Sox should DFA Wakefield

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    Now, here's another interesting thought....Did Tito have some sort of change of heart with Wakefield, maybe even had a heart-to-heart conversation with him that was never disclosed to the media? I say this only because Tito seems to have taken that super-short leash off of him last several starts....
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    moon, we do agree that there is no question the Sox made life very difficult on Tim going back to the start of 2010 ST. We really don't know if the yo-yoing affected him from a focus standpoint. He really had no idea when he was going to throw pretty much when Dice-K came back to the rotation last year. The yo-yo occurred. And really the yo-yo continued until...Dice-K left the rotation this year due to injury. But in essence, it's what happened when Lackey was signed. The moment he was signed, Wakefield became designated the "6th" starter or the "insurance policy."

    I still wonder what would have happened had Lackey not been signed. In other words, would Wakefield eventually been a hot streak last year, something that never happened for him in 2010, save for a few memorable starts (Philly). I don't like the Wakefield instead of Lackey comparison or trade-off because I realize what John can do for the team, which is throw a lot of innings. Dice-K did throw some tremendous starts, but so few and far between that we all now have to do a 20-20 hindsight on his use.

    It's better to not put Tim as an odd man out, but either use a 6-man when it is the right part of the schedule or realize someone is going to get hurt enough to go on 15-day DL (Clay, Lester, Beckett, Lackey).....I still think if you look at the whole thing, it's interesting that since the back surgery, I don't think Tim has hit the DL. If he was "hurt," he sure didn't admit to it.

    Excellent post danny.

    I think Tito pitched Wake in the mop up role until he proved he was worth a better look. It's sad that Wake has to continually prove himself to his manager.

    It's the same with many posters here: Wake could pitch 8 straight good games, then get lit up , and we hear, "He is so inconsistent" or "It's time to sit Wake".

    Just watch what happens when he has a bad game.

    The facts and data show that Wake does not get "lit up" any more frequently than most 3 or 4 starters in MLB, and some #2s. The guy has been very consistent since 2007. Even his 2010 season was not as bad as it appears (to those who just look at ERA).

    Wake has pitched well enough for the team to win in about 70% of his starts, every year since and including 2007.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]I think Tito pitched Wake in the mop up role until he proved he was worth a better look. It's sad that Wake has to continually prove himself to his manager.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Not sure what you mean there, moon.  When the team signed Lackey and brought Wake back, the only clear role he had was as #6 starter.  It was a little strange how infrequently Tito used him out of the pen.  But the bottom line is that Epstein and upper management decided to replace Wake in the rotation, putting him in the backup role he is in.   
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    I know Tito was not going to start Wake when all 5 others were healthy, but he chose to never use Wake in any meaningful situations until someone got hurt and he had to.

    I also saw Tito yank Wake too early a couple times out of lack of trust.

    I also see Tito leave Wake in too long when he clearly does not have it, and he lets up 8 or 9 runs.

    Also, I think it was harness who pointed out last year that Tito always seemed to choose Wake starts to give key players the day off.

    I think if Wake has 2 bad games in a row, Tito wouldnt hesitate to yank him.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]I think if Wake has 2 bad games in a row, Tito wouldnt hesitate to yank him.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I just see Wake's situation as an upper management decision rather than a Tito decision.  They are performing a juggling act trying to maintain rotation depth. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    In 2011, by ERA, Wake is a 3rd starter in the AL (minimum 40 IP).  His ERA ranks 41st as a starter (4.14 in 50 innings).  Wake is also 13th in terms of WHIP as a starter (1.14).
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]Now, here's another interesting thought....Did Tito have some sort of change of heart with Wakefield, maybe even had a heart-to-heart conversation with him that was never disclosed to the media? I say this only because Tito seems to have taken that super-short leash off of him last several starts....
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]May be that is because he is stretched out further now. Wake himself has always taken exception with those who believe that just because he throws the knuckleball that he is not subject to the same exhaustion as other pitchers.

