Striking out

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    So what would your conclusion be, Hill, seeing all the numbers?

    Are in fact K's overrated? Whats your view?



    I don't have a clear opinion, but I suspect fans exaggerate the negative impact of a strikeout because of the adverse emotional response the strikeout evokes.

    The bottom line is the team hitting generally wants to avoid outs and a strikeout is an out (in all but rare circumstances).

    http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=27110259&c_id=mlb

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from xdrive. Show xdrive's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    There seems to be a current belief around baseball that strikeouts are okay. No different than any other out. Some attribute this to the moneyball philosophy. I strongly disagree. On any ball put into play , something good may happen. On a strikeout , nothing good happens. It used to be that a strikeout was embarrassing unless you were a big time home run hitter. Now it is becoming almost acceptable. The Sox are striking out at an alarming rate.  We have some guys who , with two strikes , are very likely to strike out. It is almost expected. None of them are breaking any home run records , to say the least. I think it is important to protect the plate with two strikes. Put the ball in play. Something might come of it. Our hitters have got to focus on making contact. Cut down on the K's.   What say you ? 



    i have to agree, sometimes some guys really need to shorten up the swing and do anything but strike out but they dont and i cant figure out why people would rather strike out when sometimes a ground ball somewhere moves a runner or even scores a run

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: Striking out

    I've said it before, but I believe it bears repeating here.  Time after time it seems the Sox take strike one, more often than not a fastball over the heart of the plate. So many of those at bats result in strike outs or weak ground outs that one would think they'd change their approach and swing at the first good pitch they see rather than allowing themselves to fall behind 0-1 or 0-2. Anyone scouting this team knows they can pretty much get away with that first pitch meatball against most players on this team. Working the count is just not working right now. Isn't it about time to change things up and come out swinging? Just once can't Ells swing at the first pitch of the game?  Of Ricky Henderson's 81 leadoff HR's, I'm guessing a few came off of that first pitch.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to hill55's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    So what would your conclusion be, Hill, seeing all the numbers?

     

    Are in fact K's overrated? Whats your view?



    I don't have a clear opinion, but I suspect fans exaggerate the negative impact of a strikeout because of the adverse emotional response the strikeout evokes.

     

    The bottom line is the team hitting generally wants to avoid outs and a strikeout is an out (in all but rare circumstances).

    http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=27110259&c_id=mlb

     




    I agree. I dont get so upset with a K like some. I understand both sides of the arguement. It really depends on the situation. Thanks.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to joel49's comment:

    I've said it before, but I believe it bears repeating here.  Time after time it seems the Sox take strike one, more often than not a fastball over the heart of the plate. So many of those at bats result in strike outs or weak ground outs that one would think they'd change their approach and swing at the first good pitch they see rather than allowing themselves to fall behind 0-1 or 0-2. Anyone scouting this team knows they can pretty much get away with that first pitch meatball against most players on this team. Working the count is just not working right now. Isn't it about time to change things up and come out swinging? Just once can't Ells swing at the first pitch of the game?  Of Ricky Henderson's 81 leadoff HR's, I'm guessing a few came off of that first pitch.




    I agree joel that the batters approach should change based on the pitchers tendencies. If you have a guy whos well known for throwing one right down the pipe on pitch one, Id say be ready to swing. make HIM change his game and throw him off a little.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to joel49's comment:

    I've said it before, but I believe it bears repeating here.  Time after time it seems the Sox take strike one, more often than not a fastball over the heart of the plate. So many of those at bats result in strike outs or weak ground outs that one would think they'd change their approach and swing at the first good pitch they see rather than allowing themselves to fall behind 0-1 or 0-2. Anyone scouting this team knows they can pretty much get away with that first pitch meatball against most players on this team. Working the count is just not working right now. Isn't it about time to change things up and come out swinging? Just once can't Ells swing at the first pitch of the game?  Of Ricky Henderson's 81 leadoff HR's, I'm guessing a few came off of that first pitch.




    The tactic of working the count has had some success and has grown in popularity. I think maybe it has been taken to the extreme. There are very few hitters who are good two strike hitters. The overall B.A. with two strikes is very low. The idea of getting a starting pitcher's pitch count up and getting into the bullpen does not often work out either.  Most good teams have a number of good bullpen arms who can each shut you down for an inning or two.  The game is always changing , and adjustments in strategy have to be made.  All pitchers know the value of getting strike one and getting ahead of the hitter. At the very least , the hitters need to let the pitcher know that it will not be that easy.  Working the count may be the current trend , but sometimes you have to be more aggressive. The first pitch may well be the best pitch you are going to get to hit.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to joel49's comment:

     

    I've said it before, but I believe it bears repeating here.  Time after time it seems the Sox take strike one, more often than not a fastball over the heart of the plate. So many of those at bats result in strike outs or weak ground outs that one would think they'd change their approach and swing at the first good pitch they see rather than allowing themselves to fall behind 0-1 or 0-2. Anyone scouting this team knows they can pretty much get away with that first pitch meatball against most players on this team. Working the count is just not working right now. Isn't it about time to change things up and come out swinging? Just once can't Ells swing at the first pitch of the game?  Of Ricky Henderson's 81 leadoff HR's, I'm guessing a few came off of that first pitch.

     




    I agree joel that the batters approach should change based on the pitchers tendencies. If you have a guy whos well known for throwing one right down the pipe on pitch one, Id say be ready to swing. make HIM change his game and throw him off a little.

