Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from -EdithBunker-. Show -EdithBunker-'s posts

    Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    NESN:
    Red Sox fans may have some mixed emotions on Friday, as April 29, 2011 marks the 25th anniversary of Roger Clemens' first 20-strikeout performance.

    Clemens became the first pitcher to record 20 K's in a nine-inning game when he defeated the Mariners at Fenway Park on April 29, 1986. He'd accomplish the feat again 10 years later, against the Tigers in Detroit.

    Since leaving Boston in the offseason following his second 20-strikeout performance, Clemens bagged four Cy Young Awards, six All-Star Game invites and a pair of World Series rings. The Rocket, who had six 20-win seasons, has also been accused of steroid use, and many believe he doesn't deserve to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame because of it.

    Clemens is set to go on trial in July, facing three counts of making false statements, two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of Congress.

    Should Clemens, who owns a 354-184 career record to go with a 3.12 ERA, be accepted into the Hall of Fame?

    Should Roger Clemens get into the Baseball Hall of Fame?
    Yes
    No
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Roger is dead meat as a Hall of Fame candidate.  Mind you he has lots of big-name company now.  Just a sad state of affairs.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikeyinthebronx. Show mikeyinthebronx's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Absolutely not.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Not without buying a ticket.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    I go back and forth. One one hand, he was one of the greatest pitchers in the game's history. Struck out 20 batters in a single game twice! I have no doubt he was using PEDs later in his career, but again MLB had no policy against them at the time. Much like Barry Bonds.

    On the other hand, he's a lying, hypocritical, contemptible dee-bag.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from piersall. Show piersall's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?




    Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?


    Clemens is set to go on trial in July, facing three counts of making false statements, two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of Congress


    Depends on the outcome of the trial.  If guilty, he's out, if innocent of all charges, he's in.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]I go back and forth. One one hand, he was one of the greatest pitchers in the game's history. Struck out 20 batters in a single game twice! I have no doubt he was using PEDs later in his career, but again MLB had no policy against them at the time. Much like Barry Bonds. On the other hand, he's a lying, hypocritical, contemptible dee-bag.
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]
     lloyd - london calling, best album cover ever?  spaceman says yes.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kbev97. Show kbev97's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    This thread won't be very exciting for Mikey, Babe, Pinstripezac, and Jessey since most of RSN agrees with them. Edith will need to start better threads that will start a pizzing contest.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Yes.  It's almost certain that he would have had a HOF-worthy resume without the PED use.  What are you going to do - only admit players who have never been implicated and hope that they did not just fly under the radar?  What if you use that criteria to induct a Jim Thome, and 10 years from now his name is leaked from the 2003 list?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    I think he should get in on personality alone.

    He'll get in eventually.  He deserves it.  Even though as a person he seems pretty reprehensible.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    If they don't let in the PED users of the last 2 decades people in the future will think baseball didn't exist from 1986 to 2010.

    This era of baseball may not have been the best , probably wasn't the worst, but what a huge void in the history of the game if all the great players from this era are omitted.

    The Dark Ages was an awful time in our world history as was World War II, do the history books omit the "bad" history? If they did there wouldn't be much to tell. People in the future have the right to know about the good the bad and the ugly of baseball. The players could be put in with a side note saying they were very good , "but their stats were likely enhanced by using supplements not approved by the league." Or something like that. Either that or have a separate wing dedicated to those who have been caught and those who were suspected. Just don't leave them out, it would be a shame to pretend that these players while dishonest did not have an effect on the games. The games still counted , in many cases both batter and pitcher were guilty , so who really had the upper hand?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]Roger is dead meat as a Hall of Fame candidate.  Mind you he has lots of big-name company now.  Just a sad state of affairs.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    True, but he absolutely belongs.  We don't know the extent of his steroid use.  We can only speculate based on evidence provided by a questionable individual.  (Note: I believe he did use them.)  Still, from 1986-1992, a time he supposedly was not using steroids, he was easily the best pitcher in baseball--by a mile.  The problem with the steroid issue is that it's being dealt with emotionally, not rationally.  If people took a step back and thought it out logically, I'm sure their answer to this question would be different--I hope.  The BBWAA is using their HoF votes as a soap box to judge a group of players they stood by and watched use steroids.  They had the opportunity to break the story, but most of them chose not to because they were afraid they'd lose their press credentials and access to the players/team if they didn't.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]If they don't let in the PED users of the last 2 decades people in the future will think baseball didn't exist from 1986 to 2010. This era of baseball may not have been the best , probably wasn't the worst, but what a huge void in the history of the game if all the great players from this era are omitted. The Dark Ages was an awful time in our world history as was World War II, do the history books omit the "bad" history? If they did there wouldn't be much to tell. People in the future have the right to know about the good the bad and the ugly of baseball. The players could be put in with a side note saying they were very good , "but their stats were likely enhanced by using supplements not approved by the league." Or something like that. Either that or have a separate wing dedicated to those who have been caught and those who were suspected. Just don't leave them out, it would be a shame to pretend that these players while dishonest did not have an effect on the games. The games still counted , in many cases both batter and pitcher were guilty , so who really had the upper hand?
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    Tremendous post Zilla!  Plus, the writers are picking and choosing who they think did and did not use steroids in many cases.  Jeff Bagwell only got 40% of the vote this year because of unfounded speculation.  Greg Maddux will likely float in because he doesn't look like he did steroids.  Both of those assumptions may be true, but they may be false.  We've allowed players who used amphetimines into the HoF, and those are also PEDs as well.  They don't build muscle, but they do provide an extra boost of energy. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Roger should get in, but he should have to go in wearing a lab coat and a hat with a syringe icon on it.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame? :  lloyd - london calling, best album cover ever?  spaceman says yes.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    Absolutely!!!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Based on the McGwire and Palmiero votes, I'd say no.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    I guess Derek Lowe's DUI will keep him out , too.