    Lots of stuff comes into play with Tim. One thing is that in addition to his command in any appearance is how the umpire is reading his pitches. If he is getting a good strike zone from the umpire like he was yesterday it is going to benfit him greatly and he can go longer. Umpires sometimes have a hard time reading where the ball was at the front of the plate and call strikes balls.

    As for last year the only thing the RS did wrong with wake IMO was not being straight forward about the fact that if all 6 pitchers were healthy, he was going to be the guy in reserve. Now that the role has been established, Wake seems adjusted to it. It also helps that he is a year further removed from back surgery too. 


     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    I just see Wake's situation as an upper management decision rather than a Tito decision.  They are performing a juggling act trying to maintain rotation depth. 

    I totally agree. However, the game to game calls are Tito's. I think Tito has done a very good job with this team, but has not helped get the best out of Wake. I know their are conflicting issues here. I am glad Wake has gotten the chance to show he is still effective.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    I am with moon on this. To me, it's the front office that has kept Wakefield in a Sox jersey, not Tito. The GM understands what kind of worth Tim is to the team, but short of ordering Tito to pitch him (obviously Theo would not do that), it's really up to Tito how he was used. He has never been used properly in the bullpen under Tito's watch, which for the record, is only 2010 and this year. Why? Because he started every single game he pitched in the regular season in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009. Now the limits on Wakefield in terms of what the brass wanted out of him might have been that they were worried about him pitching effectively last year due to coming back from injury. But since pretty much May of last year, Tito totally has control over Tim's use. Everything from relief outings to the spot starts, and then the regular rotation starts. I still say Tito's quotes say a lot. He is mostly a straight shooter (unlike Belichick). He will tell you he has concerns about Tim, and has said so through the press. That's on him. He either trusts him (like he does now) or doesn't trust him (like I believe he didn't last year second half). 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]The final score should have been 12-2 but that idiot FranCOMA left old man Wakefield in too long. Wake=DFA,Francoma=Fired.
    Posted by mrmojo1120[/QUOTE]

    Give upon the FranComa deal insults. Tito has the Sox in first place with the best record in the AL, or I guess your as bad a betterdeadthanred/Softy and can't give credit where it's due, namely credit Tito with the Sox success. 

    Hetchinspete.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield : Give upon the FranComa deal insults. Tito has the Sox in first place with the best record in the AL, or I guess your as bad a betterdeadthanred/Softy and can't give credit where it's due, namely credit Tito with the Sox success.  Hetchinspete.  
    Posted by Hetchinspete[/QUOTE]

    mrmojo was joking.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    ...That's on him. He either trusts him (like he does now) ...

    I'm not so sure he does, danny. I wouldn't be shocked if Wake becomes the #6 guy after Buch comes back. Upset but not shocked.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    I can't wait for Wake to pass Cy Young .... while with the Sox, of course.

    I know that his critics will remain, but for all the rest of world to see it will remain clear to see he was a person of merit.

    I can't wait for a Softyite to remind me that Wake will never equal Cy's single season fetes of 33 and 32 wins in a season ....

    I know that Wake is an interesting option each game ... but he has proven his merit. 

    This season, we have been able to relax  even as three starters have been DL'd, one for the whole season, because Wake is pitching so well.

    You all did notice the cries of anguish over those three going down?

    I know Miller is here to step in somewhat for Clay, but still...


