Small Ball

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    In response to trouts' comment:

    An incredible victory! Yet there is one question I have: if there was ever a time for small ball it was in the top of the 8th after Drew singled and got to 2nd on Hunter's misplay of the ball. We were up 1-0 with a guy on second and noone out with Middlebrooks at the plate. Now Middlebrooks is not exactly hitting the cover off of the ball and Cabrera can hardly move at 3rd. Shouldn't we be thinking of an insurance run and either bunt him over or hit the ball right side? Whatever happens to the concept of "productive out"?



    With a runner already in scoring position no manager is going to waste an out to move the runner over to third. Dumb move. 

    Hetch




    Actually, I have to agree with trouts.  If Drew is bunted over, the infield comes in.  THAT makes it worth giving up an out for.

     

    Thr trouble is, Middlebrooks cannot really be counted on to sacrifice bunt...



    Notin, 

    Unfortunately teaching players how to bunt in the minors and bunting in general, at least according to some commentators seems to becoming a lost art. I might have overstated my position but with Verlander on the mound throwing his lively fastball and Middy up, a sac bunt wasn't happening. Some manager might sacrifice but with a runner @ second I'm with Farrel. I wouldn't waste an out. I'd rather have my batter taking his swings. 

    Every manager has different philosophies but for some dummies to berate Farrel because they differ in opinions is foolishness after leading this team to a great year. Most of these back seat managers think they know more about baseball then the man getting paid to manage, but if they were in Farrel's shoes on the bench they'd be clueless.

    Hetch  

    Hetch

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to manosome's comment:

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    In response to trouts' comment:

    An incredible victory! Yet there is one question I have: if there was ever a time for small ball it was in the top of the 8th after Drew singled and got to 2nd on Hunter's misplay of the ball. We were up 1-0 with a guy on second and noone out with Middlebrooks at the plate. Now Middlebrooks is not exactly hitting the cover off of the ball and Cabrera can hardly move at 3rd. Shouldn't we be thinking of an insurance run and either bunt him over or hit the ball right side? Whatever happens to the concept of "productive out"?



    With a runner already in scoring position no manager is going to waste an out to move the runner over to third. Dumb move. 

    Hetch




    Actually, I have to agree with trouts.  If Drew is bunted over, the infield comes in.  THAT makes it worth giving up an out for.

     

    Thr trouble is, Middlebrooks cannot really be counted on to sacrifice bunt...



    Notin, 

    Unfortunately teaching players how to bunt in the minors and bunting in general, at least according to some commentators seems to becoming a lost art. I might have overstated my position but with Verlander on the mound throwing his lively fastball and Middy up, a sac bunt wasn't happening. Some manager might sacrifice but with a runner @ second I'm with Farrel. I wouldn't waste an out. I'd rather have my batter taking his swings. 

    Every manager has different philosophies but for some dummies to berate Farrel because they differ in opinions is foolishness after leading this team to a great year. Most of these back seat managers think they know more about baseball then the man getting paid to manage, but if they were in Farrel's shoes on the bench they'd be clueless.

    Hetch  

    Hetch



    You're with Farrell, so theoretically you are Farrell. By me insulting Farrell, i'm also insulting you. Plus you appear to be a supporter of Francona's managerial skills. You should be very happy because Farrell is just a taller version of Tito. IMO, which i'm entitled too, neither is a good field manager, and yes, Tito was at the right place at the right time.



    Actually, by you expressing any opinions at all, you are insulting human intelligence.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from thehub. Show thehub's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    And if a major leaguer can't bunt, then send him down to learn

    And in the meantime, send up Boggy or Nava to bunt

     




    Middlebrooks has one career sac bunt.  He has one in the minors as well.

     

    Bogaerts has 3 sac bunts, all in the minors.

     

    Nava has 6 career sac bunts and 4 more in the minors.

     

    With Verlander on the mound, might as well let these guys do what got them here, which is clearly not bunting.

     

    Quintin Berry had 6 sac bunts last year in Detroit.  He is the bench "expert"...



