Should Valentine be fired??

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    notin misses the obvious, the Sox did not sign any big FA's to long-term deals because they could not afford to after all the other debacles. Take Lackey and Crawfords contracts off the books and the SOX would have signed 1-2 big FA's.
    Posted by EnchiladaT


    I am not suer I am the one who "missd" what happened tyhis offseason.

    Realy, if you did not want a 1B or a closer, this off-season left very little to sign anyway.  Luxury Tax Threshhold or not, there was almost nothing worth going after than the Sox needed.  Am I the only one who saw that?  If you think 1-2 big FA's, ddi you want a 1B, a closer, or one of each? Maybe Fielder and Pujols, especially with AGon on the team?

    Reagardkless of reasons why, I am glad the sox did not continue overcommiting to players on the downside of their career.  Aren't you?  Read some of my other posts sometime and see if you can assess my general opinion of signing free agents (REALLY REALLY REALLY DUMB!!) and then try to discern if I care if they did not sign any for LT threshhold or selection reasons.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired?? : In Spring training a lot of people on this board thought getting rid of Francona and hiring Valentine was all that needed to be done. "Valentine is tough he will fix this mess and will not let the players get away with what they did under Francona"  I heard that about 17 times a day.  I thought it was funny then and I still do now.  
    Posted by snakeoil123


    A lot of people didn't think it was funny.  We got use to winning.  This was the Golden Age of Red Sox baseball.

    And some of us had seen BV manage in NY.

    And as some of us tried to suggest, winning 90-95 every year, and getting to the ALCS every other year, and occasionally winning the WS, isn't quite as simple as others made it out to be.

    Some of us aren't as humored as others.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    [QUOTE]If you fire BV. The inmates have won again. Unless you have a real bonafide candidate to right the ship you are in a tough situation. Theo created this mess with his awful free agent signings and as good as he was early on puting the pieces together for the champion teams, he left the team worse than when he got here. It will take years to get out from under theos awful contract signings.
    Posted by Mchampion[/QUOTE]

    So.. then status quo? 

    The team was tremendous from May thru August, inmates or not.  Since September, not so much, and Francona was only there for one month of that stretch...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired?? : A lot of people didn't think it was funny.  We got use to winning.  This was the Golden Age of Red Sox baseball. And some of us had seen BV manage in NY. And as some of us tried to suggest, winning 90-95 every year, and getting to the ALCS every other year, and occasionally winning the WS, isn't quite as simple as others made it out to be. Some of us aren't as humored as others.
    Posted by Joebreidey


    Oh the situation wasn't funny.  Not at all.

    What was funny was the numerous posts and comments related to how Bobby V was going to right this ship.

    And that so many people believed it.  Whether fans liked Francona or not, the players loved him.  Bobby V was the worst possible choice.  A paper tiger.


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    I haven't read all eight pages, but here's my two cents.

    First, it's not all Bobby V.'s fault. The injuries have been a factor and underperformance.

    However his "genius" for in-game strategy has been much-less than advertised, and he's created unnecessary fires. A manager is supposed to put out fires, and he seems to start more fires than he puts out.

    So while he's not solely to blame, he certainly is part of the problem, which is that there seems to be too many factions and not a team -- manager, coaches, front office, medical staff -- where everyone isn't on the same page.

    Valentine seems to have been brought in for shock value, rather than with any kind of long-term plan.

    So yes, Valentine needs to go. However, the changes can't end there.

    The manager who is brought in needs to be on the same page in how the front office wants things done. That's hardly a controversial thought. But also, the front office with the new manager needs to sit down and evaluate all part of how things are done -- the role of the training staff, who makes what decisions, everything -- so no one is stabbing anyone behind the back and the manager is reflecting the front office and front office is backing the manager and all the coaches are on the same page with the manager and vice-versa.

    As for blowing up the team, I think that's a too simplistic attitude. Going into the season with the team that was planned will go a long way toward getting things going. And you don't dump players simply because the fans don't like their personality.

    Here's where the new manager and a unified front office come in. They set up standards of behavior and work ethic and expectations, sit down with individual players and lay it on the line. A good manager can be strong w/o being abrasive. Anyone not on board, you move out.

    Contrary to the viewpoint of some fans, most players are professional and do care, regardless of their contracts, and don't like losing.

