Strong Up The Middle

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

     

    In response to youkillus' comment:

     

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.

    Nobody ever came back from 3 games down before in the playoffs... how did that work out?

     

    In CF we have a gold glove caliber defender.  Both AJP and Ross are superior defenders to Salty.  The only position that we lose out a bit of defense with is short, but his offense is at least as good with the upside of league best.

    I like our chances

     



    JBJ may end up being a gold glove centerfielder but not next season I would almost bet anything on this.  Anyone who watched the PS also knows rookies regardless of whether they have an outstanding year are prone to make mistakes in big games until they mature.  We saw it with Iggy and Bogy when we placed him at SS for a brief period.  My guess is JBJ will make more mistakes learning CF in different ball parks and possibly in the PS as well.

    Rookies can look poised but they rarely get over the jitters over night in real pressure situations, this is where guys like Jacoby, Drew and Ross excel over Salty, Bogy and probably JBJ as well initially.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to SinceYaz's comment:


    May I congratulate you on a thought provoking thread!  While I was thinking about your post, I enjoyed the several posts immediately after it.  I don't know that you need a pat on the back, but this was an enjoyable and thoughtful read.

    [/QUOTE]
     Thank you SY, always a gentleman, don't stop, eventually it will rub off on others.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.



    Lets grow with kids and what happens happens.... So what if no WS , big deal , might be fun to be under dogs again....Not the end of the world.... Just like Pats winning division every year is soooooooooooooo boring.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    The Sox are the World Series champions, but have done little or nothing to improve the team this off season. Will that formula work ?  Stay tuned to find out. To some on here , Cherington has made his bones , and can do no wrong. Let's see if that support remains if the club falters this coming season.

    1-Ben's support will falter as soon as we lose, and possibly as soon as we don't go to the WS.  It is not only a near-certainty, I can tell you right now which posters will be leading the charge.

    2-IRT not having done anything to improve the team, that usually goes hand-in-hand with being the best team in BB.  You have no way to go but down.

    3-And that only applies to one year.  While we will likely be worse in 2014 for starting JBJ, Bogaerts, and WMB, we will likely be better 2015-2019 for it.

    4-I think everyone has to resign themselves to 2013 being kind of flukish.  A year like Koji had almost never seen, even with cyborgs like Mo.  Since 6/10, he gave up a walk on 6/18, 7/3, and 8/3.  We might see something like that again in our lifetimes where someone maintains a 67/3 K/W over that long a period.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to donrd4's comment:

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.



    Lets grow with kids and what happens happens.... So what if no WS , big deal , might be fun to be under dogs again....Not the end of the world.... Just like Pats winning division every year is soooooooooooooo boring.



    I agree if this is the path our FO has chosen.  Thats why I don't see us possibly winning another championship for another year or two until everyone matures but even if we get a fourth ring in 12 years it wouldn't be so bad.  How many teams have that bragging right?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.




     

    Well, how many teams have had all new players at those 3 positions?  And how many of them were defedning champions?

     

    I am all for bringing Drew back, but I do not think he is the difference between contending and not.  A lot will have to go the Sox way again if they want to repeat.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxDOrtiz. Show RedSoxDOrtiz's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

     

    In response to youkillus' comment:

     

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.

    Nobody ever came back from 3 games down before in the playoffs... how did that work out?

     

    In CF we have a gold glove caliber defender.  Both AJP and Ross are superior defenders to Salty.  The only position that we lose out a bit of defense with is short, but his offense is at least as good with the upside of league best.

    I like our chances

     



    JBJ may end up being a gold glove centerfielder but not next season I would almost bet anything on this.  Anyone who watched the PS also knows rookies regardless of whether they have an outstanding year are prone to make mistakes in big games until they mature.  We saw it with Iggy and Bogy when we placed him at SS for a brief period.  My guess is JBJ will make more mistakes learning CF in different ball parks and possibly in the PS as well.

    Rookies can look poised but they rarely get over the jitters over night in real pressure situations, this is where guys like Jacoby, Drew and Ross excel over Salty, Bogy and probably JBJ as well initially.



    Drew was beyond terrible in the playoffs.  He was just as jittery and horrible as Will Middlebrooks the rookie.  Just because a player is a vet, does not mean that they are less jittery or will perform better in the playoffs.

    You also lumped Salty in with the rookies.  He is a seven year veteran and has been playing in the bigs since 2007.

    You make a good poing that rookies are more mistake prone.  I think the partial year that the Red Sox gave to Xander, Bradley is part of them mitigating the mistakes with prospects that they view as core players. 

