Sox should follow Rays formula?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Sox should follow Rays formula?

    Lets face it. The Rays are doing it correctly. They have the best pitching staff and enough young hungry players to be successful. Looks like they are in position to win the east and should represent the AL in the WS. Just one of many examples of how far pitching will carry a team.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    Lets face it. The Rays are doing it correctly. They have the best pitching staff and enough young hungry players to be successful. Looks like they are in position to win the east and should represent the AL in the WS. Just one of many examples of how far pitching will carry a team.
    Posted by Hingham Hammer


    Not so fast.

    Tampa lost last night losing again to Oakland today.
     
    Peaks and valleys.  Yankees are on the road,

    Tampa is home, Yankees have a soft schedule coming up and will have Andy back.

    They floundered in August of 2009 too.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    On the trade/s.

    Good move by the Sox, will pay dividends down the road.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from blingblang. Show blingblang's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    That was a big bunch of liabilities, thanks to Theo, off the Red Sox books.  Nobody should be paid $20 million +, not ARod, not AGonz, not CC, not Pujols.  That was a bad contract dished out by Theo.  Now if only Sox can dump Lackey, and let DiceK walk, that should purge most of Theo's mistakes.

    Theo did a good job with homegrown players like Ellsbury, Pedroia and Youkilis (I miss Youk).

    Now off to rebuilding the team, and get a good manager and coaching staff.  Have waited 3 years with no post season, don't ming waiting another 2 for rebuilding.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    Folowing the Rays formula is easier said then done.

    It requires drafting and developing young pitching, few teams in recent memory have equaled their success, Oakland comes to mind.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    The Rays formula is to suck for a decade and reap a bunch of #1 draft picks, so you can contend for about six years until they all leave for greeener pastures, and you start sucking again.
     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThatWasMe. Show ThatWasMe's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    The Rays formula is to suck for a decade and reap a bunch of #1 draft picks, so you can contend for about six years until they all leave for greeener pastures, and you start sucking again.
    Posted by slomag



    Not exactly true.

    Shields was taken in 16th round in 2000. Matt Moore was taken in the 8th round of the 2007 draft, Hellickson in the 4th round of the 2005 draft.

    Nieman was the 4th pick of the 2004 draft and Price was first overall in 2007 draft.

    Shields, Moore and Hellickson were all passed over by a lot of other teams before being picked by Tampa.

    Tampa is the best organization in AL for developing young pitching bottom line.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula? : Not exactly true. Shields was taken in 16th round in 2000. Matt Moore was taken in the 8th round of the 2007 draft, Hellickson in the 4th round of the 2005 draft. Nieman was the 4th pick of the 2004 draft and Price was first overall in 2007 draft. Shields, Moore and Hellickson were all passed over by a lot of other teams before being picked by Tampa. Tampa is the best organization in AL for developing young pitching bottom line.
    Posted by ThatWasMe
    Very well said.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    In Response to Sox should follow Rays formula? : Not so fast. Tampa lost last night losing again to Oakland today.   Peaks and valleys.  Yankees are on the road, Tampa is home, Yankees have a soft schedule coming up and will have Andy back. They floundered in August of 2009 too.
    Posted by ThatWasMe
    Andy will make a difference if healthy. Losing Nova hurts. Still like the Rays pitching as is.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula? : Not exactly true. Shields was taken in 16th round in 2000. Matt Moore was taken in the 8th round of the 2007 draft, Hellickson in the 4th round of the 2005 draft. Nieman was the 4th pick of the 2004 draft and Price was first overall in 2007 draft. Shields, Moore and Hellickson were all passed over by a lot of other teams before being picked by Tampa. Tampa is the best organization in AL for developing young pitching bottom line.
    Posted by ThatWasMe


    TWM,
    While I agree that the Rays have done a great job developing pitchers. They also benefited from being in the top of the draft for almost a decade. In the end while they'd be hard pressed to win if they didn't have Price and Longoria both #1 picks in succusive seasons. It's not just the #1 picks, that gave them thier edge. It's that they selected in the top five in each round. Therein lyes the real benefit they reaped from a decade of being among the top 5 each year, it allowed them to stockpile a ton of talant throughout thier system and today they're reaping the benefits of the organizational depth of talant at all levels.