      Only our lost NYuck friend, Frankie, seems worried ....
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]Hehehe.  Nice one Yaz.  Good to see Wake doing so well.  I've supported him a long time (actually here, I just can't get my old account to freaking work these days).  Glad to see softy taking a LoA as well.  Sooo glad.
    Posted by HankukSox[/QUOTE]

    Thx Hankuk ..  Hey, auntie married a Kuckuk .... same background?  (French Canadian/Inuit)

    I think the Bar has rescinded Softy's privileges .... to post.  :oD
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 26RINGSANDCOUTING. Show 26RINGSANDCOUTING's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]I can't wait for Wake to pass Cy Young .... while with the Sox, of course. I know that his critics will remain, but for all the rest of world to see it will remain clear to see he was a person of merit. I can't wait for a Softyite to remind me that Wake will never equal Cy's single season fetes of 33 and 32 wins in a season .... I know that Wake is an interesting option each game ... but he has proven his merit.  This season, we have been able to relax  even as three starters have been DL'd, one for the whole season, because Wake is pitching so well. You all did notice the cries of anguish over those three going down? I know Miller is here to step in somewhat for Clay, but still...   Only our lost NYuck friend, Frankie, seems worried ....
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]
    WAKEFIELD WILL NEVER GET 512 WINS

    STUPID STUPID STUIPD
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    moon, i don't know if he trusts him, but i think the 2 stretched out starts was a big plus going in the right direction for Tito in his thinking of Tim as a starter....
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    Tim Wakefield has been the epitome of class ever since he first pulled on a Red Sox jersey. He has always done whatever the team asked him to do. He's taken being left off the playoff roster with no complaint. He's closed games. He's done mop up duty. He's done long relief. He's been a spot starter and he's been an integral part of the rotation. I for one am glad to have been able to see him play for the Red Sox, and I think he was one of the great acquisitions of the Dan Duquette era, right up there with Varitek, Lowe, Pedro and Manny. I can't wait until he passes Clemens as the all time Sox wins leader.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    26RINGSANDCOUTING26RINGSANDCOUTING
    Posts: 30
    First: 6/13/2011
    Last: 6/21/2011
    In Response to Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield:
    I can't wait for Wake to pass Cy Young .... while with the Sox, of course. I know that his critics will remain, but for all the rest of world to see it will remain clear to see he was a person of merit. I can't wait for a Softyite to remind me that Wake will never equal Cy's single season fetes of 33 and 32 wins in a season .... I know that Wake is an interesting option each game ... but he has proven his merit.  This season, we have been able to relax  even as three starters have been DL'd, one for the whole season, because Wake is pitching so well. You all did notice the cries of anguish over those three going down? I know Miller is here to step in somewhat for Clay, but still...   Only our lost NYuck friend, Frankie, seems worried ....
    Posted by SinceYaz
    WAKEFIELD WILL NEVER GET 512 WINS

    STUPID STUPID STUIPD

      I am a little afraid for you.  You are not allowed to use anything but an electric razor when you shave, are you? 

      Stupid, stupid, stupid, for real.  Read the rest of the sentence.  Not even the paragraph, but sentence.  CLEARLY IT SAYS "while with the Sox, of course."

       I even purposely added "of course."

      

      Note of concern:  To whom it may concern, please watch Frankie very closely.  He appears close to losing all connection with
     reality.  I imagine he thinks he can fly from his rooftop to Yanqui stadium in just a single leap.

       Good golly, Frankie, that was pathetic.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    moon, i don't know if he trusts him, but i think the 2 stretched out starts was a big plus going in the right direction for Tito in his thinking of Tim as a starter....

    I agree danny, but feel that Wake had to do well those two "stretched out" starts to remain in "Tito's favor". He's maybe two bad starts from falling back out of favor and into the 6th slot.

    It's all about how much someone is getting paid and the perception that Wake is more inconsistent than most 3-5 starters.