    They like to give the potential core player rookies 100 at bats in a season before giving full time jobs so they can get used to life in the majors like Ells, Pedroia, Xander and JBJ.  Go back and check and you will see they are very consistent in this method with players they believe in.  They want to give a measured exposure to MLB to see what they have before making a trade or giving the job to the rookie.

     

     

    2008

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    The Sox are the World Series champions, but have done little or nothing to improve the team this off season. Will that formula work ?  Stay tuned to find out. To some on here , Cherington has made his bones , and can do no wrong. Let's see if that support remains if the club falters this coming season.

    1-Ben's support will falter as soon as we lose, and possibly as soon as we don't go to the WS.  It is not only a near-certainty, I can tell you right now which posters will be leading the charge.

    2-IRT not having done anything to improve the team, that usually goes hand-in-hand with being the best team in BB.  You have no way to go but down.

    3-And that only applies to one year.  While we will likely be worse in 2014 for starting JBJ, Bogaerts, and WMB, we will likely be better 2015-2019 for it.

    4-I think everyone has to resign themselves to 2013 being kind of flukish.  A year like Koji had almost never seen, even with cyborgs like Mo.  Since 6/10, he gave up a walk on 6/18, 7/3, and 8/3.  We might see something like that again in our lifetimes where someone maintains a 67/3 K/W over that long a period.



    I don't think anyone here expects us to repeat as champions. That is a very difficult thing to do in any sport. That said, winning and being competitive is better than the kind of year we had two years ago. Personally, I think the foundation is in place to be a competitive team for many years-unless nearly all of our top prospects fall flat. It will, at the very least, be interesting to see guys like Owens, Raynaudo, Cecchini and the rest of those guys come up to the majors.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to RedSoxDOrtiz's comment:

     

    In response to youkillus' comment:

     

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.

    Nobody ever came back from 3 games down before in the playoffs... how did that work out?

     

    In CF we have a gold glove caliber defender.  Both AJP and Ross are superior defenders to Salty.  The only position that we lose out a bit of defense with is short, but his offense is at least as good with the upside of league best.

    I like our chances

     



    JBJ may end up being a gold glove centerfielder but not next season I would almost bet anything on this.  Anyone who watched the PS also knows rookies regardless of whether they have an outstanding year are prone to make mistakes in big games until they mature.  We saw it with Iggy and Bogy when we placed him at SS for a brief period.  My guess is JBJ will make more mistakes learning CF in different ball parks and possibly in the PS as well.

    Rookies can look poised but they rarely get over the jitters over night in real pressure situations, this is where guys like Jacoby, Drew and Ross excel over Salty, Bogy and probably JBJ as well initially.



    Drew was beyond terrible in the playoffs.  He was just as jittery and horrible as Will Middlebrooks the rookie.  Just because a player is a vet, does not mean that they are less jittery or will perform better in the playoffs.

    You also lumped Salty in with the rookies.  He is a seven year veteran and has been playing in the bigs since 2007.

    You make a good poing that rookies are more mistake prone.  I think the partial year that the Red Sox gave to Xander, Bradley is part of them mitigating the mistakes with prospects that they view as core players. 

    They like to give the potential core player rookies 100 at bats in a season before giving full time jobs so they can get used to life in the majors like Ells, Pedroia, Xander and JBJ.  Go back and check and you will see they are very consistent in this method with players they believe in.  They want to give a measured exposure to MLB to see what they have before making a trade or giving the job to the rookie.

     2008



    Drew, Jacoby and Ross were solid defensively most of the time.  They are now being replaced by two rookies and a better veteran catcher that probably won't crack under pressure like Salty's arm and decision making in general tend to do. 

    Offensively?  You are correct Drew and Salty were jittery/awful.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.




    I agree 400%!!!!!  This is what I've been harping on since the end of the season.  Up the middle defense is pretty much the important makeup of a good defensive team.  Boggy is known as a 'decent' defender.....which means average.  Drew is an above average defender and near elite from what we saw last season and in the playoffs.  Ellsbury, while he hhad a weak arm could track down balls that NO OTHER PLAYER ON THIS CURRET TEAM can track down....Including Vic (remember the balls he could not get to when he played center near the end of the regular season?).  Obviously Pedey is great and I have full confidence with the D behind the plate.  Not the best arms but they know how to play the position and wont make as many silly mistakes as I think Salty started to do last year.

