sox aquire aviles from kc

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    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc : Name people who had Navarro penciled in at SS for next season. People, including me, said that if Scutaro is let go and Iglesias can't hit, Navarro, IF not traded, should get a "sincere chance" at the job in ST.  He never got that chance at the ML level because the Sox didn't rate him as a ML regular. The club might have been right. But let's not pretend that he ever got a real chance. The club decided that it wasn't worth taking a chance to give him a chance. He played well at SS at every level and was hitting well in AAA this season before he got hurt. Then he was brought up to the big club as fodder or fill-in and lastly to be showcased.  If you knew two years ago that Navarro was a dud, you knew more than his managers in the bushes. And more than some scouts. That is, more than people who saw him coming along, and thought that he projected to be 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]


     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc : Name people who had Navarro penciled in at SS for next season. People, including me, said that if Scutaro is let go and Iglesias can't hit, Navarro, IF not traded, should get a "sincere chance" at the job in ST.  He never got that chance at the ML level because the Sox didn't rate him as a ML regular. The club might have been right. But let's not pretend that he ever got a real chance. The club decided that it wasn't worth taking a chance to give him a chance. He played well at SS at every level and was hitting well in AAA this season before he got hurt. Then he was brought up to the big club as fodder or fill-in and lastly to be showcased.  If you knew two years ago that Navarro was a dud, you knew more than his managers in the bushes. And more than some scouts. That is, more than people who saw him coming along, and thought that he projected to be 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I didn't "know" but I had no problem calling it objectively. To me, the Redsox only played the guy at SS for 9 innings this year. He was at no time this year projected realistically as having anything more than a SS of last resort chance of playing for the Sox next year. He just was not going to be considered at the spot given what they knew of him from their history in developing him. 

     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc : a 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]
    a better than average ML player.  It wasn't as though people speaking on his behalf on this board were living in fantasyland. They followed his record and listened to what people said about him. Maybe they were all wrong. Maybe you've been right all along, and Theo was right to dump Navarro.  But, as I said, let's not pretend that he ever got a real shot at a job in Boston. Lots of players with his minor league numbers -- and lesser ones, for that matter -- have succeeded, some rather handsomely, in the bigs. I'm not saying flatly you are wrong about him; you may in fact turn out to be right about him. What I am saying is that at the very least it's premature to write off such a talented young player. 
    Your executive experience is irrelevant -- save to make you look good.  

     
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    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]Hey Sweetheart, Promise4shit, I've been following the Sox since 1961, and have forgotten more than you'll ever know. Don't like what I write? Not a Theo bootlicker like you? Don't speak the company line? Awww! To damned bad, pal. Move on and read something else. Idiot!
    Posted by tbrod[/QUOTE]

    LMAO, hey look its a playground bully without a playground.
     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=d2758c82b798a89af023f25f131a4bfb&plckUserId=d2758c82b798a89af023f25f131a4bfb">
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    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc : Harny, Dont seriously give yourself credit, if you do your totally delusional and you give Burrito fuel to burn you!
    Posted by promise4you


    No, not at all. In fact, I am hoping the Navarro trade was based on on-field performance. It'd be sad otherwise.                     

    I just dont see where long term this helps the Sox, I also dont see that its that much of an upgrade. It looks more to me that they made a trade to make a trade. Im not saying that Aviles is not a better player right now but will he be in two years? If Inglesias goes down, where is the next shortstop in line for the future? I know I know, we can worry about the black hole later.
     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    To Promise4You: Aviles to me looks like a Theo gamble of a player with possible upside (at least from current 2011 production). He hit .325 in his rookie year. Then got hurt in '09.
    He came back strong hitting .304 in 2010.

    For some reason, he lost his starting job this year and hasn't reacted well to a bench role. Perhaps playing for a losing franchise has contributed to regressing production. It can wear on one.

    Taking a flier on a player like this - thrusting him into a hitter's venue with something to play for - it's worth the cost. He's versatile and hits LH pitching.
    He's a career .286 hitter. (.296 vs. Southpaws/ .296 at Fenway).

    It's obvious Boston wasn't gonna give Navarro a chance at SS, so why not give the kid a break and perhaps he'll validate the faith KC has in him.

    I see it as a good deal for both players - both clubs - given the capacity each team was deploying each player.
     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc : It's pretty clear that Theo put his money on Crawford, literally, and now, for better or worse, will ultimately have to move Ellsbury in order to pay for the contracts now on the books and ones coming up if he wants to retain players. Or maybe Theo has figured a way out. I admit to not following all the financial angles and legalities. ( An old teammate said, "I'm bored reading about money and MRI's."  Here, here. ) But right now, the best guess is that Boras puts Ellsbury on the market in two years -- if Ellsbury continues to star -- and Theo won't be able to afford him, as you say. What may apply here is the old saying, "You pays your money and you takes your choice." 
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Crawford's cost is really no different than what AGONE will cost next year in that both affect player movement. As does under-paying for Bard or Reddick.
    So Jake moves on in two years. Like Beltre, we get the two draft picks.
    We get 6 years of Ellsbury and replace him with a cheaper but M.L. ready Reddick/Kalish/??? - in the same fashion we replace Paps with Bard, after getting 6 srtong years from one of the game's best closers.

