Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]If I wasn't a Red Sox fan for the last 55 years then I most probably be a TB fan. They seem to do everything right and stick to their plan.
    Posted by BeaconHill19[/QUOTE]

    They seem to do everything right for a small market team, but it would be hard to follow a team like this as a fan.

    They need to move to a place where they can make some dough and have a higher budget.

     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]Tampa Bay succeeded with no money, no fan support, but smart management and doing things the hard way. I tip my hat to them. Getting top draft picks year after year didn't hurt neither. The man on the street who roots for the underdog would be pleased with Tampa Bay.
    Posted by BeaconHill19[/QUOTE]

    Smart management doesn't put themselves into a financial hole by alienating their fan base. The RedSox did similar when letting Fisk/Lynn/Burl walk.
    They wouldn't give in to player demands...and they paid the price.

    Nothing brilliant about getting top picks and evaluating talent.
    Hiring Maddon was.
     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : Smart management doesn't put themselves into a financial hole by alienating their fan base. The RedSox did similar when letting Fisk/Lynn/Burl walk. They wouldn't give in to player demands...and they paid the price. Nothing brilliant about getting top picks and evaluating talent. Hiring Maddon was.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Didn't Katz finally fill us in last week with time-consuming deep research on what happened on the Fisk/Lynn/ Burleson contracts? He concluded that it was a clerical error that the contracts went out two days too late. Perhaps you missed his post.
     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    I suggest you re-read that thread. Katz later admitted clerical error was largely academic, and that others shared in FA short-sightedness. He also acknowledged how FO didn't care to be on the short side of the leverage stick.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]I suggest you re-read that thread. Katz later admitted clerical error was largely academic, and that others shared in FA short-sightedness. He also acknowledged how FO didn't care to be on the short side of the leverage stick.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    A shame that the Katz post is gone forever. Perhaps he will read this and repeat what he said.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : Smart management doesn't put themselves into a financial hole by alienating their fan base. The RedSox did similar when letting Fisk/Lynn/Burl walk. They wouldn't give in to player demands...and they paid the price. Nothing brilliant about getting top picks and evaluating talent. Hiring Maddon was.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    1) Stuart Sternberg took over the team in 2006. They went from 61-101 to 97-65 in 2 years. He shouldn't be blamed for 5th place finishes in 9 of their first 10 seasons (1998-2007) since their first year.

    2) The previous management team was not "smart". I agree.

    3) This management team has done a pretty good job building a short-term success without sacrificing the longterm. Yes, they have made some mistakes. 

    4) One can blame many of these small market teams for not spending more. It's a strong argument. I happen to think that if a team can draw enough fans to even sell out a playoff game, they should move or fold. This team has been pretty goof going on 4 years. I'm not sure you can blame management for the fans not caring about the team. Many people who live in Florida are transplants who remain loyal to the teams from where they came from before moving to FL. It's a tough market for even the saviest owner and GM to draw more fans.

    5) This GM has made some Nomar-type deals and let some fan faves walk, and that may have alienated some fans, but in hindsight, most have worked out well either way you look at it (Who they were replaced with and how did the departing players do after they left).

    6) TB dealt for Hawpe last year giving up nothing. They got a draft pick when he walked, part of 12 of the top picks in this year's draft. These kids will be coming up in 3-4 years... keeping them strong even if they lose soem of the stars they have now.

    This management team is the model for small market teams. Softy may think it is still the Marlins, but since they changed management, what direction have they gone?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]Tampa Bay succeeded with no money, no fan support, but smart management and doing things the hard way. I tip my hat to them. Getting top draft picks year after year didn't hurt neither. The man on the street who roots for the underdog would be pleased with Tampa Bay.
    Posted by BeaconHill19[/QUOTE]