     




    Right, SP, or at the very least change, things up the second time through the order if your guys are consistently going down 0-1.  I don't even see that adjustment being made.   The last time the Sox were in the playoffs against the Angels in 2009, they allowed Jered Weaver to pour in fourteen straight first pitch strikes before finally swinging at a first pitch.  The result - two hits over 7 1/3 innings in a 4-1 loss.  I mean, what does it take?  As the adage goes, the more things change, the more they stay the same.  I was hoping that when Dave Magadan left, we might be seeing a more aggressive approach.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to joel49's comment:

     

    I've said it before, but I believe it bears repeating here.  Time after time it seems the Sox take strike one, more often than not a fastball over the heart of the plate. So many of those at bats result in strike outs or weak ground outs that one would think they'd change their approach and swing at the first good pitch they see rather than allowing themselves to fall behind 0-1 or 0-2. Anyone scouting this team knows they can pretty much get away with that first pitch meatball against most players on this team. Working the count is just not working right now. Isn't it about time to change things up and come out swinging? Just once can't Ells swing at the first pitch of the game?  Of Ricky Henderson's 81 leadoff HR's, I'm guessing a few came off of that first pitch.

     




    The tactic of working the count has had some success and has grown in popularity. I think maybe it has been taken to the extreme. There are very few hitters who are good two strike hitters. The overall B.A. with two strikes is very low. The idea of getting a starting pitcher's pitch count up and getting into the bullpen does not often work out either.  Most good teams have a number of good bullpen arms who can each shut you down for an inning or two.  The game is always changing , and adjustments in strategy have to be made.  All pitchers know the value of getting strike one and getting ahead of the hitter. At the very least , the hitters need to let the pitcher know that it will not be that easy.  Working the count may be the current trend , but sometimes you have to be more aggressive. The first pitch may well be the best pitch you are going to get to hit.

     




    +1

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Striking out

    agreed 100% with joel and dgale

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Striking out

    Agree K's against our hitters are bad.  Ted Williams used to choke up on the bat a little when the count went to two strikes because he believed in protecting the plate.  I also agree with being aggressive when it's clear the opposing starter is, especially on first pitches. 

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    The possibility of reaching on an error is not the only benefit of putting the ball in play. You might get a base hit, even an extra base hit. You could make an out , but move up a runner. Maybe a sac fly. The double play would usually only occur with a runner on first base and less than two outs. It is kind of hard to justify a strikeout by saying " at least he didn't hit into a double play." 

     



    guess you weren't a sox fan when boggs and rice played ;-)

     

    point taken

    I was never trying to justify a K

    just saying they are as bad as some say

     

    not relevent but I always found this don mattinly quote interesting

    he said he wished he struck out more

    what he meant was he wished he swung & missed more

    because then he could get anthor pitch in that AB

    rather than just getting a piece and  hitting the ball weekly

     



    Of course.  It is always better to put the ball in play than to strike out.  That's automatic.

    The question is whether one type of out is better than another type, which it isn't.

    Taking it one step further, you create more wear and tear on the pitchers arm if you strike out.

    IRT the RS, while we are #2 in the league is Ks, we are also #2 in the league in walks, which contributes to #2 in OBP.

    Or, compared to our chief rival, the RS have 57 more Ks and 31 more walks, which seems pretty reasonable.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     


    Of course.  It is always better to put the ball in play than to strike out.  That's automatic.

     

    The question is whether one type of out is better than another type, which it isn't.

    Taking it one step further, you create more wear and tear on the pitchers arm if you strike out.

    IRT the RS, while we are #2 in the league is Ks, we are also #2 in the league in walks, which contributes to #2 in OBP.

    Or, compared to our chief rival, the RS have 57 more Ks and 31 more walks, which seems pretty reasonable.



    Not all outs are equally bad. Outs that advance runners are better than those that don't. I don't think striking out really puts that much more wear and tear on a pitcher's arm. It's the length of an at bat that does that, which often includes fouling off multiple pitches.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Striking out

    I'll take a .350 OBP and 200Ks over a .325 OBP and 100Ks.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'll take a .350 OBP and 200Ks over a .325 OBP and 100Ks.




    That's not enough information to determine the true value of the hitter.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I'll take a .350 OBP and 200Ks over a .325 OBP and 100Ks.

     




    That's not enough information to determine the true value of the hitter.

     



    Yes, and so does saying striking out too much is a bad thing. 

    I'll take a .400 hitter (and .400 OBP) with a K rate of 60% over a .395 hitter (and .395 OBP) with a K rate of 5%. Same HRs, same 2Bs, same 3Bs, same RBIs...

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'll take a .350 OBP and 200Ks over a .325 OBP and 100Ks.




    How about this comparison? A .350 OBP with 200 K's vs. a .350 OBP with 100 K's. Do you have a preference there?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I'll take a .350 OBP and 200Ks over a .325 OBP and 100Ks.

     




    How about this comparison? A .350 OBP with 200 K's vs. a .350 OBP with 100 K's. Do you have a preference there?

     



    Yes, on the other thread I said I'd take the latter, however, if player B griounded into 16 DPs compares to 8 for player A, it might not be an easy call. 

    How many runners did player B advance with 100 less K's? Did that make up for 8 more GIDPs?

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Striking out

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to devildavid's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I'll take a .350 OBP and 200Ks over a .325 OBP and 100Ks.

     




    How about this comparison? A .350 OBP with 200 K's vs. a .350 OBP with 100 K's. Do you have a preference there?

     

     



    Yes, on the other thread I said I'd take the latter, however, if player B griounded into 16 DPs compares to 8 for player A, it might not be an easy call. 

     

    How many runners did player B advance with 100 less K's? Did that make up for 8 more GIDPs?



    Well, that's kind of the point. It's a bit more complex than just dismissing strikeouts as overrated. We really don't have enough data on results of outs on balls put in play to make a good assessment. When information is lacking, I prefer to leave the question open. Strikeouts can be very bad at times and not so bad at others. But I really don't know the percentage of strikeouts that are not detrimental.

     

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