    And the picks from Paps keeps the line moving...
     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc : Crawford's cost is really no different than what AGONE will cost next year in that both affect player movement. As does under-paying for Bard or Reddick. So Jake moves on in two years. Like Beltre, we get the two draft picks. We get 6 years of Ellsbury and replace him with a cheaper but M.L. ready Reddick/Kalish/??? - in the same fashion we replace Paps with Bard, after getting 6 srtong years from one of the game's best closers. And the picks from Paps keeps the line moving...
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]
    I follow what you are saying, but though Crawford's cost will be no different from
    Gonzalez's next year, the cost for Crawford in the outfield for seven years pretty much sealed Ellsbury's fate in Boston down the line. Theo had to know that before he signed Crawford, so in that bottom-line sense he made a choice. We don't know all that went on last year between Ellsbury and the club, but it's not entirely unreasonable to think that it might have affected Theo's decision. It's probable that Theo made a judgment call that Crawford would be the more productive of the two players over time. He may still prove right, even though at the moment his projection looks a little shaky. But you know how moments come and go, and where they lead no one knows. If Ellsbury is now showing his mature self with staying power ( IF ), it will take one helluva CFer to replace him.  Either Reddick or Kalish might fill the bill -- two bills, one in right and one in center. Those possibilities are still unfolding. 
    I also understand the idea of keeping the line moving, in the near future with Bard in for Papelbon and two picks, and two for Ellsbury, etc.  And long-term if that is the pattern that Theo has chosen to follow. Then it's a matter of hoping that the replacements from within are as good as or better than the players who flew the coop, and that the picks progress in time to add strength to the big club when they are needed.  
    It's a guessing game -- but there is still something to be said for "a bird in the hand" until, I suppose, the hand becomes crowded with expensive birds.  If that happens, we'll just have to see how many Theo lets fly away.

     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]To Promise4You : Aviles to me looks like a Theo gamble of a player with possible upside (at least from current 2011 production). He hit .325 in his rookie year. Then got hurt in '09. He came back strong hitting .304 in 2010. For some reason, he lost his starting job this year and hasn't reacted well to a bench role. Perhaps playing for a losing franchise has contributed to regressing production. It can wear on one. Taking a flier on a player like this - thrusting him into a hitter's venue with something to play for - it's worth the cost. He's versatile and hits LH pitching. He's a career .286 hitter. (.296 vs. Southpaws/ .296 at Fenway). It's obvious Boston wasn't gonna give Navarro a chance at SS, so why not give the kid a break and perhaps he'll validate the faith KC has in him. I see it as a good deal for both players - both clubs - given the capacity each team was deploying each player.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]
    "The faith they have in him," but right now KC seems to be investing its faith in Escobar.  Right now. Maybe Navarro at third? I know that you and I and maybe other Sox fans will be watching that situation. Yes?

     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]To Promise4You : Aviles to me looks like a Theo gamble of a player with possible upside (at least from current 2011 production). He hit .325 in his rookie year. Then got hurt in '09. He came back strong hitting .304 in 2010. For some reason, he lost his starting job this year and hasn't reacted well to a bench role. Perhaps playing for a losing franchise has contributed to regressing production. It can wear on one. Taking a flier on a player like this - thrusting him into a hitter's venue with something to play for - it's worth the cost. He's versatile and hits LH pitching. He's a career .286 hitter. (.296 vs. Southpaws/ .296 at Fenway). It's obvious Boston wasn't gonna give Navarro a chance at SS, so why not give the kid a break and perhaps he'll validate the faith KC has in him. I see it as a good deal for both players - both clubs - given the capacity each team was deploying each player.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Well said! I always hate to give up on younger players from the system. I hope things work out well for all those involved in the trade.  


     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc : I follow what you are saying, but though Crawford's cost will be no different from Gonzalez's next year, the cost for Crawford in the outfieldfor seven years pretty much sealed Ellsbury's fate in Boston down the line. Theo had to know that before he signed Crawford, so in that bottom-line sense he made a choice. We don't know all that went on last year between Ellsbury and the club, but it's not entirely unreasonable to think that it might have affected Theo's decision. It's probable that Theo made a judgment call that Crawford would be the more productive of the two players over time. He may still prove right, even though at the moment his projection looks a little shaky. But you know how moments come and go, and where they lead no one knows. If Ellsbury is now showing his mature self with staying power ( IF ), it will take one helluva CFer to replace him.  Either Reddick or Kalish might fill the bill -- two bills, one in right and one in center. Those possibilities are still unfolding.  I also understand the idea of keeping the line moving, in the near future with Bard in for Papelbon and two picks, and two for Ellsbury, etc.  And long-term if that is the pattern that Theo has chosen to follow. Then it's a matter of hoping that the replacements from within are as good as or better than the players who flew the coop, and that the picks progress in time to add strength to the big club when they are needed.   It's a guessing game -- but there is still something to be said for "a bird in the hand" until, I suppose, the hand becomes crowded with expensive birds.  If that happens, we'll just have to see how many Theo lets fly away.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    I don't isolate CC's salary "to the outfield". I see it in team context, no more, no less. You make a strong point regarding Theo's perception of Jake, which may have contributed to the CC signing, but I think he goes there anyway, considering Redick/Kalish perception at the time and CAM/Drew coming off the books after 2011.

    We got limited time from VMART/BELTRE as opposed to Jake, but get the picks nevertheless. Replacing Ells doesn't have to be done with one individual. Theo replaced Beltre/VMART offense with AGONE/CC. Nor does one have to replicate Ells numbers in that the overall offense won't be diminished to any large extent, unless key components are injured.
     
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    Re: sox aquire aviles from kc

    In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: sox aquire aviles from kc : "The faith they have in him," but right now KC seems to be investing its faith in Escobar.  Right now. Maybe Navarro at third? I know that you and I and maybe other Sox fans will be watching that situation. Yes?
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Bet on it!
     

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