Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Why can't the Sox develop starting pitchers as well as the Rays?  in the past four years we've come up with two -- Lester and Buch -- while the Rays have brought up -- what? -- six or seven top starting pitchers?

    Their rotation costs a lot less than ours, and it puts ours to shame.

    I'm curious -- why?  Do they have better evaluators?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fourrings. Show fourrings's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    we trade ours to aquire Adrian Gonzalez, Victor Martinez etc. the sox do fine in developing players and pitchers its the free agent market that kills them, Lackey, Drew, Dice K etc.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]we trade ours to aquire Adrian Gonzalez, Victor Martinez etc. the sox do fine in developing players and pitchers its the free agent market that kills them, Lackey, Drew, Dice K etc.
    Posted by fourrings[/QUOTE]

    I was always a huge fan of Masterson and really thought we could have traded someone else to get Victors rental.
      Gabbard/Hansen no big deal in my opinion and Kelly has yet to prove anything.  Renaudo, Weiland, Miller?  Still not thrilled so I agree to some extent the Rays do a lot better job at developing pitchers every year.

    Matt Barnes, will be our best young pitcher if he can remain healthy.  Hes a smart kid with three solid pitches so hes worth wating for.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : I was always a huge fan of Masterson and really thought we could have traded someone else to get Victors rental.   Gabbard/Hansen no big deal in my opinion and Kelly has yet to prove anything.  Renaudo, Weiland, Miller?  Still not thrilled so I agree to some extent the Rays do a lot better job at developing pitchers every year. Matt Barnes, will be our best young pitcher if he can remain healthy.  Hes a smart kid with three solid pitches so hes worth wating for.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Agree with you about Masterson.  We could really have used him this year.  It is really a shame that he was traded for Martinez who wasn't with the Red Sox for very long.  Actually, Martinez is also someone who we could use this year.  Although, I am not sure where he would be playing.  He is having a good season this year. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    1) TB's pitcher numbers are helped by their home park.
        Home: 3.21/Away: 3.99  (The Sox road ERA is 3.68)
    (WHIP: 1.161/1.273 and OPS against: .651/.724)

    2) The point that good pitching usually beats good hitting always seems to become more in view towards the end of the season.

    3) TB's starters are very very good. They are also pretty young, but what makes them different from most young pitchers is that most of them already have a lot of pressure situational experience.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Myles-Standish. Show Myles-Standish's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Didn't TB get higher draft picks during all of those years and went after the best pitchers available?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]Didn't TB get higher draft picks during all of those years and went after the best pitchers available?
    Posted by Myles-Standish[/QUOTE]

    Yes, and they had a record amount of high picks this last draft! This team is being built for the longterm, but is also solid in the here and now.

    None of the TB starters are 30 years old!
    Shields 29
    Niemann 28
    Sonnanstine 28
    Price and Davis 25
    Hellickson 24
    A. Cobb  23
    They also have a kid many scouts are raving about waiting in the wings (Matt Moore).

    That's 8 quality starters all at or under 29. (5 at 25 or under)
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Here are the TB ERA numbers over the past 28 days:

    Hellickson   1.50
    D. Price        1.75
    Shields         2.61
    Davis            3.50 (I think not counting last night)
    Niemann      5.85 

    The Sox? (ERA last 7 days: 6.15, last 14: 5.99, last 28: 4.51)
    Lester   1.16
    Beck      3.04
    Bed       3.27
    Wake    5.47
    Miller    6.00
    Lack      6.99 (Not counting last night?)

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]Here are the TB ERA numbers over the past 28 days: Hellickson   1.50 D. Price        1.75 Shields         2.61 Davis            3.50 (I think not counting last night) Niemann      5.85  The Sox? (ERA last 7 days: 6.15, last 14: 5.99, last 28: 4.51) Lester   1.16 Beck      3.04 Bed       3.27 Wake    5.47 Miller    6.00 Lack      6.99 (Not counting last night?)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    are you trying to depress me????
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : are you trying to depress me????
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    Agree with you.  Very discouraging if you are a Red Sox fan. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    This Rays team is built solid. They are too far behind to really have a realistic chance of making the playoffs, but they are a pesky group of players who are trying hard not to "go away".
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from siestafiesta. Show siestafiesta's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    You can say the Rays top every team in baseball, not just us, when it comes to developing pitching.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Imagine if they just had $30-40M more in budget.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    If healthy, I'd gladly put Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz up against anyone the Rays or any other team could put out. What's killing us is the injuries, and the fact that guys like Lackey, Miller, and Wake who should rightfully be #5's and #6's have become the middle of our rotation. Given that fact, it's hardly surprising to see TB gaining ground on us. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diamondtalk. Show Diamondtalk's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]Didn't TB get higher draft picks during all of those years and went after the best pitchers available?
    Posted by Myles-Standish[/QUOTE]

