Should the Sox....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Should the Sox....

    Open negotiations with Big Papi to let him know that they want him on the team for the few years, albeit at a reasonable price?

    Reports say Papi is a little upset that despite the year he is having and what he has done for the organization, he is no idea what the teams feelings are on him being re-signed.

    I think we all agree that the value of full time DH's have been devalued the last few years and with what happened with interleague play I can see why a manager would prefer a DH rotation, but I think the Sox owe David the courtesy of letting him know they would like to have him finsih his career with the Sox if possible....let him know specific numbers can be discussed in the off season but give him the love he deserves for what he has done and continues to do for this team

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

     I'd leave this issue alone. Management has probably told him when this issue will be addressed and I don't see the point in stirring up a lot of negativity in the middle of a pennant race. The media would certainly be happy to rile things up and Ortiz, himself, might raise the issue but he should know that if he continues to have a great season he'll be rewarded accordingly.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    I came across this blurb a couple days ago over at HardBall Talk (originally from ESPN Boston):

    “David [Ortiz] is (too) proud and respectful to say how he feels in public, but the guy feels hurt, upset by the way that he is being ignored by the Red Sox,” said the unnamed source. “After all he’s done here and having a good season, he was at least hoping to be approached by the team to talk about his future.”

    On one hand, www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=745&position=DH" target="_blank">David Ortiz has a point. He’s in the midst of his best season since 2007 — his .390 wOBA is impressive — and as one of the most-loved players on the Red Sox, it would seem like a common courtesy that the team would reach out to him about a new contract. If you can help it, you certainly don’t want to annoy one of your star players during the stretch run.

    But as weird as it may sound, I think the Red Sox are actually doing Ortiz a favor. He might not realize it now, but if the Sox had reached out to him, he might not have liked what he heard. I’m certain Ortiz will end up back in Boston, but much like Jeter’s situation this past offseason, things could get messy before the end.

    First, the facts: Ortiz is having his best season in four years. While he had a great 2010 — posting a .380 www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/woba/" target="_blank">wOBA in over 600 plate appearances — Ortiz has gone one step further this season. He’s hitting .288/.377/.534 — good for a .390 wOBA; he has dropped his strikeout rate the lowest of his career (13%); and he’s still among the most powerful hitters in the majors (.246 www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/iso/" target="_blank">ISO, seventh in the American League). He’s 35-years-old, and though he’s not as powerful as he once was during his peak, reports of his demise have been largely exaggerated, not to mention premature. Simply put, Ortiz can still rake.

    Because he’s having such a great season, Ortiz is going to want to get paid. Assuming he doesn’t slump, this will be the second consecutive season he’s finished with around 30 home runs and .380+ wOBA. Due to his age, this should be his last chance to make a massive salary through baseball, so it’s in his best interest to negotiate for the best deal.

    But will he get a big deal? Probably not. When Ortiz negotiated his current deal with the Red Sox, he was coming off an insane stretch in which he’d posted a .400+ wOBA  four seasons in row. He’d just hit 54 home runs in one year, and he was obviously one of the best home run hitters in the majors. And yet, the Red Sox only guaranteed to pay him $12.5 million per season for the next four years (there was an option for 2011). As a designated hitter on the far side of 30, Ortiz had much less value than his home run numbers suggested.

    Ortiz has arguably been worth his contract, contributing $57 million of production while being paid $64 million. But most of that production came during the first year of his contract (6.7 www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/misc/war/" target="_blank">WAR in 2007). Even if you give him a boost for being the “face of the franchise,” it’s still difficult to imagine a scenario where the Red Sox would be willing to pay Ortiz as much as he’s making right now.

    Just www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/03/2012-mlb-free-agents.html" target="_blank">look at this offseason’s class of free agents. If you’re a team looking for an aging slugger to provide you some power at DH, you have a list of options. Along with Ortiz, there’s Jim Thome, Hideki Matsui, Lance Berkman, Vladimir Guerrero, Bobby Abreu, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Beltran, Carlos Pena — the list goes on and on. While Ortiz in undeniably the best hitter of the lot, the point is that the Red Sox have leverage. The team doesn’t need to bring Ortiz back, and there are many other DH options available.

    So what would a new contract for David Ortiz look like? It depends how you project him going forward. Over the past four seasons, Ortiz has averaged just over 2.0 WAR per year (assuming he finished 2011 with around 3.5 WAR). Even if you are bullish on him and think he can average 2.0 WAR per year going forward, Ortiz would be worth at max $10 million per year. And if I’m the Red Sox, I wouldn’t want to commit to a contract any longer than three years.