    They have been really well-run, but they also had a 10-year stretch where they picked the overall 1, 6, 3, 2, 1, 4, 8, 3, 1, and 1.  The overall #1 is like the Nats getting Strousberg, and Bryce Harper B2B.  It's KC is slowly developing into.  If you average the #3 overall pick for 10 straight years, I could pick from a magazine and come up with a pretty good team.
     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : 1) Stuart Sternberg took over the team in 2006. They went from 61-101 to 97-65 in 2 years. He shouldn't be blamed for 5th place finishes in 9 of their first 10 seasons (1998-2007) since their first year. 2) The previous management team was not "smart". I agree. 3) This management team has done a pretty good job building a short-term success without sacrificing the longterm. Yes, they have made some mistakes.  4) One can blame many of these small market teams for not spending more. It's a strong argument. I happen to think that if a team can draw enough fans to even sell out a playoff game, they should move or fold. This team has been pretty goof going on 4 years.I'm not sure you can blame management for the fans not caring about the team. Many people who live in Florida are transplants who remain loyal to the teams from where they came from before moving to FL. It's a tough market for even the saviest owner and GM to draw more fans. 5) This GM has made some Nomar-type deals and let some fan faves walk, and that may have alienated some fans, but in hindsight, most have worked out well either way you look at it (Who they were replaced with and how did the departing players do after they left). 6) TB dealt for Hawpe last year giving up nothing. They got a draft pick when he walked, part of 12 of the top picks in this year's draft. These kids will be coming up in 3-4 years... keeping them strong even if they lose soem of the stars they have now. This management team is the model for small market teams. Softy may think it is still the Marlins, but since they changed management, what direction have they gone?
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    But current MGMT had access to previous draft picks/strong farm.

    In a down economy, I don't think they serve as a good model for other small-market teams to sacrifice a decade of continuing to finish last. In business, you often have to spend money to make money.

    Recessions exist because people are afraid to spend...
     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : They have been really well-run, but they also had a 10-year stretch where they picked the overall 1, 6, 3, 2, 1, 4, 8, 3, 1, and 1.  The overall #1 is like the Nats getting Strousberg, and Bryce Harper B2B.  It's KC is slowly developing into.  If you average the #3 overall pick for 10 straight years, I could pick from a magazine and come up with a pretty good team.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    KC has finished 4th or 5th in 12 of the last 14 years (3rd the other 2). They have lost 100+ games in 4 of the last 10 years (93+ in 7 of 10). They are worse now than 3-4 years ago.

    Baltimore is in the same division as TB and has lost over 92 games in 8 of the last 11 years. They haven't been above .407 for 3 years now.

    Pittsburgh lost 94+ games for 6 straight years. They are better this year, but not by much.

    Maybe they should read the magazine you speak of.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : But current MGMT had access to previous draft picks/strong farm. 

    Yes, they did capitalize on the previous management's positioning for good picks and the players they drafted. Theo used many of DanD's players and kids to trade to build our team. TB's new management has not done it on their own. They players from before them are crucial to their success, but they have a great track record of "just in time" trades, a few savy FA signings, and outright steals like the Soriano and Joyce trades.

    In a down economy, I don't think they serve as a good model for other small-market teams to sacrifice a decade of continuing to finish last. 

    harness, 2006 to now is not a decade. They have a new model. This is not the  pre-2006 model.

    In business, you often have to spend money to make money. Recessions exist because people are afraid to spend...

    That's oversimplifying to some extent. TB went to the WS in 2008 and didnt sell out. Why should anyone invest more into that losing fanbase situation? It's like trying to convince McDonalds to put a place in the middle of a desert.

    My point is not to bash them for not spending more, but that is a valid argument. The point is, they are the best model for small budget/small market teams for building consistent winners without sacrificing their future. With all the draft picks they got this year and the players they got in the recent trades, their farm is as strong as ever, and yet they are still contending with the big club as well.

    Name a better small market model.

    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : KC has finished 4th or 5th in 12 of the last 14 years (3rd the other 2). They have lost 100+ games in 4 of the last 10 years (93+ in 7 of 10). They are worse now than 3-4 years ago. Baltimore is in the same division as TB and has lost over 92 games in 8 of the last 11 years. They haven't been above .407 for 3 years now. Pittsburgh lost 94+ games for 6 straight years. They are better this year, but not by much. Maybe they should read the magazine you speak of.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    KC has had 6 top-5 picks in the last 7 years.  This is what contributed Moustakas, Hosmer and Gordon, and they currently have a top tier minor league system.

    BA has had 6 straight top-5 picks, but they've been relatively recent, 07-11, but with Matuzs and Weiters being two of them.

    Pitt has only had 4 top-5 picks 2000-2008.  they have since had 3, but it's too soon.

    KC is close enough, but none of those drafts are close to averaging the #3 pick over a period of 10 straight years, with four #1s.  that's a huge advantage.
     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : Name a better role model.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I wasn't referring to the role model from 2006 on. I was referring to a decade of one-dimensional building: The farm. Giving the fans no sense of hope every year prior to 2008 is not a good role model. It has to be fused with a element of filling voids via trades (prospects in their case) or FA.
    The added revenue could then be re-invested.

