Taking a close look at the payroll

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Taking a close look at the payroll

    Here are the players and salaries as they factor into the payroll:
    Pitchers:
    Beckett $17 mil
    Lester $6 mil
    Buchholz $7.5 mil
    Jenks $6 mil
    Albers $1.1 mil
    Morales $.9 mil
    Aceves $.9-1.6 mil
    Bailey $4 mil
    Bard $1.6 mil
    Melancon $.5 mil
    Pitchers out of options:
    Doubront $.5 mil
    Bowden $.5 mil

    Catcher:
    Salty $2.5 mil
    Shoppach $1.4 mil

    1B:
    Gonzalez $22 mil
    Ortiz $12.7-16 mil

    2B:
    Pedroia $6.8 mil

    3B:
    Youk $10.3 mil

    SS:
    Aviles $1.2 mil
    Punto $1.5 mil

    OF:
    Crawford $20.3 mil
    Ellsbury $8.1 mil
    Sweeney $1.8 mil
    Ross $3 mill
    McDonald $.5 mil

    DL:
    Matsuzaka $8.7 mil
    Lackey $16.5 mil

    Minor Leaguers:
    Iglesias $2.1 mil
    Tazawa $1.1 mil
    Padilla $1.5 mil
    Cook $1.5 mil
    Silva $1 mil
    Miller $1 mil (I'm not sure but i think he's on a minor league contract)
    It is my understanding that these guys will not factor towards the tax threshhold unless they get to the major leagues

    All together the major leaguers add up to $163.8-167.8 mil depending on how arb goes with Aceves and Ortiz. And with the minor leaguers added in it adds up to 176. If we keep the minor leaguers in the minors then we are good to get anyone. But as we all know that probably will not happen. So if we were to sign a guy like Edwin Jackson that would block up the rotation along with either Bard, Aceves, or Doubront. Ofcourse we would need some of the minor league depth but I think the Red Sox could stay under the cap.
    Let me know if I'm off on something
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    Keep in mind that you can't just add up what the salaries are for this year to figure where the team is in regard to the luxury tax. It's more complicated than that.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]Keep in mind that you can't just add up what the salaries are for this year to figure where the team is in regard to the luxury tax. It's more complicated than that.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]
    Yes i know that. That is why if you look at my numbers they are not the salaries they are making this year. They are average salaries over the life of each of their contracts which actually helps us out with contracts such as Lester, Pedroia, Matsuzaka, and probably a couple more. I'm open to your criticism but i would prefer if you would check the numbers first.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll : Yes i know that. That is why if you look at my numbers they are not the salaries they are making this year. They are average salaries over the life of each of their contracts which actually helps us out with contracts such as Lester, Pedroia, Matsuzaka, and probably a couple more. I'm open to your criticism but i would prefer if you would check the numbers first.
    Posted by soxforlife22[/QUOTE]

    Seriously? You took offense to that? Geez guy, get a grip.

    I wasn't criticizing anything. I was just making a point for anyone reading the thread that figuring out how a team sits in regard to the salary cap can be complicated.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll : Seriously? You took offense to that? Geez guy, get a grip. I wasn't criticizing anything. I was just making a point for anyone reading the thread that figuring out how a team sits in regard to the salary cap can be complicated.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]
    I'm sorry if i came across harsh. Actually reading back i came off quite harsh. And i'm sorry. But to answer your question, i did this to the best of my knowledge
     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll : I'm sorry if i came across harsh. Actually reading back i came off quite harsh. And i'm sorry. But to answer your question, i did this to the best of my knowledge
    Posted by soxforlife22[/QUOTE]

    It's all good.

    It is interesting to to try to ballpark where a team is, but it can be tough to know for sure. Last year, most stories were figuring the Sox were around $165M when in reality, they were around $188M. I'll give Tony Mazz credit. He had them around $190M and was one of the only reporters -- if not the only one -- to be close.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    Miller does count against the cap, assuming he isn't released (major league, non guaranteed deal).  All players on the 40 man roster count towards the cap, so Iggy and Tazawa count.  Cook, Padilla and Silva would not count unless they make the team since they contracts are for a prorated salary of the numbers you listed, for time in the majors.

    You are also missing the $9M charge for player benefits, which counts towards the cap as well.

    Only other thing is that I think it's a bit generous calling Ortiz a 1B, when he's 3rd or 4th on the depth chart at 1B behind AGon, Youk and possibly Salty.