    I really was hoping the Sox would find a good replacement in CF as I do not have full confidence in JBJ.  He looked lost last year and I think giving him the reigns in an important position could be asking for trouble.  I also really want Drew back at SS and Boggy to 3B and WMB as a sub for Drew, Boggy, Papi and even Napps...... 

    That's my opinions at least.....but I'm also the same guy that wanted to sign Hamilton and trade for Porcello last off season......  Embarassed

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to donrd4's comment:

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.



    Lets grow with kids and what happens happens.... So what if no WS , big deal , might be fun to be under dogs again....Not the end of the world.... Just like Pats winning division every year is soooooooooooooo boring.




    My company has season tickets to the Portland Sea Dogs.....when I want to 'watch the kids grow' I go to Hadlock and watch them play.  I want to watch a team that's in contention every year...HOWEVER I also want them to be in it for the long haul, meaning a stron minor league with assets to play or trade if we can deal from an area of strength for an area of weakness.  Right now our farm has a lot of pitching depth and no depth in the OF and the Sox have a bunch of platoon players in their outfield now....why not trade a few arms for an established bat to go in the field?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to Kingface12's comment:

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.




    I agree 400%!!!!!  This is what I've been harping on since the end of the season.  Up the middle defense is pretty much the important makeup of a good defensive team.  Boggy is known as a 'decent' defender.....which means average.  Drew is an above average defender and near elite from what we saw last season and in the playoffs.  Ellsbury, while he hhad a weak arm could track down balls that NO OTHER PLAYER ON THIS CURRET TEAM can track down....Including Vic (remember the balls he could not get to when he played center near the end of the regular season?).  Obviously Pedey is great and I have full confidence with the D behind the plate.  Not the best arms but they know how to play the position and wont make as many silly mistakes as I think Salty started to do last year.

    I really was hoping the Sox would find a good replacement in CF as I do not have full confidence in JBJ.  He looked lost last year and I think giving him the reigns in an important position could be asking for trouble.  I also really want Drew back at SS and Boggy to 3B and WMB as a sub for Drew, Boggy, Papi and even Napps...... 

    That's my opinions at least.....but I'm also the same guy that wanted to sign Hamilton and trade for Porcello last off season......  Embarassed



    Drew was barely above average last year as a defensive player with a dWAR of just 0.6. His offensive WAR was 3.2, so most of his contribution was not from his defense. That has been the case throughout his career. In his 8 seasons his dWAR is just 0.6 on average per year. If you look at Fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4251&position=SS) you will see that for most of his career they rank him BELOW average defensively. Like most hitters, he is a streaky player. He just picked a terrible time to go into a slump last year. Personally, I am ready to give the kids a shot at it, sans Stephen Drew. 

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Kingface12's comment:

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.




    I agree 400%!!!!!  This is what I've been harping on since the end of the season.  Up the middle defense is pretty much the important makeup of a good defensive team.  Boggy is known as a 'decent' defender.....which means average.  Drew is an above average defender and near elite from what we saw last season and in the playoffs.  Ellsbury, while he hhad a weak arm could track down balls that NO OTHER PLAYER ON THIS CURRET TEAM can track down....Including Vic (remember the balls he could not get to when he played center near the end of the regular season?).  Obviously Pedey is great and I have full confidence with the D behind the plate.  Not the best arms but they know how to play the position and wont make as many silly mistakes as I think Salty started to do last year.

    I really was hoping the Sox would find a good replacement in CF as I do not have full confidence in JBJ.  He looked lost last year and I think giving him the reigns in an important position could be asking for trouble.  I also really want Drew back at SS and Boggy to 3B and WMB as a sub for Drew, Boggy, Papi and even Napps...... 

    That's my opinions at least.....but I'm also the same guy that wanted to sign Hamilton and trade for Porcello last off season......  Embarassed



    Drew was barely above average last year as a defensive player with a dWAR of just 0.6. His offensive WAR was 3.2, so most of his contribution was not from his defense. That has been the case throughout his career. In his 8 seasons his dWAR is just 0.6 on average per year. If you look at Fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4251&position=SS) you will see that for most of his career they rank him BELOW average defensively. Like most hitters, he is a streaky player. He just picked a terrible time to go into a slump last year. Personally, I am ready to give the kids a shot at it, sans Stephen Drew. 

     




    That's all well and good and obviously I can't debate the dWAR numbers.  However, I do know what my eyes showed me last year, and that's a player that made 8 errors all season, played SUPERIOR defense in the post season and when he was replaced by Boggy for a game here and there...the defense did suffer and he did not get to balls that Drew routinely does. 

