So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:



    I agree that Sutton is not very good-but he is a better choice than WMB for two reasons: first, he will hit the baseball better in the short term and second, WMB is potentially our future 3B and sorely needs some intensive coaching in the minors to fix his swing. Boggy was just promoted to AAA and hasn't played much 3B at all. He too would benefit from some time in the minors this year. Its all about the future now, probably 2015. I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year.




    OK.  Who are you, and how did you manage to sign in using Pumpsie's account?  Smile

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    I really am kinda indifferent but if this was the angle they went (which it won't be) then why would Sutton be used over Snyder???

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    I really am kinda indifferent but if this was the angle they went (which it won't be) then why would Sutton be used over Snyder???




    Snyder is fine too. He is not our future 3B. Right now our future 3B is riding the pine when he should be getting intensive coaching in the minors to repair his swing. He should be given every chance to succeed, and riding the pine is not the answer and neither, IMO, is continuing to fail as a hitter the way he is now.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     



    I wish I could agree with this, but I can't.  Our pitching is not "mediocre at best".  It's mediocre at WORST.  Lester his struggling but he pitched five good innings in his last start.  Unfortunately he pitched SIX innings, but that doesn't negate the first five.  At this point he's only one inning away from what I see as "acceptable" and I can live with that.. for now.

    Buch's condition is problematic but when he's "on" he's Cy Young material this year.  I think the Sox are doing a the right thing by not risking aggravating whatever his problem is.

    Lackey is a stud.  Realisticaly maybe our #1 or #2.  End of story.

    Our 4 & 5 aren't doing a bad job.  They're just not a 1 or 2 - and whose is??  If they were 1's or 2's the wouldn't be fives!  They keep the team in nearly every game.

    You really need to not base your posts on one pitcher who is struggling BIG TIME.  Yes, we need a real closer.  But our setup guys are doing the job.  Drop Papelbon into this BP and it's Lights Out! (and I'm not advocating getting Paps.  That's for another thread.  Just sayin'.) 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     



    I wish I could agree with this, but I can't.  Our pitching is not "mediocre at best".  It's mediocre at WORST.  Lester his struggling but he pitched five good innings in his last start.  Unfortunately he pitched SIX innings, but that doesn't negate the first five.  At this point he's only one inning away from what I see as "acceptable" and I can live with that.. for now.

     

    Buch's condition is problematic but when he's "on" he's Cy Young material this year.  I think the Sox are doing a the right thing by not risking aggravating whatever his problem is.

    Lackey is a stud.  Realisticaly maybe our #1 or #2.  End of story.

    Our 4 & 5 aren't doing a bad job.  They're just not a 1 or 2 - and whose is??  If they were 1's or 2's the wouldn't be fives!  They keep the team in nearly every game.

    You really need to not base your posts on one pitcher who is struggling BIG TIME.  Yes, we need a real closer.  But our setup guys are doing the job.  Drop Papelbon into this BP and it's Lights Out! (and I'm not advocating getting Paps.  That's for another thread.  Just sayin'.) 

    [/QUOTE]

    Look at this link: http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/year/2013/seasontype/2/league/al

    In it you will find that our overall pitchng is SEVENTH of the 15 AL teams-right in the middle. That DEFINES mediocrity. So no matter what you think of Lester or Buchholtz or Lackey, we are middle of the pack in ERA.......= mediocre. Teams with mediocre pitching hardly ever win rings.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     




    It's just a variation of Pumpsie's betting strategy.

    If he's not guaranteed a championship, he doesn't want to bother with getting to the playoffs.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    I'm not a ML GM and I don't play one on television, but here's what I think should be done, the sooner the better.

    This team has six "prospects" who are untouchable.  The future of the team.  JBJ,  Middy, Iggy, Bogy, Cecchini, and Vasquez.  As I said, as untouchable as anyone can be without someone here talking about a ridiculous hypothetical trade being offered. (Lee for Cecchini, straight up).

    The immediate problem IMO is the left side of the IF.  So trade Drew and anyone not on the list of six for an aging but respectable 3B who's in the last year of his contract.  Then move Iggy to SS where he belongs. Then send Middy down, buy him a 1B glove and tell him to learn how to use it.  At at the same time work the bugs out of his swing.  Once the swing thing gets taken care of he can come back and play either corner IF postion.

    While that's going on also work with Bogarts as the regular 3B, and if/when he can do the job our aging 3B becomes expendable.

    The need then becomes for a UIF.  I'm not a big fan of Drew Sutton but he's better than nothing, which is what we have now. 

    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     

     




    It's just a variation of Pumpsie's betting strategy.

