Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    MLB was not complicitous during the PED era. The MLBPA is totally responsible for refusing to allow drug testing. They still refuse to allow testing for HGH and other designer PED's.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    It most certainly wasn't. The MLBPA refused to allow any rules against PED's, until public pressure forced them to make a token concession. MLBPA membership percentages still doping up on PED's is most suredly quite high. They refuse to allow testing for HGH and other designer PED's.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]It most certainly wasn't. The MLBPA refused to allow any rules against PED's, until public pressure forced them to make a token concession. MLBPA membership percentages still doping up on PED's is most suredly quite high. They refuse to allow testing for HGH and other designer PED's.
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]
    Not disputing any of that, but MLB provided no leadership on this. And showed no stones.
    (No idea what happened to my previous post, to which I assume you were responding).
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In my opinion for the most part it is matter of judging just how good the player was and let the era speak for itself.

    I am no fan of Roger Clemens and how he handled this situation. But his achievements within the era are extrordinary and he should be admitted IMo as should Bonds.

    Manny Ramirez (who I am a fan of) is a different kettle of fish. His transgressions spilled over into the post steroid era and not just once but twice.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]In my opinion for the most part it is matter of judging just how good the player was and let the era speak for itself. I am no fan of Roger Clemens and how he handled this situation. But his achievements within the era are extrordinary and he should be admitted IMo as should Bonds. Manny Ramirez (who I am a fan of) is a different kettle of fish. His transgressions spilled over into the post steroid era and not just once but twice.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Manny is interesting because he was so bad at hiding his PED use, that I'm inclined to believe he was not using for most of his career.  The stats bear that out - sustained excellence for many years, a dip toward the end of his career, followed by a short period of ridiculous numbers.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame? : Manny is interesting because he was so bad at hiding his PED use, that I'm inclined to believe he was not using for most of his career.  The stats bear that out - sustained excellence for many years, a dip toward the end of his career, followed by a short period of ridiculous numbers.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    this is the line of thinking i want to believe ... perhaps with a total blind-eye toward likely reality ... but thats what i'm going with, and sticking by.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from JustPlayTheGame. Show JustPlayTheGame's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    You are a freaking idiot.

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]Should Charles Manson be re-introduced as a contributing member of public society?
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    They should build a hall of shame and put it next to the hall of fame and put all of these players in there. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from brianeno. Show brianeno's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    yes, if he has $15.00* for a ticket.

    *guessing on price.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame? : Manny is interesting because he was so bad at hiding his PED use, that I'm inclined to believe he was not using for most of his career.  The stats bear that out - sustained excellence for many years, a dip toward the end of his career, followed by a short period of ridiculous numbers.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]Even if you believe that, the thing with Manny was he was caught twice in the post steroid era. It is different in my view than the era where while still against the rules, there was no enforcement and the usage was wide spread.

    His actions were total disregard for the system and the game. I enjoyed this players career immensely but it was his selfish streak at its worst and it will and should be held against him and in a different light than guys who tested positive in the 2003 "confidential" testing that has been leaked piece-meal.

    A clear line was drawn in the sand when the CBA was modified to include testing and Manny crossed it not once but twice. He metaphorically spit on the game IMO. 

    Back to Clemens, he put the spotlight on himself suing his former trainer. He made this a lot more complicated than it had to be. Outside of Boston the ill will that has always fueled the Bonds issue did not exist, Roger changed that himself. Sad really. Just the same he was the best of his generation and like Bonds with or without PEDs was going to a HOF career.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]Let's also put everyone who buys lottery tickets in prison camps. There will be alot less traffic on the streets for my morning commute. Of course, there won't be any customers to sell to either. Pete Rose lives in a country that "glorifies" gambling, then slaps them down if they gamble. Pete's biggest mistake was not doing the "legal" kind of gambling. The one where the government runs the show and gets the winnings. We were told not to gamble and use drugs. We were told to stay clear of loansharks.  But look at modern times, drug companies are advertising on T.V., the governmenet runs lotteries and the big banks are essentially loansharks. No wonder organized crime is fading away, legit companies are squeezing them out.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]


    as always an entertaining post zill

    but rose's biggest mistake was betting on baseball

    followed by not fessing up to it

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    until he was trying the make money selling his book.Money mouth

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?