    Otherwise, very nice job.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    All 40 players count towards the luxury tax limit. The numbers are not figured on 2012 salary, but rather the average salary of each player's current deal. Then add $9M Player Benefit payment that counts towards the limit. Here's my lates breakdown...

     

    2012 Salary Numbers (based on average annual salary + bonuses of player/years)

      (ARBs to go in Red)

    Papi           $_____ ($12.65M or $16M or compromise)

    Salty          $2.5M

    Shopp        $1.35M 

    AGon         $22M

    Pedroia      $6.7M

    Aviles        $1.2M

    Youkilis     $10.3M

    Crawford   $20.3M

    Ellsbury     $8.05M

    Ross          $3M

    Sweeney   $1.75M 

    Iglesias     $2.1M

     
     

    Punto     $ 1.5M 

     

    D.Mac      $____  ($470K/ 1st Arb out of 3 years) 

    Kalish      $____  ($417K/no arb)

    Lavarn.    $_____  ($   )

    Anderson $____  ($415K/ no arb)

    Exposito   $____  ($414K/no arb)

    Tejada      $____  ($414K/no arb)

    __________________________________ 

    Beckett   $17M

    Lester       $6M

    Buch         $8.5M

    Lackey    $16.5M

    Dice-K       $8.7M

    Miller        $1.04M (Nonguaranteed)

    Doubront $____  ($417K/no arb)

    Tazawa    $_____  ($1.1M in '11 / pre-arb '12, then 4 (?) arb yrs)

    Pimental  $_____  ($414K/no arb) 

    Mortensen $_____ ($ ??)

    Bard          $1.625M

    Aceves      $____  ($900K or $1.6M or compromise)

    Jenks         $6M

    Bailey       $3.9M

    Melancon $_____($421M in '11/ pre-arb '12, then pre-arb or 1 of 3/4 arbs)

    Albers       $1.075M

    Atchison   $_____ ($454K, then prearb and 3 arb years)

    Bowden    $____  ($417K / no arb)

    Morales    $ 850K 

    _______________________________________________ 

    Total Signed (Avg Annual salary including bonus): $148M (22 players)

    Plus 15 nonarb players ($15 x ~$450K= $6.75M) 

    New Est. Total: $158.7 before 2 arbs

    Now the 2 Arbs left to sign:

    Papi $12.65M or $16M (or agree to a deal)

    Aceves $900K or $1.6M (or agree to a deal)

    Assuming no side deal:

    Total arb cost: $ 13.5M to $17.6M

    I'm going to assume Aceves gets $1.3M. That new total is $160M before Papi.

    If Papi gets $12.65M, the total is about $173M. If Papi gets $16M, it's $176M. I'm hoping we can work something out with a 2013 team option/buyout that will lessen the tax hit for 2012, maybe something like this: 2012: $13M, '13 team option $11M with a $1.4M buyout. That makes the salary count as $14.4M/2 or a $7.2M AVV. Let's assume Papi agrees to a deal similar to my suggestion. Our new est budget... 


    Luxury Tax Payroll Budget Total: ~$167.2M (before player benefit payment).

    Now, add the player benefits. I have heard $9M. I'm not sure if this is correct. 

     

    TOTAL:   ~$176.2M 

    That means we will probably have about $1.8M to spend and stay under the limit.

    That number could come down if Lackey's deal is altered due to the injury clause. His AVV could go from $16.5 to $13.8M. (Subtract about $2.7M from our payroll budget for tax purposes). 

    $4.5M 

    It could also go down if we cut Miller loose from his nonguaranteed 1.04M deal. 

    $5.5M to spend.

    This is enough to trade for Floyd, but probably not enough to sign Oswalt or Jackson.

    There is also the option of trading salary or cutting any player who wins arb deal (Papi?) since their deals are not guaranteed, but let's assume that won't happen.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    If Papi gets $12.65M, the total is about $173M. If Papi gets $16M, it's $176M. I'm hoping we can work something out with a 2013 team option/buyout that will lessen the tax hit for 2012, maybe something like this: 2012: $13M, '13 team option $11M with a $1.4M buyout. That makes the salary count as $14.4M/2 or a $7.2M AVV. Let's assume Papi agrees to a deal similar to my suggestion. Our new est budget..

    Moon, it doesn't work that way for the club option.  If you want to spread it over 2 years, it would have to be a player option.  Maybe 2012: $14M, 2013: $5M player option / $2M buyout.  You get a cap hit of only $9.5M for 2012.