     

    If he's not guaranteed a championship, he doesn't want to bother with getting to the playoffs.

    [/QUOTE]


    It doesnt surprise me that he wants to wave the white flag now and "play for the future". Or was the goal winning a ring this year with him? Not sure...Either way, He usually calls a game a loss in the 4th inning if the Sox give up a run or 2, so it is what it is.

    Like those games, theres still plenty of baseball to be played and anything can, and usually does happen. For me, Im just enjoying watching this team that everyone said was a last place team and .500 at best.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I really am kinda indifferent but if this was the angle they went (which it won't be) then why would Sutton be used over Snyder???

     




    Snyder is fine too. He is not our future 3B. Right now our future 3B is riding the pine when he should be getting intensive coaching in the minors to repair his swing. He should be given every chance to succeed, and riding the pine is not the answer and neither, IMO, is continuing to fail as a hitter the way he is now.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I know Snyder is not our future 3B, but neither is Iggy or Sutton.  But at least Snyder is getting reps everyday at 3B while Sutton has been playing a lot of 1B.  

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     

     



    In the last 10 years three of the winners have had a ranking of 7th or worse in their respective leagues.

     

    So, it's not exactly the statistical improbability your attempting to make it out to be.

    Sorry, S5.

    This was directed at Pumpsie.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     

     



    In the last 10 years three of the winners have had a ranking of 7th or worse in their respective leagues.

     

    So, it's not exactly the statistical improbability your attempting to make it out to be.

    [/QUOTE]


    30%. Seems about right for baseball where your considered a top hitter when you can hit 30% of the time.

    I also remember in 2007 that rockies winning a crazy amount of games to get into the WS. So what really matters is getting hot at the right time.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     

     



    In the last 10 years three of the winners have had a ranking of 7th or worse in their respective leagues.

     

    So, it's not exactly the statistical improbability your attempting to make it out to be.

    [/QUOTE]

    no it's not but it's still unlikely any way you cut it.  Even the team with the best record is more likely to NOT win the WS.  To some extent you do/should weigh the chance of reaching the playoffs with what you forfiet to build your team for the next 5 years. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    It's unorthodox, but Jose Iglesias and Stephen Drew can handle the left side of the Red Sox infield for now while Will Middlebrooks works on his game in the minors. Drew Sutton can celebrate his 30th birthday in the role of an MLB utility infielder.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:



    In the last 10 years three of the winners have had a ranking of 7th or worse in their respective leagues.

     

    So, it's not exactly the statistical improbability your attempting to make it out to be.

    Sorry, S5.

    This was directed at Pumpsie.




    No prob.  You may have noticed that I got tangled up in the business of posting before [Quote] rather than after it too.

    That 30% number surprises me.  I would have thought it to be closer to 10% and over a lot longer period of time than ten years.

    I guess "it just shows to go ya", that's why the play the games.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    I feel like Middlebrooks was about to get hot before he got benched.  He was 1 for 15 in his last four games, but look at the actual details of the ABs.

    6/14 - 0 for 3

    Line Drive out to RF

    Fly out to RF

    Pop Fly to 2B

    6/16 - 1 for 4

    Lineout to Deep RF

    Ground Ball DP

    3-Run HR to RF

    Deep Flyball out to Center-Right

    6/18 - 0 for 3

    Walk

    Lineout to Pitcher

    K

    Pop Foul

    6/20 - 0 for 4

    Flyball to RF

    Weak groundout to 1B

    Deep flyball to CF

    Flyball to RF

     

    There are times when he's looked lost at the plate, but he was actually making good contact and driving balls the other way when he got benched.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    While I agree that WMB should probably be getting ABs in Pawtucket, and that in the long-run, it's  better for him and the team that he does, I''m not sure that it'll make much difference to the team right now.  If he were only inserted into the lineup against lefties, his chance of success is better than Drew against lefties or the current available utility replacements.  Drew is currently hitting .176 against lefties with a .590 OPS.  Middlebrooks is hitting .234 against lefties with a .675 OPS.  Kind of a weak platoon, but probably better than the alternatives.  At least for now.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to slomag's comment:

    I feel like Middlebrooks was about to get hot before he got benched.  He was 1 for 15 in his last four games, but look at the actual details of the ABs.

    6/14 - 0 for 3

    Line Drive out to RF

    Fly out to RF

    Pop Fly to 2B

    6/16 - 1 for 4

    Lineout to Deep RF

    Ground Ball DP

    3-Run HR to RF

    Deep Flyball out to Center-Right

    6/18 - 0 for 3

    Walk

    Lineout to Pitcher

    K

    Pop Foul

    6/20 - 0 for 4

    Flyball to RF

    Weak groundout to 1B

    Deep flyball to CF

    Flyball to RF

     

    There are times when he's looked lost at the plate, but he was actually making good contact and driving balls the other way when he got benched.