    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]Roger Clemens is absolutely a hall of famer.  The hall of fame is not a trial, it is a record of baseball history and Clemens was one of the great pitchers of his generation and of all time. I really think it is a shame that all these writers have apparently appointed themselves as the moral gate keepers of the hall, when that is not their job.  There is no way that Clemens, Bonds, Arod, Manny, etc... should be left out. To the earlier point on Bagwell, it is a travesty that it has gotten to that point.  Where a guy who has never been officially linked is excluded based on suspicion.  I've stated this on these steroid threads before but I believe that there are already PED users in the hall.  Take a look at Rickey Henderson in 1990 and in 2002.  Not to mention that Rickey was on a team with Jose and Big Mac. I don't think Bagwell is more suspicious than Roberto Alomar, whose inclusion I fully support.   Plenty of guys have been busted who don't fit the typical Juicer profile (Matt Lawton, Rafael Betencourt, etc...) so for these voters to pick and choose who they assume used PED's based on body type or HR numbers is irresponsible and truthfully discredits the whole process. 
    Posted by Calmy[/QUOTE]



    I agree,and expect things to change as the older writers retire and

    the next generation looks at it less emotionally

    IMO they will get in eventually
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    read my forehead
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]until he was trying the make money selling his book.
    Posted by J-BAY[/QUOTE]

    Or sell some baseballs



     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Calmy-"all these writers have apparently appointed themselves moral gatekeepers of the hall"

    Wish I had thought of that line.

    Excellent! Another example of how much these sportwriters consider themelves "high and mighty" and smug about it, is when you watch those sportstalk shows on ESPN , how they all talk as if they are authorities on sports. I have two eyes , I can see what they see, but they have to tiptoe around issues with the players while they are in the game...to get interviews. After the players retire, they aren't afraid to knock them down. They make me want to vomit sometimes, it's so obvious.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

     Pete's biggest mistake was not doing the "legal" kind of gambling.

    Pete Rose's biggest mistake was betting on this own team.  It was bad enough that he bet on baseball, but he bet on games being played by a team he controlled.

    He's argued that he never bet against his team.  Fine.  But did a bet he made or considered making ever impact how he managed?  Did he bring out his closer for the 3rd game in a row when he normally would have let himn sit?  Did he ever treat a game like it was game 7 of the WS because he had a bet on it?  Did he ever manage a game in way that caused them to lose the next game or at least be less prepared?  Did he have his closer sit a game because Rose wanted to make sure he was ready for the next game, a game he intended to bet on?

    Betting on Baseball by a manager is so bad.



     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Clemens, P.E.D.itte, and ARoids all have zero chance....ARoids could hit 1,000 HR's and earn another half a bil - ain't happening......Amen.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Natick-Ned. Show Natick-Ned's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Zillagod wants all the cheaters to have placques on the wall in Cooperstown. That is fine but when you walk past them with your ten year old son you will need to tell them that:

    This one cheated by using steroids.
    This player cheated using PEDs.
    This one used HGH.
    This clown betted on baseball games.
    This one was a liar and beat his wife.
    This one used corked bats.
    This one threw a spitball.
    This one beat up rookies for talking to him.
    This one slept with teammates' wives
    This one was paid to throw a series.
    Finally you find one player who was honest and deserving of total respect.

    Yes put all of the no-good scoundrels into the HOF
    Just bring your notebook with you so you can inform your son which players were nice enough to invite over to your house for Thanksgiving dinner.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikeyinthebronx. Show mikeyinthebronx's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]Clemens, P.E.D.itte, and ARoids all have zero chance....ARoids could hit 1,000 HR's and earn another half a bil - ain't happening......Amen.
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    Arod is going in and yet Manny won't.  There is hypocricy involved in all of this, the more I think of it.  Clemens may not but yet I think many expect Arod will and he most likely will get in but Manny won't based on the amount of times he got caught I think there is something wrong with that.  If Arod gets in I think Manny should too, the guy was the most clutch hitter I ever saw, whether on roids or not, he surely faced pitchers on steroids too.  I don't know how to judge any of this stuff.

    I know Jeter and Mariano are getting in and those are the ones that I'll make the trip to Cooperstown for the inductions not Arod.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dangerfeld. Show Dangerfeld's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    The criteria that are used to select players for the HOF aren't actually written down anywhere and most probably vary from writer to writer who get to vote. It is quite subjective however it is not only based on statistics but includes moral character. Otherwise a software program could be written to determine who is selected. I like it the way that it is now. Not everyone will agree but then some people think that Donald Trump is a better person than Ghandi.
     
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