    More than likely, Ortiz isn’t going to be happy to hear this sort of offer, which is why I think the Red Sox have the right idea in remaining silent during the season about contract discussions. Which would you prefer: a star player that’s mildly hurt you won’t talk about a new contract with him, or one that feels unappreciated and lowballed? It’s lose-lose either way, but the Red Sox are making a good call here.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    rkarp,you hit the nail on the head.Better to have Ortiz a little confused/hurt by the lack of an offer than upset with management with an offer he thinks is disrespectful.It would make for an uncomfortable clubhouse if Ortiz was upset by what he perceives as an insult of an offer.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    Better to let him be a little bit annoyed that we won't open negotiations during the season... while still assuming he may get a raise b/c he's having his best year since 2007... then to offer him the 3/24 or 2/18 or 1/11 extensions managements likely views his value at and risk having him be really upset.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    In Response to Should the Sox....:
    Open negotiations with Big Papi to let him know that they want him on the team for the few years, albeit at a reasonable price? Reports say Papi is a little upset that despite the year he is having and what he has done for the organization, he is no idea what the teams feelings are on him being re-signed. I think we all agree that the value of full time DH's have been devalued the last few years and with what happened with interleague play I can see why a manager would prefer a DH rotation, but I think the Sox owe David the courtesy of letting him know they would like to have him finsih his career with the Sox if possible....let him know specific numbers can be discussed in the off season but give him the love he deserves for what he has done and continues to do for this team
    Posted by tomnev


    I don't know what the policy really is, but I am of two minds here.  Making Papi feel better by talking to him is a possible benefit.  Making him PO'd because the talks are not somehow respectable is a direct possibility.

    My original thought was it couldn't hurt to talk ... but then the memory of Pedro feeling disrespected came to mind as well as the two year offer to VMart last  year ...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    A poster, supra, said, in 2009, Ortiz was in "steep decline". He now posts about not "upsetting him with an offer during the season". He was gone the entire 2010 because his favorite player was indicting red Sox management and taking a year off.

    Dear Mr. Ortiz,

    I'm ashamed of the bigoted based double standard that is most Boston fans. I've been a Red Sox fan since 1967, but have reached my limit on the terrible nature of most Boston fans.

    You have taken absurd levels of abuse, despite having provided Red Sox fans with the most impressive quality body of team work player leadership in Red Sox history. You single handedly lead the charge to end the Yankee ownership of the Red Sox, still remaining, to all Yankees, the most feared player in Yankee history (You did it again to the Yankees, last night, leading the team). Winning is part of your superstar status. You represent what a real superstar is. Now that you are in the final stage of an age related athletic career, it's disgusting to see the way you have been jerked around by management. Most Boston fans were abusive in 2009 and 2010, calling you washed up and complaining too much about your batting position and future contract. Boston media abused you by stalking you during your slow starts or slumps, making it a daily circus captious feeding frenzy. 

    This Board has been constantly abusive. A poster, in 2009, claimed you were in "steep decline". Another poster claimed you should be benched vs. nearly all LHP. And while Mike Lowell is a good Red Sox citizen and former player, it was disgusting to see the tenor of comments about benching you in favor of the more popular Lowell. Lowell had injuries that were revealed and showed he was no longer capable of doing either an everyday or bench job, yet he was the choice of Boston during your slump of 2010.

    Wakefield has had an ERA over 5 for more than 2 years elapsed season time. Boston media and fans are overwhelming in calling for Wakefield and Varitek to be resigned. Yet, keep carping about DH market value not being over 8M a year and any deal should not be for more than 8M base a year.

    I support giving you a contract for 15M for 2012, and a mutual option for 5M for year 2 so you can opt out if FA market for your services is larger. In addition, a $175,000 a year lifetime consultant and PR work when you retire, regardless of whether you play another few years with another team.  For what you have done for the Red Sox, it is important to me that you finish your career as the highest paid DH in history during one season!

    You have handled the jerking and abuse with grace. But I'm a fan who is speaking out against Boston double standards. I'm embarrassed that Theo is silent on your Red Sox future!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    If Theo deson't offer you a good faith contract, now, for at least what you are making this year, I believe the long term best interest of the Red Sox is for you to protect future player abuse by calling Brian Cashman, after your contract expires, and tell him you would appreciate the respect of a serious offer to play for the Yankees in 2012.

    If you were to sign with the Yankees, I not only respect it but approve it. The abuse you have taken from bigoted Boston media and fans does not deserve your continued graceful loyalty. If you sign with the Yankees, I will not pull for the Yankees but I will pull for you to have a great season.