     



    I noticed this too, he was really starting to hit the ball and some of those were to the opposite field.  Unfortunately people only care about the results in the box score but if he didn't get hurt and was left in there I felt like it was only a matter of time.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     

     



    In the last 10 years three of the winners have had a ranking of 7th or worse in their respective leagues.

     

    So, it's not exactly the statistical improbability your attempting to make it out to be.

    Sorry, S5.

    This was directed at Pumpsie.




    OK, here it is. I had hoped that common sense would prevail, but it didn't. So I researched further back than 10 years to see how important good pitching is to winning a ring-the ultimate goal. I looked all the way back to 1990, 22 years. In 1994 there was no WS. Since then only FOUR teams had an ERA of 7th in their league and won a ring. We are now seventh in ERA in the AL. The average ERA rank was 3.86-top third. We are not top third. We were; now we are sinking like a rock. Our pitching is not good enough to win a ring in all likelihood. Impossible? Of course not. But I would not bet a dime on our chances.

    Here are the league pitching ranks since 1990:

    1990 and on: 2, 2, 9, 5, 1, 5, 4, 1, 2, 6, 2, 2, 7, 3, 2, 9, 1, 4, 4, 1, 8, 5 in 2012.

    See the pattern? There are four #1s and six #2s if my counting is right. Thats means almost half of the champs since 1990 were first or second in pitching in their league. If you want to win a ring, you pretty much need top third pitching to have a good chance at it. If you don't have it the odds are stacked against you. Its just the way it is.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     

     



    In the last 10 years three of the winners have had a ranking of 7th or worse in their respective leagues.

     

    So, it's not exactly the statistical improbability your attempting to make it out to be.

    Sorry, S5.

    This was directed at Pumpsie.

     




    OK, here it is. I had hoped that common sense would prevail, but it didn't. So I researched further back than 10 years to see how important good pitching is to winning a ring-the ultimate goal. I looked all the way back to 1990, 22 years. In 1994 there was no WS. Since then only FOUR teams had an ERA of 7th in their league and won a ring. We are now seventh in ERA in the AL. The average ERA rank was 3.86-top third. We are not top third. We were; now we are sinking like a rock. Our pitching is not good enough to win a ring in all likelihood. Impossible? Of course not. But I would not bet a dime on our chances.

     

    Here are the league pitching ranks since 1990:

    1990 and on: 2, 2, 9, 5, 1, 5, 4, 1, 2, 6, 2, 2, 7, 3, 2, 9, 1, 4, 4, 1, 8, 5 in 2012.

    See the pattern? There are four #1s and six #2s if my counting is right. Thats means almost half of the champs since 1990 were first or second in pitching in their league. If you want to win a ring, you pretty much need top third pitching to have a good chance at it. If you don't have it the odds are stacked against you. Its just the way it is.

    [/QUOTE]


    That's way too simplistic.  For one thing, ERA is not a good indication of the ability of a pitching staff.  But if you insist on ERA, at least use ERA+ so you are not giving staffs like Kansas City more credit than they deserve over the likes of Detroit & Texas.

    One of those #1 teams was the 2007 Sox, but our starters this year have actually been quite a bit better than that team's.  The relief pitching has been worse, but that is always a crap shoot and it's relatively easy to fix.  Bringing in a bullpen arm, or promoting a guy like De la Rosa can completely change the complexion of the bullpen, and without causing us to mortgage our future.  

    You can't throw out the bullpen entirely, but come the post-season, you have the opportunity to have your #5, and in some cases your #4 guy available in relief.  And nobody is worrying about giving a guy some rest - it should be somehow weighted down in your analysis.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to slomag's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

     

     

     

    Farrell has proved that he will use the players that he feels will give the Sox the best chance to win. Drew is streaky, like most MLB players, but has proved over the years that he can and will hit. Hes already started to come out of it, taking some walks and making solid contact over the last few days. If Drew goes on another one of his runs theres no way Farrell will take him out of the lineup, even against LHP. When he gets hot, he can hit anyone. Plus, if they are considering trading him it would make more sense to play him FT. The left side of the IF is solid right now.

    Some here may be playing for the future, but the FO and team are playing to win this year as well as thinking about the future. They certainly have more faith in this team than some here.