    And everybody has to be held accountable for THEIR OWN actions. That means if Lester is complaining on calls or struggling, it's HIS FAULT, not Beckett's or Lackey's. If Beckett isn't doing the work expected or creating real problems in the clubhouse, it's his problem and that needs to be addressed.

    But the focus should be on real problems and real issues and not imaginary issues that fans or media assume is going on.
     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Motown9009. Show Motown9009's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired?? : That is it ?  You give him credit for signing those guys ?  An eminently mediocre group if there ever was one. And , let's not forget Punto, Sweeney and Byrd. When you put together a team like that, you get the results that you are seeing. One of the highest payrolls in the game , and a mediocre team.  He traded Reddick for the man who we haven't seen yet. Reddick has 23 home runs , while we patiently wait for the injury prone Bailey to save the day. Seriously , are you this easily satisfied ?
    Posted by dgalehouse


    I watched a couple of Blue Jays/A's games this week and it's just killing me knowing Reddick was a Red Sox. I can't really fault the logic behind the trade - Kalish was the RF of the future, they needed a closer, etc....but seeing how Reddick's turned out I wouldn't make that trade again for a healthy Bailey.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired?? : I don't know or care if Cabrera slept with someone's wife. He probably did, and that guy - Foulke or not - probably cheated on her anyway. Such is life in MLB. But c'mon.  Defending Cabrera?  First of all, his departure lead to drafting Ellsbury and Lowrie.  Like Renteria or not, this move appeared to be to take advantage of a loophole in compensation, which, surpise, surpise, has been modified somewhat since. As for Orlando, he certainly was a questionable human being, right down to his calling official scorers during games to gripe about error calls, which he absolutely did in Chicago.  (And judging from scoring after the play, he might have beeen  a little too intimiadting, as well.)  Cabrera also floated from team to team at near-record pace, usually finishing the season in different laundry than when he started it.  Was he offputting, or heavily sought after?  I know he was all but asked to leave the White Sox, as even Guillen couldn't stand him...
    Posted by notin

    And he's lauded more than Nomar because Orlando was the SS on the 04 winning team. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    I love how the fans here defend BV like they want him to go down with the Titantic....Stubborn way of looking at things. The love that BV gets on this forum and the hate that Tito got is still mystifying. JoeB gets a lot of heat from people over some of his preaching--but he's been completely on target for a long time about Tito's effect on the Sox and the glow of winning that the club has had for years...Yes, the team has had problems since 2009, but Tito kept the team competitive and to get 89 wins with the Bridge Team is still maybe his best managerial effort ever. He did a lot of the 93-95 win thing. BV is lucky if the team can even make .500...He's 12 games currently under what I thought this team could accomplish....Blame it on Rio, blame it on injuries, blame it on lack of chemistry, on the FO--blame whatever you want. This season is a joke, and BV is a joke, and it's time to unload him. The players need a new leader, and it doesn't matter if its Jerry Royster or Wally the Monster, just bring in anything to replace what has been a disaster--BV's managerial Sox run...He should pull a Jerry Tarkanian and just call it quits
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    Why anyone would defend a 2-game under .500 manager who was beaten up by the likes of the Twins and Mariners--is just scary. It's like the fans went from "Tito is killing the team, get a new manager!!!! We can't make the playoffs for cryin loud!!! So he won 2 WS titles! What has he done for us lately!!! He sucks in the dugout!!!" to "Oh, it's ok, we aren't competitive and the players are to blame and BV was saddled with Tito's coaches and fill-in the excuse...and another excuse...and what a fabulous job BV has done with the bullpen, and he's a great in-game manager....Oh my....oh don't fire him..we're perfectly fine with a 400mil payroll that IS 2 GAMES UNDER .500"......YIKES.  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR--you might just get far worse like the Sox.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??



    Bobby Valentine needs to learn English.  I cannot understand how he can be so misinformed of his ballclub. 