    Thats should have been the move. We should have lut more pressue on them with a runner at 3rd and ells up. One out and you have the top of the order up with a runner on third. Easy call. Players should be able to sac bunt. Their hand eye conrdination is very good at this level. Square early and put the pressure on him the toss strikes. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    Whats the difference between a failed bunt attempt and a Strikeout?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    I was listening to the game, to it at work, reception bad, I thought he K'd, maybe I'm wrong.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to manosome's comment:

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    In response to trouts' comment:

    An incredible victory! Yet there is one question I have: if there was ever a time for small ball it was in the top of the 8th after Drew singled and got to 2nd on Hunter's misplay of the ball. We were up 1-0 with a guy on second and noone out with Middlebrooks at the plate. Now Middlebrooks is not exactly hitting the cover off of the ball and Cabrera can hardly move at 3rd. Shouldn't we be thinking of an insurance run and either bunt him over or hit the ball right side? Whatever happens to the concept of "productive out"?



    With a runner already in scoring position no manager is going to waste an out to move the runner over to third. Dumb move. 

    Hetch




    Actually, I have to agree with trouts.  If Drew is bunted over, the infield comes in.  THAT makes it worth giving up an out for.

     

    Thr trouble is, Middlebrooks cannot really be counted on to sacrifice bunt...



    Notin, 

    Unfortunately teaching players how to bunt in the minors and bunting in general, at least according to some commentators seems to becoming a lost art. I might have overstated my position but with Verlander on the mound throwing his lively fastball and Middy up, a sac bunt wasn't happening. Some manager might sacrifice but with a runner @ second I'm with Farrel. I wouldn't waste an out. I'd rather have my batter taking his swings. 

    Every manager has different philosophies but for some dummies to berate Farrel because they differ in opinions is foolishness after leading this team to a great year. Most of these back seat managers think they know more about baseball then the man getting paid to manage, but if they were in Farrel's shoes on the bench they'd be clueless.

    Hetch  

    Hetch



    You're with Farrell, so theoretically you are Farrell. By me insulting Farrell, i'm also insulting you. Plus you appear to be a supporter of Francona's managerial skills. You should be very happy because Farrell is just a taller version of Tito. IMO, which i'm entitled too, neither is a good field manager, and yes, Tito was at the right place at the right time.



    Now I know you know nothing about baseball. I'm a supporter of Farrel and no you're not insulting me. Tito now in Cleveland has done quite a nice job of helping his club to rebuild so if he was such a bad manager how come Cleveland had such a good year. Right place, right time once more. You and Softy must be great friends. IGNORE !!

    Hetch 

    Hetch

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to thehub's comment:

    Thats should have been the move. We should have lut more pressue on them with a runner at 3rd and ells up. One out and you have the top of the order up with a runner on third. Easy call. Players should be able to sac bunt. Their hand eye conrdination is very good at this level. Square early and put the pressure on him the toss strikes. 



    Even if Middlebrooks was a good bunter this is not a slam dunk move!  It's Verlander on the mound, folks - he made one bad pitch all day.  You think he can't strike out Ellsbury or pop him up?  LMAO

    Our chances of scoring were not great no matter what we did.  Verlander is just that good.  Might as well let WMB swing away.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    Disagree.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    Disagree.



    You have to elaborate.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    I'm not saying your wrong and I am right. Its about the situation and time of game for me. 8th inning, runner in scoring Position no Outs. You force the issue, you give up the out, more chances to score with runner at 3rd.
    Passed Ball, Wild Pitch, Error, Slow roller. Might force infield in, help Ellsbury to get a hit. Verlander might not Pitch from stretch, easier to Squeeze. Might even walk Ellsbury, with 1st base open, them you can send him.
    What I'm trying to say, is your not giving up an out, your Forcing other Team to play Defensively.

    Of course if both batters K, doesn't matter anyway.ha

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    I am not obssessed with Trumbo.

    I am obssessed with contingency plans.

    And we need a middle of the order bat for next year.

    If you don't like Trumbo, then who would you prefer?; and it needs to be someone who is realistically available.

    The thing w/ Trumbo is he would hit 40 HR's w/ 81 games in Fenway, he can play LF or 1B (or DH), he is not expensive/under control, and he is still young and developing.  You have to take  chance of buying low.  If you just go after guys who have proven past records you will end up broke and miserable; see Brian Cashman's new york yankees......

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to crazyworldoftroybrown's comment:

    Disagree.



    You have to elaborate.

     




    it's easier to score with a guy at 3rd base w/ 1 out then 2nd base w/ no out

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    it's easier to score with a guy at 3rd base w/ 1 out then 2nd base w/ no out



    Do you have the actual stats on that though?  Here's what I think the stats say:

    1) Yes, you have a slightly higher chance of scoring 1 run.