    The price this franchise has paid for these draft picks to come to fruitation is high. And when you consider they won't pay their players who opt. or threaten to out, it hardly garners anything positive, by neither their fan-base nor the players.

    Sorry Moon: That is not a good role model, and I doubt many teams are willing to purposely go down a similar path.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : KC has had 6 top-5 picks in the last 7 years.  This is what contributed Moustakas, Hosmer and Gordon, and they currently have a top tier minor league system. BA has had 6 straight top-5 picks, but they've been relatively recent, 07-11, but with Matuzs and Weiters being two of them. Pitt has only had 4 top-5 picks 2000-2008.  they have since had 3, but it's too soon. KC is close enough, but none of those drafts are close to averaging the #3 pick over a period of 10 straight years, with four #1s.  that's a huge advantage.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    Yes, it is. I have never doubted that those top picks have been a major part of their situation today, just as Dan D's "setting up" Theo was a big part of this current management team's success. Dan D provided HanRam and Fossum that brought us Beckett, Schill and Lowell. Several veterans were important as well.

    No doubt, TB needs those top picks from before to help them win today. That doesn't mean that the current management team is not the best small market team in MLB. GM's in baseball have hard time getting even 50% of their moves (trades, signings and draft picks) right. Since 2006, this management team has done a lot of things right, and not much wrong withing the framework of a limited budget.  

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : I wasn't referring to the role model from 2006 on. I was referring to a decade of one-dimensional building: The farm. Giving the fans no sense of hope every year prior to 2008  is not a good role model. 

    I am not saying the role model pre-2006 was a good one, but you are linking this management with the past one when you say:

    "Smart management doesn't put themselves into a financial hole by alienating their fan base. The RedSox did similar when letting Fisk/Lynn/Burl walk.
    They wouldn't give in to player demands...and they paid the price."

    Yes, the current team did not help by letting CC and Soriano walk, but asking them to match the Yanks and Sox offers is insane even if they weren't a small market team. They have locked up a few players longterm. The Longoria deal could be the best deal in MLB from the team's POV. You do seem to be blaming today's owner and GM for mistakes of the past. This team turned the results around in 2 years. Yes, they had the help of maturing top picks from previous years, but it takes more than 5-6 top players to go to the WS and also compete well against the Yanks and Sox for 4 straight yeras while at the same time strengthen the farm and the future. To me, what they have done is amazing.

    It has to be fused with a element of filling voids via trades (prospects in their case) or FA. The added revenue could then be re-invested. 

    The fact is, no matter what, Tb can never approach the revenue stream of Boston & NY. Even if they had a payroll of $150M/yr, I doubt a significant amoung of fan growth would occur.

    The price this franchise has paid for these draft picks to come to fruitation is high. And when you consider they won't pay their players who opt. or threaten to out, it hardly garners anything positive, by neither their fan-base nor the players. Sorry Moon : That is not a good role model, and I doubt many teams are willing to purposely  go down a similar path.

    Then, no small market team is a good role model. I asked you to name a better team model with a payroll under $70-80M. 
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    That's my whole point, Moon. No small market team is a good role model.
    The financial structure of the game is completely lop-sided with the advent of FA.
    And it is further distorted by owners pocketing imbalanced revenue sharing.

    I'd like to see what the old Ray's management would have done after 2007.
    They built the foundation. But they won't get any of the credit from the few fans that support that team. They had years of top picks. And when those players left, they got more picks. They didn't have to get into spending wars prior to 2008 because they had the farm to trade some of these picks for established talent.

    Instead,they chose to be a perennial cellar-dweller until these picks developed.
    You say the fans don't deserve that team.
    Well, maybe it's the other way around. They gave their fans squat for too many years. Not even a ray of hope, forgive the pun.
     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]That's my whole point, Moon . No small market team is a good role model. The financial structure of the game is completely lop-sided with the advent of FA. And it is further distorted by owners pocketing imbalanced revenue sharing. I'd like to see what the old Ray's management would have done after 2007. They built the foundation. But they won't get any of the credit from the few fans that support that team. They had years of top picks. And when those players left, they got more picks. They didn't have to get into spending wars prior to 2008 because they had the farm to trade some of these picks for established talent. Instead,they chose to be a perennial cellar-dweller until these picks developed. You say the fans don't deserve that team. Well, maybe it's the other way around. They gave their fans squat for too many years. Not even a ray of hope , forgive the pun.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE] Lot of stuff at play here. Whether it is the market or the location of the ballpark, the fans also don't reward the Rays at the turnstile. And just how much have the Twins rewarded their fans with the Mauer deal? 