    I specifically exclude great Red Sox owner John Henry from my criticism. My hope is he will read my letter and intervene on your behalf. Mr. Henry has been loyal and by your side during your lows. My hope is that he will give his personal attention and best judgment to your case. I respect and trust Mr. Henry's leadership. I do not have confidence in middle management.

    Thank you for being the smiling charismatic face and leader of Red Sox return to the best brand in baseball! And continued best wishes on leading this Red Sox team to another championship!  

    Best regards,

    Softlaw
    softlaw@yahoo.com
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    Ortiz will be getting the "treatment" and it will be called "it's just business" and that's why players who are long-time Sox who perform often get disappointed by this employer. They would rather give 142 mil and 82 mil and 70 mil and 53 mil to guys who never did a thing for Sox prior to their guaranteed contracts. Nomar, Mo, Clemens, and you can go on and on, and maybe you can make a case that the Sox were right not to sew those players up, but I take care of my own if you win with them. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    I'd be begging Papelbon's agent to get a contract done right now. Longer you wait, the harder it will be, and the cost will get higher. Eventually you lose the guy to another franchise willing to pay the piper. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    Let him finish the season first. IMO, its Never good to negotiate in-season in this situation..Im sure the FO will take care of Papi if he continues what hes doing at the plate. Papi has to remember not to be too sensitive about this cause its not personal, its a business after all..The media is asking him these questions to stir the pot and trying to bait him. He just needs to concentrate on his hitting and the rest will take care of itself.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    David is currently on a hot streak.  I would not worry about him being disappointed.  Either it is making him do better (to prove his worth), or not hurting him at all.  Let it be.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    I just go off of past history for Theo. He lets the players stew, and it helps him PR wise when he lets them go. It's a strategy that might be good for business, but also might be somewhat callous. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    That uber-stupid post about bigotry is almost breathtaking.

    If there is one player who is BELOVED by most Sox fans, it's Big Papi.  The ONLY negatives I hear (read) about him is on this site.  And in 2009, that same poster was among several claiming Papi was all done. 

    I'm not sure which is worse.  Claiming to be a supporter - when he's already stabbed Papi in the back - or using the race card to make the situation seem worse.

    I think it is finally time to ban that poster for life.  His diatribe has gone from normal idiocy to attempting to hurt both player, team and community.  I know it can't be done, but this is the worst case of two-faced hatred I've seen expressed on this site to date.  I am literally fighting back p uke.

    Shame on you, softy.  You are reprehensible.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    True, Papi is my favorite player on the Sox and is the most beloved player on the team

    As for the business side of it, he was worth 33 million combined over the last 4 years, an average of just over 8 million a year. He was 32-35 years old.

    Assuming he gives that type of production age 36-38 his value is 3 years 24 million like I just said in a post above. Since he is so beloved, and the face of the franchise and we don't want to lose him I can see us upping the offer to 3/30 or 2/25 or 1/15 something like that.

    It is more than fair. Like Jeter wanting 5/100 and taking 3/45.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    rame, 142 million was spent on CC, 82 mil spent on Lack...sounds to me like 24 mil for 3 is not only fair, but worth it. I'd open up negotiations tomorrow and get it done. But that's not the Sox FO MO....they just leave you hanging and hide behind old business practices. Either they want you back cheap or not back at all, but they won't show their cards to their players, and it's getting old, that way of negotiating. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    Ortiz was worth 33 million the last 4 years, 23.1 the last 2 and 12.4 million this year

    http://www.fangraphs.com/

    Vlad was worth 23 million the last 4, 8 million the last 2 and 500k this year

    Matsui was worth 26.5 million - 10.9 - 5.1

    Damon was worth 43.5 million - 11.3 - 1.2

    Magglio was worth 29.5 million - 13.4 - 3.2

    Derrick Lee was worth 48.4 million - 10.9 - 3.0

    So it is great that David is worth WAY more and earning his salary this season compared to similar aged DH types.

    But it might be smarter for many teams to go for 1 of those guys at 1 year, maybe a platoon situation, over trying to outbid the Sox for Papi next season. Based on 2 year avg's you'd have to pay Papi what, 25-30 million to get him away from Boston and get back 20-25 million in performance.

    Or you could pay any of those guys 2-3 million to get 4-5 million in performance. All of them have fielded more than Ortiz as well.