    Not necessarily.    They were on the cusp of winning when most of the core of today's pitching staff were ready in the high minor leagues.     They draft well with good evaluators and don't rush their development and force feed them to the big leagues.
    Remember the name of lefthander Matt Moore who is expected to be a top rated starter.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]You can say the Rays top every team in baseball, not just us, when it comes to developing pitching.
    Posted by siestafiesta[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, we never developed Paps/Bard/Lester/Buchholz...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Myles-Standish. Show Myles-Standish's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]Didn't TB get higher draft picks during all of those years and went after the best pitchers available?
    Posted by Myles-Standish[/QUOTE]

    Did anyone read this?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    OP speaks of evaluation, but shows none. What is this evaluation based on???

    To repeat Moon's data:
    Rays pitching away from their home pitching venue:
    3.99 ERA  1.273 WHIP  .724 OPP OPS


    RedSox
    pitching away from their home hitting venue:
    3.68 ERA  1.198 WHIP  .669 OPP OPS

    Drawing any comparison now with the current state of the RedSox pitching staff is fool-hearty.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Problem the Rays face is that they can only keep their players (a few exceptions) for six years and then they can't afford to pay them.  Notice they don't develop hitters (a few exceptions) which is why they can't consistently win in the AL East.   Great pitching still needs a few runs a game to win.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]Problem the Rays face is that they can only keep their players (a few exceptions) for six years and then they can't afford to pay them.  Notice they don't develop hitters (a few exceptions) which is why they can't consistently win in the AL East.   Great pitching still needs a few runs a game to win.
    Posted by traven[/QUOTE]

    In theory you are right, but name one TB player that left for free agency and went on to do good things. In general, the players TB trades before free agency have done poorly as well.  It's uncanny.

    More PAs from Joyce, the recent play by Jennings, and decent play from Fuld has replaced Crawford's 2010 numbers pretty closely. Kotchman has replaced Pena's numbers and then some. Farnsworth is no Soriano, but Soriano has not done well this year due to injury. Hellickson and Cobb have replaced Garza seemlessly. They miss Bartlett, but being able to move Zobrist to 2B and Rodriguez to SS made the keystone combination pretty even between 2010 and 2011.

    Also, TB keeps getting picks everytime they lose a FA. They keep cycling them into their big lead club from FAs departing long ago. The ones they got in this draft will replace the ones they lose 3-4 years from now.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Masterson since leaving Boston:
    18-29.  3.91 ERA  1.387 WHIP

    This in a weak division - and in a far cry from Fenway's hitting venue.
    For this the Sox got VMART for critical part of '09 and 2010.
    And two A picks.

    Oh yeah, that's some clock cleaning.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Back to TB. Next year could be "the year" for TB for a number of reasons:

    1) They only have a few nonessential players becoming FAs this winter: all but Kotchman are easily replaceable: Damon ($5.5M), Peralta ($925K), Juan Cruz ($850K), & Kotchman ($750K).

    2) They saved money when Manny bailed.

    3) Their young starting pitchers will be in or closer to prime.

    4) Matt Moore, Jennings, Joyce, and other young stars continue to rise.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    BTW, a certain poster, who shall remain nameless, projected the Rays would win 90-92 games this year. He was ridiculed endlessly by some silly clown, who insisted the rays would win about 86-88 games. Yes, pages and pages of nonsense based on a 4 game differential in projections.

    The Rays are on pace for exactly 90 wins, and the clown has his 14th new name since the season start.

    (Yes, the same nameless poster also projected the Yanks would win 92-94, and the race would remain tight to the end. Man, some guys never get anything right!)
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Disagree... they traded Garza when they did not have to and have shown a complete unwiligness to go get that key offensive guy.

    Chances are they will trade a key non free-agent away again this winter and sign offensive has-been's.

    Too bad for them.
     

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