    There aren't any AAV benefits to club options, since the contract year is not guaranteed (even if a buyout would instead occur, in which case the buyout would act to defer a portion of the tax hit since it would be charged in the club option year).
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    The other reason that my contract could work is that Papi still gets nearly his asking price ($16M).
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    Moon, it doesn't work that way for the club option.  If you want to spread it over 2 years, it would have to be a player option.  Maybe 2012: $14M, 2013: $5M player option / $2M buyout.  You get a cap hit of only $9.5M for 2012.

    Thanks for clearing that up for me. Maybe Papi would agree to:
    2012: $13.5M
    2013: $7M player option with $1.5M buyout.
    The cap hit would be $7.5 ($15M/2)
    He should not get $16M, but I think he'd take $15 as leverage against losing the arb and eding up with $12.65M. He might actually take $14.5M ($13.5M in 2012 and only a $1M buyout in 2013)

    Anyways, thanks.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]Miller does count against the cap, assuming he isn't released (major league, non guaranteed deal).  All players on the 40 man roster count towards the cap, so Iggy and Tazawa count.  Cook, Padilla and Silva would not count unless they make the team since they contracts are for a prorated salary of the numbers you listed, for time in the majors. You are also missing the $9M charge for player benefits, which counts towards the cap as well. Only other thing is that I think it's a bit generous calling Ortiz a 1B, when he's 3rd or 4th on the depth chart at 1B behind AGon, Youk and possibly Salty. Otherwise, very nice job.
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]
    Thanks for the feedback. And in that case Iggy either needs to play or get traded. We can't have him making 2.1 in the minors leagues.  Also ive never heard of the player benefits charge so thanks for bringing that to my attention. And as far as Ortiz goes i was just too lazy to make him his own group so i thought i'd get a laugh out of putting him at first
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliamsjr. Show hankwilliamsjr's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    A team with that much payroll doesn't need to save nails when repairing the 2011 broken down house. This discussion should be meaningless unless the Red Sox are worried about their image, which would be joke given what is already on the books. The near 30M for 2102 on 2 left feet outfielders is truly a joke.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    Here we go folks-read it and weep if you must, but Alex Speier of WEEI has projected us going well over the luxury tax threshold.

    http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2012/01/26/budget-isnt-problem-another-look-red-sox-payro

    Speier has calculated the player benefits add-on at 10.5 million.  That makes sense to me because in previous years I've heard it was around 10 million.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE] Maybe 2012: $14M, 2013: $5M player option / $2M buyout.  You get a cap hit of only $9.5M for 2012. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Maybe Papi would agree to: 2012: $13.5M 2013: $7M player option with $1.5M buyout. The cap hit would be $7.5 ($15M/2) He should not get $16M, but I think he'd take $15 as leverage against losing the arb and eding up with $12.65M. He might actually take $14.5M ($13.5M in 2012 and only a $1M buyout in 2013) Anyways, thanks.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    It would actually be $20.5M / 2 years, since it would be a player option, the full option amount is considered guaranteed and used for AAV.  So $10.25M per year.  I agree that Papi should get $16M, but consider my proposal a thanks for your contributions and for working with us to reduce the tax hit.  Your proposal would help lessen the burden on the budget in 2013 though (assuming he would decline the player option).  Anyway, there are lots of fun ways to manipulate tax hits on "1 year" deals.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]Here we go folks-read it and weep if you must, but Alex Speier of WEEI has projected us going well over the luxury tax threshold. http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2012/01/26/budget-isnt-problem-another-look-red-sox-payro Speier has calculated the player benefits add-on at 10.5 million.  That makes sense to me because in previous years I've heard it was around 10 million.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Might as well just call it $11M and be safe then.  Thanks.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]The near 30M for 2102 on 2 left feet outfielders is truly a joke.
    Posted by hankwilliamsjr[/QUOTE]

    That may not be that bad, although if they're already under contract, I suppose it would be a little questionable.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    mr. hanky loves to link "Jake" with CC so it appears they both are and will be overpaid.