    Meanwhile other free agents:

    Berkman was worth 73 million - 24.4 - 16

    Beltran was worth 68.5 million - 19.8 - 16.6

    Carlos Pena was worth 38.8 million - 9 - 5.5

    Josh Willingham was worth 41.3 - 16.6 - 4.6

    They would be looking at getting the same type of years and $ as Papi and all of them can actually field along with hitting 20+ Hr's.

    it is a market awash with players who can be 5-6 hitters and most would be cheaper than big Papi, those who would cost the same (would anyone cost more?) can also field.

    The man will get paid b/c other teams will not come close to even the Sox lowball offer, unless the Yanks try to be bothersome and get under our skin.

    and the man will get paid because EVERYONE IN BOSTON LOVES HIM

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    In Response to Re: Should the Sox....:
    rame, 142 million was spent on CC, 82 mil spent on Lack...sounds to me like 24 mil for 3 is not only fair, but worth it. I'd open up negotiations tomorrow and get it done. But that's not the Sox FO MO....they just leave you hanging and hide behind old business practices. Either they want you back cheap or not back at all, but they won't show their cards to their players, and it's getting old, that way of negotiating. 
    Posted by dannycater


    They will prob feel statistically and from a busines sstandpoint like giving him 3/24 or 2/18 or 1/11

    but Papi will want 2/30 or 3/36, something like that

    In the end he will get 2/24 or 1 year 13 million w/ a vesting option at 9 million... something like that

    and its way more than other teams would pay for him
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    Wow, what a pompous jerk!  Softy, you are out of your mind.  No one is reading anything you write.  You might as well just go outside and yell at the top of your lungs.  You have just as much chance of Red Sox management hearing you that way.  Or maybe you can get something done during your next round of scratch golf.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    The ONLY negatives I hear (read) about him is on this site. And in 2009, that same poster was among several claiming Papi was all done.

    You are either suffering from dimentia, icon looks like it, or you are a total liar!

    Softlaw was in Ortiz's corner in 2009! War smitten fantasy flea called Ortiz "in steep decline" in 2009 and wanted him benched v. Lhp.

    The pompous jerks are most on this board who were verbally lynching Ortiz in 2009 and 2010 and now supporting the jerking around Ortiz is getting from Theo "i'm an idiot who signed Crawford on 2010 WAR" InEpstein.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    Ah the sad fool lies again

    I've said since I signed up here in 2006 that Papi is my favorite player

    In 2008-2010 Ortiz vs. lefties was .218/.291/.318

    WOW! That is HORRIBLE

    Varitek's 08-10 vs. lefties went .252/.347/.491
    Lowell 08-10 vs. lefties went .283/.349/497

    It only made sense after we got VMart (great vs. lefties) and later even more sense when we got Beltre around the same time that Lowell couldn't field anymore, that Tek catch and Lowell DH vs. lefties. Don't forget Lowell was making 12.5 million, was a great teammate and deserved some AB's somewhere.

    Can't hide from 3 years of STATS that show FACT. What David has done this year vs. lefties (.314/.420/562) after falling off the cliff vs. them for 3 years is truly amazing and unheard of.

    Papi was still going to get 25 HR's and 90 RBI's. I'd have still picked up his option and NEVER wanted him off the team. Never demeaned, name called, played race cards, any of the Softy trash. David is my favorite player and only ever used stats to show what could make the team better.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    and softlaw was never in Ortiz' corner in 2009

    Multiple comments that demeaned

    Multiple 'deadlines' given for when 'Softlaw would cut big papi'

    Of course Softy said the same thing about sitting him vs. lefties, only now he denies it b/c unlike me he is A LIAR.

    He also said to pretend the man has injury and rehab him in AAA.

    Yuck.

    Lies, spin and hypocracy is all you get from the reviled board jester
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from softylaw. Show softylaw's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    No one calls Ortiz in 2009 "in serious decline" and then, today, says "he's my favorite player". "The kid" is your wet dream.

    The lies are your nonsense.  I said Olney was a little coward when you supported the "meeting to discuss DFA'ing Ortiz". You little flea!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Should the Sox....

    as I have said many, many times. Forget what the statistics or your heart thinks Ortiz is worth. His worth is what any team is willing to pay him. What team in baseball will pay Ortiz 2/$20 other than the Sox? Obviously exclude every NL team. Yankees looking at Arod/Jeter/Nunez/Montero for 3 spots and cannot clog the dh spot. Rangers? Angels? O's? Lets face it, the market for Otiz is just not there. Theo knows it. Ortiz knows it. That is why he is leaking his unhappiness now, in the middle of a potential WS run, trying to make Theo squirm. Wont happen and he will be resigned for 2/$20 after the season, which will be $4-$6 million over what any other dh will sign for 
     
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