    Not like he really had a chance anyway.

    But I am glad you agree redsoxfan791, many players will likely be skipped over just because writers "think" they were cheating.

    Gaylord Perry was elected in 1991, the SOB was loading the ball with vaseline...and everybody knows it!

    Kenny Rogers was a known culprit of doctoring balls, but he doesn't get the bad press like Clemens...it really is the same thing, illegally trying to  gain an edge.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Great points Zilla. And by the same token, I always joke that Pete Rose should be allowed in as long as he never bet against his team.

    In the 19teens, baseball was rife with gamblers. But only the Black Sox got caught and were used as convenient scapegoats.

    Bottom line, pro baseball has never been a bastion of morality, so why pretend it is now?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Should Charles Manson be re-introduced as a contributing member of public society?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    In Response to Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?:
    [QUOTE]Should Charles Manson be re-introduced as a contributing member of public society?
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]
    One of the most amazingly bad analogies ever made.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Let's also put everyone who buys lottery tickets in prison camps.

    There will be alot less traffic on the streets for my morning commute.

    Of course, there won't be any customers to sell to either.

    Pete Rose lives in a country that "glorifies" gambling, then slaps them down if they gamble. Pete's biggest mistake was not doing the "legal" kind of gambling. The one where the government runs the show and gets the winnings.

    We were told not to gamble and use drugs. We were told to stay clear of loansharks.  But look at modern times, drug companies are advertising on T.V., the government runs lotteries and the big banks are essentially loansharks. No wonder organized crime is fading away, legit companies are squeezing them out.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    No. A shame, really, but he brought it on himself with his obfuscations and denials.  He should have come clean (metaphorically) and apologized, but no.  He made it worse by lying about it.

    A thousand times no.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Should President Obama be made an honorary member of the U.S. Marine "Corpse"?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    Roger Clemens is absolutely a hall of famer.  The hall of fame is not a trial, it is a record of baseball history and Clemens was one of the great pitchers of his generation and of all time.

    I really think it is a shame that all these writers have apparently appointed themselves as the moral gate keepers of the hall, when that is not their job.  There is no way that Clemens, Bonds, Arod, Manny, etc... should be left out.

    To the earlier point on Bagwell, it is a travesty that it has gotten to that point.  Where a guy who has never been officially linked is excluded based on suspicion.

     I've stated this on these steroid threads before but I believe that there are already PED users in the hall.  Take a look at Rickey Henderson in 1990 and in 2002.  Not to mention that Rickey was on a team with Jose and Big Mac. I don't think Bagwell is more suspicious than Roberto Alomar, whose inclusion I fully support.  

    Plenty of guys have been busted who don't fit the typical Juicer profile (Matt Lawton, Rafael Betencourt, etc...) so for these voters to pick and choose who they assume used PED's based on body type or HR numbers is irresponsible and truthfully discredits the whole process. 


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Should Roger Clemens Get Into the Hall of Fame?

    No.  He got paid a lot of money, so that should be enough.  The MLBPA and MLB were no doubt complicitous during the PED era, but no one was forcing Clemens to use them, which he unquestionably used to extend his career. 

    Ditto for Rose.  When he was playing, the no gambling rule was well known to everyone, but he broke it anyway.  He not only bet on baseball, he bet on games his team was playing.   Then he lied about it, endlessly.  I think he was a great ballplayer and a real leader on the field (he even helped the Phillies win the WS), but he broke a cardinal rule. 
     
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