    While it does seem absurd to pay CC & Jake over $38M from 2014 onwards, it doesn't mean we shouldn't pay Jacoby what he is worth just because we had already overpaid for CC and they both happen to bat left-handed. Jacoby does not have severe issues vs LHPs and also runs and fields better than CC.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll : I'm sorry if i came across harsh. Actually reading back i came off quite harsh. And i'm sorry. But to answer your question, i did this to the best of my knowledge
    Posted by soxforlife22[/QUOTE]

    That's the problem when people communicate in writing. So much get's lost in the translation. There is no way of knowing how a person would have said something. No voice inflection, no body language....so much can be taken the wrong way.
    You were not harsh, maybe a little defensive, and Roy came across as somewhat condescending...just my observation, but again, there is generally no emotion in the written word.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    It would actually be $20.5M / 2 years, since it would be a player option, the full option amount is considered guaranteed and used for AAV.  So $10.25M per year.  I agree that Papi should get $16M, but consider my proposal a thanks for your contributions and for working with us to reduce the tax hit.  Your proposal would help lessen the burden on the budget in 2013 though (assuming he would decline the player option).  Anyway, there are lots of fun ways to manipulate tax hits on "1 year" deals.

    Makes you wonder why we don't add player options (with buyouts) on the tail end of almost all our deals.

    Also, if the player turns down the deal and gets the option, do they go back and lower the previous year's calculation? I could have sworn the Beltre $9M plus player option $5M with $1M buyout only counted as $5M for both years.

    Could we get Papi to agree to this?
    2012: $13M
    2013: Player option $3M with $1.5M buyout.
    He would likely get $14.5M for 1 year.
    The hit would be $8M/yr. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]Could we get Papi to agree to this? 2012: $13M 2013: Player option $3M with $1.5M buyout. He would likely get $14.5M for 1 year. The hit would be $8M/yr. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    That would help for 2012's luxury tax issues and maybe reduce the rate for 2013.  But it also creates a serious problem for 2013 because we'd have $8 million on the books for a player who's gone. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll : It's all good. It is interesting to to try to ballpark where a team is, but it can be tough to know for sure. Last year, most stories were figuring the Sox were around $165M when in reality, they were around $188M. I'll give Tony Mazz credit. He had them around $190M and was one of the only reporters -- if not the only one -- to be close.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Correct Roy, we also have plenty of useless/overpaid players we need to fee ourselves from at some point.  I still look at our team as being "one good" starting pitcher and possibly a SS, or C away from any major improvement so maybe someone will rise from the dumpster collection and Lav helps out.

    Lackey, CC, Jenks, McDon, Bowden, Tazawa and others will all hurt our cause, whether it be payroll, or lack of production.  Not Bens fault, but his mess to clean up before we really improve our club. 
     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    That would help for 2012's luxury tax issues and maybe reduce the rate for 2013.  But it also creates a serious problem for 2013 because we'd have $8 million on the books for a player who's gone.  

    Yes, but if we really want to make a strong push this year AND stay under or close to the threshhold, then we could spread it to next year. We lose a lot of salary next winter, so the effect won't be as great as this year, since the players we lose do not have crucial roles now (except for Papi):
    Dice-K  $8.7M
    Jenks   $6M
    Ross     $3M
    Shopp  $1.35M

    (Possibly losing Youk at a $1M buyout or paying him at $13M.)

    The following winter we lose:
    Youk $13M
    Ells    $?arb deal from 2013?
    Salty, Sweeney, Punto
    Lester's option


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: Taking a close look at the payroll

    In Response to Re: Taking a close look at the payroll:
    [QUOTE] Makes you wonder why we don't add player options (with buyouts) on the tail end of almost all our deals. Also, if the player turns down the deal and gets the option, do they go back and lower the previous year's calculation? I could have sworn the Beltre $9M plus player option $5M with $1M buyout only counted as $5M for both years. Could we get Papi to agree to this? 2012: $13M 2013: Player option $3M with $1.5M buyout. He would likely get $14.5M for 1 year. The hit would be $8M/yr. 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    What happens is that there is an additional charge (or credit) given in the following year.  Taking Beltre as an example, he was given $9M for 2010 and a $5M player option, with $1M buyout for 2011.  For tax purposes, this comes in at $7M per year over 2010 and 2011.  In 2010 the Sox were charged with a $7M tax hit for this contract, as per AAV.  Once Beltre declined the player option and instead elected the $1M buyout, his total contract value was reduced to $10M, from $14M previously.  Due to one of the CBA's CBT clauses, a players tax hit must equal what the player is actually paid, even if that correction takes place in the year following termination of the contract.  In compliance with that clause, Beltre was a $3M tax hit for Boston in 2011.  In the end, Beltre had been paid $10M, and the Sox were given $10M in tax hits for him.

    As for the Ortiz deal, that would really come down to him.  I think that they would have settled on a deal by now if they were both willing to settle in the $14M's.
     
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