    Cherington should hire him a translator.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    Why anyone would defend a 2-game under .500 manager who was beaten up by the likes of the Twins and Mariners--is just scary. It's like the fans went from "Tito is killing the team, get a new manager!!!! We can't make the playoffs for cryin loud!!! So he won 2 WS titles! What has he done for us lately!!! He sucks in the dugout!!!" to "Oh, it's ok, we aren't competitive and the players are to blame and BV was saddled with Tito's coaches and fill-in the excuse...and another excuse...and what a fabulous job BV has done with the bullpen, and he's a great in-game manager....Oh my....oh don't fire him..we're perfectly fine with a 400mil payroll that IS 2 GAMES UNDER .500"......YIKES.  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR--you might just get far worse like the Sox.
    Posted by dannycater


    Befroe last September, Francona was 83-52 with this team, a record that looks more impressive if you remember they started out 2-10. (Yes, 81-42 baseball for 4 1/2 months!!).  One bad month in which the starters were depleted and the bullpen frazzled, and they canned Francona to ensure there will be no September, 2011 ever again.

    And there won't.  Valentine simply cannot get the team to position itself with a good enough record to every worry about collapsing.

    He was the wrong guy, and I warned you all that way back when.  And you all failed to heed my warnings, and now you must pay dearly!!
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    Last year is over with, so is Chickengate The Tito bashers from last year are irrelevant now This is a new season Last year has been discussed all winter - a dead horse This year deserves an independent analysis We have most injuries than any team since 1997 Pedroia is playing injured Offense is sporadic, very inconsistent Defense suffered without Pedroia, Ellsbury Missed Ellsbury's power and baserunning game Starting pitching of Beckett and Lester is subpar Need Bailey and Bard in relief, Aceves is not the answer Many problems here that BV and the FO are not responsible for BV isn't a great manager, has anyone made that claim? But he isn't responsible for the above problems Managers at best account for five more wins per year FYI - Payroll is $170 mil. - not $400 mil.
    Posted by Calzone65


    The tactical mistakes are piling up Calzone. Those are the responsibility of the manager. You cannot justify leaving a visibly fatigued and ineffective Aceves in the game last night, nor can you justify allowing Mauer, the best hitter on the Twins, to bat with the winning run on second base and first base open. Two mistakes. They are happening more and more regularly. No, he isn't responsible for the outhouse that is our pitching staff-that was handed to him. Right now I am on the fence about him...too many stupid tactical errors.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    pumpsie and Bill and Bosox41 were three of his big supporters--BV--and all 3 have now reservations about him. I think that is telling from a fan perspective.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    im a supporter of valentine and i thought he has done good work this yr..esp w/all the injuries...but i have no idea what he was doing last night...he left miller in too long, aceves bailed him out, then a good move w/pedro...and then watched aceves die slowly on the mound...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    If you fire BV. The inmates have won again. The inmates won when BV picked a fight with Youkilis.  I don't subscribe to an inmate mentality based on one bad month in 2011, but if one were to subscribe to an inmate mentality, were the inmates really Youk and Pedroia?
    Posted by Joebreidey


    I understand & relate to the sentiment that firing Bobby V. could send players the wrong, "we won, we're still in charge," message. 

    BUT!  Keeping bobby v., for the sake of "not letting the players get their way again," would absolutely be the equivalent of cutting your nose off to spite your face.

    THE ONLY RELEVANT QUESTIONS with respect to Bobby V. are................
    Does he have the backing from ownership & the FO to truly manage this team?
    Will the FO and ownership back him if he tries to "rock this boat?"
    Have the players responded positively to Bobby V?
    Has bobby v. said & done some pretty wacky things?
    Does he instill a sense of professional calm & winners attitude?
    Can he lead and motivate this crew to make a run at the post season?
    Is Bobby V. adding to the dysfunction?
    Does HE keep bringing up examples of dysfunction and his being undercut?
    Is this adding to the soap opera atmosphere?
    Are the players and coaches behind him?
    Are they even remotely likely to get behind him for a run?

    The answers to these questions appear to be self-evident!

    Yes!  The primary blame goes to ownership & the FO for not backing BV!
    Yes!  The players are absolutely to blame for not getting the job done!
    Yes!  The players are to blame for not getting behind bobby v., shutting the F up & PLAYING to their capabilities, and undermining yet another manage!

    Still, is keeping bobby v. likely to result in a run at the post season?  Absolutely not, based on the 2012 record to date, & the 1 step forward, 2 steps back pattern!!!!