    2) You have a reduced chance of scoring more than 1 run.

    But even that is all based simply on the averages, which means all hitters and all pitchers, and does not necessarily reflect the chances when you're facing Verlander. 

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    there are 8 or 9 ways to score from 3rd base without a hit and less than 2 outs.

    in a close game like yesterday and late - you HAVE to tack on that insurance run.  the move is to give yourself up and hit a grounder to the right side or bunt him to 3rd.  i don't care how good the pitcher is or his numbers against the next batter (JE in this case).  you have to give that batter the opportunity to score the run with an out. 

    having him pitch to JE with a runner on 3rd also deletes anything low in the zone (see:  pitch in the dirt).  the batter can reduce his zone and square one up much easier.

    this was a no-brainer...should have attempted to bunt him over.  even if he is unsuccesful on the first 2 strikes, he would still have the 3rd strike to try and ground one to right side.

    of course JE flew out to leftfield very much deep enough to tag n score.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    of course JE flew out to leftfield very much deep enough to tag n score.



    And Verlander would have pitched him differently with a man on third.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    You may not believe it, but thats good.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from chetgnat. Show chetgnat's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    You should bunt in that spot unless you have a super hot hitter at the plate.

     

    Against a top-notch pitcher who is nearly unhittable, with a guy at the plate who has looked completely all series, you bunt 100% of the time, even if it requires a pinch hitter to do it.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    of course JE flew out to leftfield very much deep enough to tag n score.



    And Verlander would have pitched him differently with a man on third.

     




    of course.  maybe the pitch is a tiny bit "fatter" because:  man on 3rd and it's driven to a gap.   the point of my post wasnt really about what JE did....it's what the batter before him didn't do.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to chetgnat's comment:

    You should bunt in that spot unless you have a super hot hitter at the plate. 

    Against a top-notch pitcher who is nearly unhittable, with a guy at the plate who has looked completely all series, you bunt 100% of the time, even if it requires a pinch hitter to do it.



    100% of the time?  Nonsense.

    There's a reason we're the ones watching the game and Farrell is managing it.  You think he doesn't know all the stats on this stuff?  Please. 

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    It might be worth noting - the Tigers had 2 opportunities yesterday with a runner on third and one out (5th inning and 8th inning).  And the results were:

    1) Strikeout.

    2) Strikeout.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    Never 100%, I'm sure nobody is debating that.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenwellforpresident. Show greenwellforpresident's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    Verlander had 2 sacrifice hits against him all year.  Doesn't sound like "100% " to me.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    It might be worth noting - the Tigers had 2 opportunities yesterday with a runner on third and one out (5th inning and 8th inning).  And the results were:

    1) Strikeout.

    2) Strikeout.




    100% worth noting.  but i would certainly rather take my hacks with a runner on 3rd with 1 out instead of a runner on 2nd with 1 out.  and in effect, by WMB not bunting or grounder to right side - that is exactly what transpired.  I get that the BJames philosophy is to not give up any outs.  sacrifices are pure evil.  but in the 8th inning of an ALCS 1 run game against a dominate right with a righty up at bat that hasnt been squaring the ball up for sometime...you have to put that philosophy aside for a moment...and you HAVE to move that runner to 3rd with the first out of the inning.

    just my opinion and by bunting him over there is no guarantee that JE does his job and gets him in.  but i think the % is better.

      in the end we didnt need that insurance run, but it sure would be nice to have gotten it.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Small Ball

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:

    it's easier to score with a guy at 3rd base w/ 1 out then 2nd base w/ no out



    Do you have the actual stats on that though?  Here's what I think the stats say:

    1) Yes, you have a slightly higher chance of scoring 1 run.

    2) You have a reduced chance of scoring more than 1 run.

    But even that is all based simply on the averages, which means all hitters and all pitchers, and does not necessarily reflect the chances when you're facing Verlander. 

     




    First, small ball by definition, means we are only playing for the 1 run.  1 run lately = 2 these days.....

    So......

    I don't have stats.  I didn't say the "odds are greater", what I said is that it is easier.  You can score a run w/ a man on 3rd w/o the benefit of a hit.  From 2b, you need a hit.  Also, w/ a man on 3rd they bring the IF in and that improves guys BA too - don't forget that.....

     

     
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