    Also for a lot of years their drafts were one dimensional with all the emphasis on raw athleticism, almost exclusively high schoolers and little regard for maturity. It produced its share of Elijah Duke's, Delmon Young's and Josh Hamilton's. The old regime rushed a 19 year BJ Upton to MLB. They have gotten better at what they do ixing thir picks better and getting some pretty decent college talent like Longoria with their high picks. 

    Now part of your argument is small market, versus those that can go from small market to mid-market as they win, to large market teams with big regional revenue streams. Tampa unitl the market proves otherwise is a chronic small market and retaining core players even if most haven't proven to unworthy (like our $142M ex-Ray) is what that market demands. They have no choice but trade them or take the picks. 

    For a chronic small market team their model of trade early and picking well from the other guy's system (Garza, Kazmir), good bargain signings, tying guys up through their arb years and better balanced drafting is about as good as it gets right now. Revenue haring has changed the game somewhat and Pittsburgh and KC are posied to challenge that but today they are have taken over Beane's A's as a shining model IMO.
     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation : Lot of stuff at play here. Whether it is the market or the location of the ballpark, the fans also don't reward the Rays at the turnstile. And just how much have the Twins rewarded their fans with the Mauer deal?  Also for a lot of years their drafts were one dimensional with all the emphasis on raw athleticism, almost exclusively high schoolers and little regard for maturity. It produced its share of Elijah Duke's, Delmon Young's and Josh Hamilton's. The old regime rushed a 19 year BJ Upton to MLB. They have gotten better at what they do ixing thir picks better and getting some pretty decent college talent like Longoria with their high picks.  Now part of your argument is small market, versus those that can go from small market to mid-market as they win, to large market teams with big regional revenue streams. Tampa unitl the market proves otherwise is a chronic small market and retaining core players even if most haven't proven to unworthy (like our $142M ex-Ray) is what that market demands. They have no choice but trade them or take the picks.  For a chronic small market team their model of trade early and picking well from the other guy's system (Garza, Kazmir), good bargain signings, tying guys up through their arb years and better balanced drafting is about as good as it gets right now. Revenue haring has changed the game somewhat and Pittsburgh and KC are posied to challenge that but today they are have taken over Beane's A's as a shining model IMO.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    A fan base is established or diminished by decisions of management.
    Those fans for many years were given no reason to spin the turnstiles.
    Even if they didn't field a winner, they could have made a few splashes (prior to 2008) via trades or financially marginal signings. At least that would have given folks a reason to see them.

    Obviously, their geographical position and inability to compete with the division's big dogs are detrimental. But as I already stated, when you get so many of the nation's top draft picks, you have the option to trade some of them in lieu of over-spending.

    I'm not debating the fact the current management has done extremely well, only that they had the tools to work with from years of forced decadence.

    This franchise got what they deserve...all the way around.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from napalmball. Show napalmball's posts

    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Re: Game Thread - Sept 13 Jays v. Red Sox - Wakefield SP

    posted at 9/13/2011 9:00 PM EDT
     
    www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=5cfb5060c03301a49825010a3238baff&plckUserId=5cfb5060c03301a49825010a3238baff">
    Posts: 98
    First: 12/25/2010
    Last: 9/13/2011
    Wakefield  should  have  been  let  go  in  2003  after  he  gave  up  the  homer  to  Aaron  Boone.  He  has  been  a  mediocre  pitcher  his  entire  career  and  has  been  fortunate  to  play  for  a  very  good  team.  The  Yanks  never  would  have  tolerated  Wake's  mediocrity  in  a  million  years.
    On  another  topic :  Theo  has  to  have  the  best  job  in  the  world.  His  knowledge  of  baseball  is  equal  to  the  average  baseball  fan; he  gets  to  spend  hundreds  of  millions  of  Henry's  money  and  he  himself  gets  paid  millions  for  being  incompetent.  



    Best post of the Wastefield ceremonial two homer and hit batter ceremonial tour, which is mercifully finally over. The assumption is always made that, for the 55 million, the Red Sox could not have done better than Wastefield over the years. False!
     
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    Re: Sox lose to rays in pitcher evaluation

    Cut and paste clown, who denounces others of the same.
    Hypocrisy at it's finest.
     
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