    ***For those who can't seem to manage 2 thoughts at one time, is it possible that there is plenty of blame to go around with PLAYERS, coaches, the FO, ownership, and even little bobby v.???? BUT, the only realistic move that CAN BE MADE at this point still be........ sacking bobby v????

    So please stop the "why is bobby v. getting ALL the blame???" BS!!!
    Firing bobby v. is not mutually exclusive of others getting the majority of the blame!
     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired?? : The forum over the winter had many supporters of BV. Pumpsie wasn't here. Bill is never serious about anything, just trying to be humorous and contrary, and Bosox1942 appeared to be for BV because his anti-manager act needed a rest for a few months.
    Posted by Calzone65


    No, I wasn't here. But I did support him (and still do) for the job. I felt that the team needed a law and order type of manager who would put the players in their places. Unfortunately, management castrated him from day one and he has not been able to accomplish his task. Furthermore, they provided him with a roster of starting pitchers who have been ineffective. In short, he was placed in an impossible position and asked to perform in impossible task from the very beginning. If the FO wants results from Bobby Valentine next year they should let him do his job and stay clear.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired?? : The tactical mistakes are piling up Calzone. Those are the responsibility of the manager. You cannot justify leaving a visibly fatigued and ineffective Aceves in the game last night, nor can you justify allowing Mauer, the best hitter on the Twins, to bat with the winning run on second base and first base open. Two mistakes. They are happening more and more regularly. No, he isn't responsible for the outhouse that is our pitching staff-that was handed to him. Right now I am on the fence about him...too many stupid tactical errors.
    Posted by pumpsie-green


    The thing is, they aren't happening with more regularity.  BV was making a mental error every other game starting from ST.  The only difference now is that the BV fans are no longer following him blindly.  He was making decisions almost at random since the start of the season.

    It's almost hard to believe that people couldn't see it.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    Unfortunately, management castrated him from day one and he has not been able to accomplish his task.

    He was picking fights with Youk and Pedroia.  He held a press conference to tell the world that Doubront had no out pitch.

    Seriously, is that the task you wanted him to accomplish?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired?? : No, I wasn't here. But I did support him (and still do) for the job. I felt that the team needed a law and order type of manager who would put the players in their places. Unfortunately, management castrated him from day one and he has not been able to accomplish his task. Furthermore, they provided him with a roster of starting pitchers who have been ineffective. In short, he was placed in an impossible position and asked to perform in impossible task from the very beginning. If the FO wants results from Bobby Valentine next year they should let him do his job and stay clear.
    Posted by pumpsie-green

    You could be correct.  I guess what I don't understand is why anyone thought Bobby V could be that guy.

    I can only go with my own perceptions but if he were my boss it would be hard for me not to laugh in his face and I certainly would mock him behind his back.

    I've been saying this since he was hired.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired?? : The thing is, they aren't happening with more regularity.  BV was making a mental error every other game starting from ST.  The only difference now is that the BV fans are no longer following him blindly.  He was making decisions almost at random since the start of the season. It's almost hard to believe that people couldn't see it.
    Posted by Joebreidey


    BV never got a free pass from me. I thought at the beginning of the season that he was the right man for the job; now I am less convinced. Its very difficult to judge a man on the job he is doing if he has been handcuffed by his own bosses from day one. He was never allowed to do what he was hired to do. Its not fair to judge his performance because of that. What he did with Youkilis, in retrospect, was ill considered. That said, we all knew that he was never going to be the most tactful manager around. But when Mighty Mouth told him that "Thats not the way we do things around here", Valentine should have leveled the boom on him. You do not talk to your boss that way, especially in the media. Valentine has not been perfect but right now I don't see anyone I would rather have at the helm. For next season, as of right now, I think he should be allowed to continue but that the FO should stay out of his way and let him do his job-realizing that he will make some PR blunders.
     
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    Re: Should Valentine be fired??

    In Response to Re: Should Valentine be fired??:
    im a supporter of valentine and i thought he has done good work this yr..esp w/all the injuries...but i have no idea what he was doing last night...he left miller in too long, aceves bailed him out, then a good move w/pedro...and then watched aceves die slowly on the mound...
    Posted by georom4

    I also didn't get taking Buchholz out after seven innings and 103 pitches. No reason he couldn't have come out for the 8th. Obviously we'd have had to go to Aceves eventually, but still ...
     
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