    A model that worked because they also have in place a very assute scouting and player development program. That has shown the ability to make ready player to compete at the big league level. In the end given the crapshoot that is drafting players and then projecting them to be able to compete is much easier when your system is overflowing with talant.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    The Rays formula is to suck for a decade and reap a bunch of #1 draft picks, so you can contend for about six years until they all leave for greeener pastures, and you start sucking again.
    Posted by slomag


    I agree. What is worse for their team is ownership would never dream of making a big move at the trade deadline even when thye have a huge need somwehere and they are only 3.5 games out of first place.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from JoeFoyFan. Show JoeFoyFan's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    And if the Rays do not pick up James Shields option for next year, I think he would look good in a Red Sox uniform - of course, for the right price.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    i THINK THAT YOU WILL SEE that the Sox have had their fill of FAT-CAT$ type contracts and there model will be built on speed,defense & pitching !!!!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    In Response to Sox should follow Rays formula? : Not so fast. Tampa lost last night losing again to Oakland today.   Peaks and valleys.  Yankees are on the road, Tampa is home, Yankees have a soft schedule coming up and will have Andy back. They floundered in August of 2009 too.
    Posted by ThatWasMe


    Exactly.  And while the Rays have wildly overachieved vis a vis their payroll, they've won as many championships as Beane's plucky As.

    Not that the Sox - and Yanks - can't LEARN from the Rays' formula...and both teams seem to be doing just that - but that success is truly measured in titles.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula? : Not exactly true. Shields was taken in 16th round in 2000. Matt Moore was taken in the 8th round of the 2007 draft, Hellickson in the 4th round of the 2005 draft. Nieman was the 4th pick of the 2004 draft and Price was first overall in 2007 draft. Shields, Moore and Hellickson were all passed over by a lot of other teams before being picked by Tampa. Tampa is the best organization in AL for developing young pitching bottom line.
    Posted by ThatWasMe


    I'd say you're being polite.  The "Rays got good through high draft picks" is one of the great sporting myths.

    Almost all of their best players could have been drafted by any/every other team.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    The best formula to follow is to not bring in toxic, selfish players.

    seems like they figured that out.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    Lets face it. The Rays are doing it correctly. They have the best pitching staff and enough young hungry players to be successful. Looks like they are in position to win the east and should represent the AL in the WS. Just one of many examples of how far pitching will carry a team.
    Posted by Hingham Hammer


    Come in last place for about the next five years and continue to get a top 4 draft pick and you should be fine by 2020.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    In Response to Sox should follow Rays formula? : Come in last place for about the next five years and continue to get a top 4 draft pick and you should be fine by 2020.
    Posted by jesseyeric
    You know you guys haven't beat us yet this year right?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    In Response to Sox should follow Rays formula? : Come in last place for about the next five years and continue to get a top 4 draft pick and you should be fine by 2020.
    Posted by jesseyeric
    I thought you were smarter than that. Clearly that had little to do with the success of the Ray's. Their core players were drafted in the latter rounds. The main reason the Rays are a contender year in and year out is player development. They clearly are the favorites to represent the AL in the WS. Best pitching in baseball.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?:
    In Response to Re: Sox should follow Rays formula? : I thought you were smarter than that. Clearly that had little to do with the success of the Ray's. Their core players were drafted in the latter rounds. The main reason the Rays are a contender year in and year out is player development. They clearly are the favorites to represent the AL in the WS. Best pitching in baseball.
    Posted by Hingham Hammer


    David Price - 1st Round Pick (1st overall pick)
    Evan Longoria - 1st Round Pick (3rd overall pick)
    J. Hellickson - 4th Round
    Wade Davis - 3rd Round

    Yes, Moore and Shields were late round picks, but the team is built around Price and Longoria.

    The Rays do develop their later round picks better than most, but those first 5 rounds are important and Tampa did well in the first half of the last decade drafting.

    Red Sox are a big market team - you can learn from other teams, but it is not a guarantee that what works for one will work for another. Sox cannot afford to go into a three year rebuilding mode. Their TV revenues are too high and they cannot afford to lose that.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    The Rays have 1 WS appearance...that is all.
     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Sox should follow Rays formula?

    Clearly the Sox have learned that overpaying for talent on the FA market can set you back if you don't get the right guys.  If the Dodgers weren't in buying mode right now, the Sox would be faced with trading Beckett for a bag of baseballs while eating most of his contract.  Crawford may have eventually settled in, but he was drastically overpaid based on his production.  Gonzalez was a nice player but they can get someone to play first and give them 80% of Gonzalez's production at like half the cost. 

    It's up to Ben to get the right guys and rebuild around a core group still in place (Lester, Buch, Pedey, Papi, Ells).  I hope Ben builds through the draft and makes judicious trades for guys that add to the core and aren't wildly overpaid.  The Sox may be a year or two off from being back in the playoff hunt, but I'd take a down year or two rather than watching the miserable squad that made me dislike this team for the first time in a long time.    
     
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