     

     

     

     




    I realize that bringing up Sutton is a long shot. but IMO thats the best move if the FO is totally committed to a run in 2015. Playing "to win this year as well as thinking about the future" is not a total commitment to the future. Its a different and IMO the wrong approach for a team whose overall pitching is, at best, mediocre and whose bullpen stinks. We are not winning a ring this year and IMO we are unlikely to even make the playoffs, let alone a run deep into them. Wasting this year by inadequately committing to 2015 puts off by at least another year the time when the Red Sox are powerhouse team.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    How is trying to win now not being committed to the future? Drew Sutton isnt the answer to winning this year. Right now the best players for the left side are Iggy and Drew.

    Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. They are in 1st place and have the flexability to acquire a needed player in July. They arent disrupting any of the prospects progress and development, so Im not sure how they put off being a contender for another year, 2016 by your judgement, by trying to win this year. They are a contender as it stands right now, regardless what your opinion is.

    They certainly have the offense to do it, and if they need a piece for the pen or the rotation they have the ability to make a deal. If they can contend this year theres no reason to think they cant next year, or the year after and so on...

     

     

     



    How many teams in the last 20 years or so have won a ring with pitching that ranks 7th in the league? Regardless of YOUR opinion, despite the fact that they are in first place, they are NOT a contender for a ring. They might, if they are lucky, bash their way into the playoffs on offense alone, but since pitching and defense wins in the playoffs, they won't get far because of mediocre pitching at best. I thought winning a ring was the goal...silly me.

     

     




    But..but...but ... just a few posts up in this thread you said,

     

    " I would rather finish in fourth place this year and expect to compete for a ring consistently starting in two years than sacrifice our future in a fruitless attempt to make the playoffs this year." [emphasis mine]

     

     



    In the last 10 years three of the winners have had a ranking of 7th or worse in their respective leagues.

     

    So, it's not exactly the statistical improbability your attempting to make it out to be.

    Sorry, S5.

    This was directed at Pumpsie.

     

     




    OK, here it is. I had hoped that common sense would prevail, but it didn't. So I researched further back than 10 years to see how important good pitching is to winning a ring-the ultimate goal. I looked all the way back to 1990, 22 years. In 1994 there was no WS. Since then only FOUR teams had an ERA of 7th in their league and won a ring. We are now seventh in ERA in the AL. The average ERA rank was 3.86-top third. We are not top third. We were; now we are sinking like a rock. Our pitching is not good enough to win a ring in all likelihood. Impossible? Of course not. But I would not bet a dime on our chances.

     

     

    Here are the league pitching ranks since 1990:

    1990 and on: 2, 2, 9, 5, 1, 5, 4, 1, 2, 6, 2, 2, 7, 3, 2, 9, 1, 4, 4, 1, 8, 5 in 2012.

    See the pattern? There are four #1s and six #2s if my counting is right. Thats means almost half of the champs since 1990 were first or second in pitching in their league. If you want to win a ring, you pretty much need top third pitching to have a good chance at it. If you don't have it the odds are stacked against you. Its just the way it is.

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    That's way too simplistic.  For one thing, ERA is not a good indication of the ability of a pitching staff.  But if you insist on ERA, at least use ERA+ so you are not giving staffs like Kansas City more credit than they deserve over the likes of Detroit & Texas.

    One of those #1 teams was the 2007 Sox, but our starters this year have actually been quite a bit better than that team's.  The relief pitching has been worse, but that is always a crap shoot and it's relatively easy to fix.  Bringing in a bullpen arm, or promoting a guy like De la Rosa can completely change the complexion of the bullpen, and without causing us to mortgage our future.  

    You can't throw out the bullpen entirely, but come the post-season, you have the opportunity to have your #5, and in some cases your #4 guy available in relief.  And nobody is worrying about giving a guy some rest - it should be somehow weighted down in your analysis.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that ERA+ would be a more accurate way to look at this, but that would involve more work than I am willing to do. ERA is a good rough estimate of how good a pitching staff is. I stand by what I wrote: our pitching, as currently constructed, makes it highly unlikely that we can compete for a ring this year.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: So Send Middlebrooks Down Already

    In response to hill55's comment:

    It's unorthodox, but Jose Iglesias and Stephen Drew can handle the left side of the Red Sox infield for now while Will Middlebrooks works on his game in the minors. Drew Sutton can celebrate his 30th birthday in the role of an MLB utility infielder.



    Thank you hill. I have been advocating that for a while. It makes no sense for Middlebrooks to be a part time player in Boston. The Red Sox can't afford to have a young player like Middlebrooks work his way out of a slump.

    hill - Given your stats knowledge. what player (previous, etc) most resembles what Middlebrooks has done so far. I know there is a statistical method that calculates that.

     

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