the liar.
     
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