    The updated 2011 numbers:

    ERA
    Beckett      1.86
    Buchholtz  3.48
    Lester         3.70
    Wakefield  4.14 (as a starter)
    Aceves       4.50 (as a starter)
    Miller           4.76
    Dice-K         4.95
    Lackey        7.02

    WHIP
    Beckett      0.924
    Wakefield  1.140
    Lester        1.274
    Buchholtz  1.294
    Dice-K        1.404
    Aceves      1.438
    Lackey       1.559
    Miller          1.764

    I'm not trying to say Wake is better than our top 3 starters (Beck, Lest, & Buch), but combining the place setting of each starter in the above 2 categories, so far this year these are our best starters "on paper":

    1) Beckett (avg #1)
    2T) Lester (avg #3)
    2T) Wake   (avg #3)
    2T) Buchholtz (#3)
    5) Aceves  (5.5)
    6T) Dice-K  (#6)
    6T) Millet    (#6)
    8) Lackey   (#7.5)

    I know this is a crude metric, but I do think WHIP is under-rated as a stas for judging pitcher effectiveness.

    Here's overall (relief and starter) xFIP for our pitchers this year
    (30+ IP in any role):

    1) Bard         2.59
    2) Lester      3.48
    3) Beckett   3.69
    4) Buch        4.07
    5) Lackey    4.91 (220 out or 230 in MLB)
    6) Wake       4.90 (#221/230)
    7) Aceves    4.95 (#224/230)
    8) Dice-K      5.48 (228 out of 230 in MLB)

    (Papelbon is 2.14 in 28 IP)

    Wake is hurt by his high HR total and his relief numbers. My guess is, he has the 3rd or 4th best xFIP as a starter.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    all i can say on that, moon, is that if anything those numbers once again prove Wakefield is as solid a starter as a No. 5 could ever be. There just was not an overwhelming "ineffectiveness" in his performance to ever be thrown out of the rotation in the first place. As they say, it was man-made, franchise-made, managing-made, whatever it was, it turned him into a freak show the entire 2010 season and first part of 2011. You can't use 6 pegs in a 5-hole device unless you are going to designate someone to be the unwanted 6th peg. Could you imagine a Dice-K or Lackey trying to survive in that type of environment. Everything hinges on your next bad start, or a home run allowed in the top of the 7th inning, or you lose your start because it's Wakefield who is healthy and returns from a DL stint. Just throwing that out there.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diamondtalk. Show Diamondtalk's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    Release Wakefield ?    And replace him with who ?    Or trade him with what trading chips ?     Wakefield replaced Matsuzaka.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    all i can say on that, moon, is that if anything those numbers once again prove Wakefield is as solid a starter as a No. 5 could ever be. There just was not an overwhelming "ineffectiveness" in his performance to ever be thrown out of the rotation in the first place. As they say, it was man-made, franchise-made, managing-made, whatever it was, it turned him into a freak show the entire 2010 season and first part of 2011. You can't use 6 pegs in a 5-hole device unless you are going to designate someone to be the unwanted 6th peg. Could you imagine a Dice-K or Lackey trying to survive in that type of environment. Everything hinges on your next bad start, or a home run allowed in the top of the 7th inning, or you lose your start because it's Wakefield who is healthy and returns from a DL stint. Just throwing that out there.

    danny, you hit the nail on the head, but mark my words: 2 or 3 bad starts out of a 5 game stretch with 5 other healthy starters available, and Tito will lose faith and jerk Wake back to mop up duty. I think Aceves is still in the mix to steal Wake's slot, not just Miller.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from chuchos. Show chuchos's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    Right about now I think we all agree we are lucky to have Aceves, Miller, and Wakefield on the roster.  Any can spot start one, two, or a few games and give the Sox some breating room while injuries crop up.

    Who's going back to the pen?  What a great problem to have.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    Yes, and to think some bozos wanted to cut Wake to give us less choices than we have now.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Sox should DFA Wakefield

    Aceves walked 5 guys in an inning...If it were Wakefield, the fans here would have cried, "see, see!! he can't control that pitch! The sky is falling!"...Bottom line is Wakefield is a proven, trustworthy starter. Aceves has got talent, but he didn't exactly throw well v a struggling team tonight. I'll take Wakefield in a key game any time over Aceves, who seems better suited for the long relief role.
     

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