    With all of that said....i CERTAINLY understand the rational for wanting to give Boggy the job at SS and WMB at 3rd...I get that.  What I don;t like thugh is what if the experiment does nt work?  How long do you give them until you have to pull the plug on it?  And if you do, who do you replace them with?  Signing Drew gives this team excellent depth in the infield and gives JF a ton of options to work with during the long season....where injuries and prolonged slumps happen.  Drew could be the ultimate safety net if he accepts a 1 year deal for a bit more then last.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    Strong up the middle usually refers to defense. However, you do need some offense from at least some of those positions. With the current playoff format, it is very tough to repeat, much less build a dynasty. The best formula is to be competitive every year and consistently make the post season. Then , with clutch play and a little bit of luck, you should win more than your share of championships.  I have a lot of confidence in our future, but I am not too thrilled with our off season . The league is very competitive. Take a step back, and other teams will pass you up very quickly. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.




    Upon further reflection, I actually think I doubt that.

     

    the 2003 Marlins, for example, added a new catcher (Ivan Rodruguez) and a new center fielder (Juan Pierre).  While SS Alex Gonzalez was with the team prior to 2003, he barely played in 2002.  Does that count?

     

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to youkillus' comment:

     

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.

     




     

    Upon further reflection, I actually think I doubt that.

     

    the 2003 Marlins, for example, added a new catcher (Ivan Rodruguez) and a new center fielder (Juan Pierre).  While SS Alex Gonzalez was with the team prior to 2003, he barely played in 2002.  Does that count?

      



    I think you may be right notin, the only difference would probably be defensive ability.  Gonzalez, Ivan and Pierre were all pretty solid in their positions and had been around for a few more years than JBJ and Bogy.  I think JBJ and Bogy will without a doubt have a few more hiccups this season than some think.  I wouldn't expect anything less for two rookies on our own field and opposing ball parks they have yet to play in.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Strong up the middle usually refers to defense. However, you do need some offense from at least some of those positions. With the current playoff format, it is very tough to repeat, much less build a dynasty. The best formula is to be competitive every year and consistently make the post season. Then , with clutch play and a little bit of luck, you should win more than your share of championships.  I have a lot of confidence in our future, but I am not too thrilled with our off season . The league is very competitive. Take a step back, and other teams will pass you up very quickly. 




    I agree.  While there were not a lot of impactful free agents out there....I do think that that more could have been done to help soften the blow of losing Ellsbury.  It's common to undervalue your own talent when you have it....but there is no bigger threat on the bases then Ells, no better person that can track down balls in Center than Ells and no better leadoff hitter then Ells. (when you factor in speed).  That's a lot to lose and the Sox did nothing to replace that.  I feel as if we MIGHT be 'ok' in center with JBJ....but we ARE NOT ok in terms of the leadoff spot.  Vic is not the answer....nor is Nava.  I like the pitchin as a whole but we are one injury to Papi or Napps from losing pretty much all offensive firepower.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from billge. Show billge's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    Agee. Different vibe with Els leading off.  I fear we will miss him.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to youkillus' comment:

    To be a solid winner, an old axiom in baseball is, that you must be strong up the middle, the 2014 Soz will be changing their starting C, SS and CF. I believe I once read , no team has ever won a WS with all new players at those positions in the same year. Not signing Drew, means we are challenging that convention.




    Ross, Boggie and Bradley all have Red Sox World Series rings.  Not much of a change and it is good enough for me. I know Ross will not be catching 162 but he will be a factor.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

    In response to youkillus' comment:


    Just researched the last twenty WS winners, the only team to change all of their starters at C, SS and CF, and then win the Series was the 2003 Florida Marlins. Ivan Rodriguez, Alex Gonzales and Juan Pierre were first year starters for the Marlins. Six out of twenty winners instituted no change at all. The most common position to change and produce a WS win was Catcher; seven times, Shortstop; 5 times, and Centerfield; 3 times. Looks like consistency at CF is vitally important. 

    Side note, the NYY will be stating a new CF(ELLS), C(McCann) and SS (JETER) over last year. 



    NOTIN, this was on the first page of the thread, sorry you missed it!

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Strong Up The Middle

     

    It seems to me that anybody bringing up Ells, calling others out on what they did or didn't say about him at any particular time, is simply doing so to be provocative.  Why on earth would somebody come to our friendly neighborhood site, where guys simply want to talk a little baseball in a safe, nurturing environment, and interject such a divisive topic?  Why?

    This makes me sad!  & I don't feel safe.

     
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