Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. 

    I'm not condoning a Dustin Pedroia trade but if it's believed he is the best player on the team the Sox should be able to ask for a lot in return. He would be the one player contenders need to get them close to  the ring. He could be the one player a team may trade a #1 or #2 plus a positional player playing 2 b  and perhaps a couple of decent prospects depending on whether we settle for a #2 starter.

    I'm thinking the Nationals might trade Gio or Jordan Zimmerman and perhaps 2b Steve Lombardozzi and a couple of AAA top prospects. Perhaps Texas, maybe the Dodgers, or the Braves.

    Pitching wins pennants and we need a front of the rotation guy. We can package our prospects or we can move our best chip.

    OR Fair suggested Compensation...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    1-I don't root for the RS to root for different players all the time.  I am a RS fan because I rooted for Yaz for about maybe 18 years.

    2-As much as I like Pedey, there is no way you are getting Gio or Zimmerman for him.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    1-I don't root for the RS to root for different players all the time.  I am a RS fan because I rooted for Yaz for about maybe 18 years.

    2-As much as I like Pedey, there is no way you are getting Gio or Zimmerman for him.




    I disagree. I think Pedroia has more value then either. Especially Zimmerman.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    There are many wins to winning a pennant.  Elite pitching is one, but not the only, way.

    Teams slug their way to championships all the time.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    a couple of problems with this:

    1) The nats have arguably THE BEST rotation in the bigs. If pitching wins championships they certainly have the firepower to do so. I doubt they would be willing to give up a top guy when they are poised to win a title.

    2) We are not getting rid of Pedey. He is a franchise player and should retire a red sox. Hopefully the next contract he receives will make it so.

    3) IF we did trade one of the top 2Bman in the league (and face of the franchise) to the nats we would have to come back with Straz or Harper. Or people would riot.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigdog1. Show bigdog1's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    Pedroia is a very good player, who with grit and passion, similar to the types of player's that the team has brought in through FA.  So my point is this, why would we trade Pedroia if we are brining in similar type of player's?  If pitching wins don't you think all of the other MLB clubs are aware of this as well.  The only way we can get a legit #1 pithcer is to empty the farm!!  Then after we empty the farm, where is that going to take us?  NO WHERE FAST!!!!  Let's stick to the plan of rebuilding from the bottom up.  Joe the main reason I have been a Red Sox fan for 40 years was I started watching Yaz!!! 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    There are many wins to winning a pennant.  Elite pitching is one, but not the only, way.

    Teams slug their way to championships all the time.



    Yanks slug their way to the AL East pennant almost every year but usually don't get very far in the playoffs because of their lack of hitting (being shut down by great pitching of the other team) or their lack of pitching (the other team getting more runs because of the Yanks mediocre pitching).









     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to traven's comment:

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    There are many wins to winning a pennant.  Elite pitching is one, but not the only, way.

    Teams slug their way to championships all the time.



    Yanks slug their way to the AL East pennant almost every year but usually don't get very far in the playoffs because of their lack of hitting (being shut down by great pitching of the other team) or their lack of pitching (the other team getting more runs because of the Yanks mediocre pitching).












    bump

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to BMav's comment:

    I disagree. I think Pedroia has more value then either. Especially Zimmerman.


    For what it's worth, FanGraphs columnist Dave Cameron in July ranked Gio Gonzalez No. 21 and Dustin Pedroia No. 34 in his rankings of the Top 50 trade values:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2012-trade-value-25-21/

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2012-trade-value-35-31/

    Jordan Zimmerman was not ranked. The Nationals have little need to make a major trade coming off a 98-win season.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    The nats are NOT giving up a 20 game winner for a 2b. People here in Boston love Pedey and for good reason. But were tslking about an "Ace" type pitcher. Right now in MLB, Pitching is values at an all time high. It would take Pedey AND a prospect to get Gonzalez.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    Pedroia is a core player and should not be shopped.  He and Ellsbury are the two guys you build a team around.

    Hopefully Middlebrooks becomes part of that - and becomes a core player.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to Schumpeters-Ghost's comment:

    Pedroia is a core player and should not be shopped.  He and Ellsbury are the two guys you build a team around.

    Hopefully Middlebrooks becomes part of that - and becomes a core player.



    Agreed, but I'd go further; while I think the Sox have put together a decent short-term lineup at a relatively low cost (in salary and comp terms)....if you ignore control and assume good health he's our only slam dunk, elite player for the next five years.  I think Ellsbury is likely to perform very well over that timespan and while Salty (and more so) Midds have potential I think both have significant flaws that they may not be able to resolve.

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to hill55's comment:

    For what it's worth, FanGraphscolumnist Dave Cameron in July ranked Gio Gonzalez No. 21 and Dustin Pedroia No. 34 in his rankings of the Top 50 trade values:





    Dave Cameron is a smart man and I enjoy reading his rankings every year. I have my own rankings and I have Pedroia 21, Gonzalez 27, and Zimmermann 75.

     

    Its close between Pedroia and Gonzalez, but I prefer Pedroia. And I don't believe my homerism is a factor. For example, I have only Pedroia in the top 65 players among Red Sox players.

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

    In response to Schumpeters-Ghost's comment:

    Pedroia is a core player and should not be shopped.  He and Ellsbury are the two guys you build a team around.

    Hopefully Middlebrooks becomes part of that - and becomes a core player.



    Agreed, but I'd go further; while I think the Sox have put together a decent short-term lineup at a relatively low cost (in salary and comp terms)....if you ignore control and assume good health he's our only slam dunk, elite player for the next five years.  I think Ellsbury is likely to perform very well over that timespan and while Salty (and more so) Midds have potential I think both have significant flaws that they may not be able to resolve.

     

     




    Middy will have to learn a bit more patience at the plate. he seemed to be doing that somewhat while here. Hopefully next season he can improve on it. He also had great defense in the minors, so Ill chalk up a couple kicked balls to 1st year nerves. Brentz is a similar hitter with a lot of power and but will have his share of K's as well. Hes had a better obp overall than Middy at around .350-.360.

    Saltys defense has improved. Thats a fact. He still needs more work, but to deny improvemnt is not being realistic. His offensive numbers took a big hit when he hit the wall in july. The guy has never caught as much as he has since coming to Boston. This year will be a make or break with the Sox for him as hes in his final arb year and becomes a FA sfter the 2013 season. Personally, I hope he does well and is signed to an extension.

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    If we look at the each of them and where they rank among like players at like positions and use 2012 as the mean. All are close to equal in terms of postional value if we use WAR as qualifier...Pedrioa posted a 4.6 WAR tied for 3rd among all 2B , Ryan Zimmerman's 3.8 was 8th among all 3B (if that's the Zimmerman we're talkin about). Jordan Zimmerman the pitcher finished @ 4.4 (12th) and Gio Gonzalez a 4.5 (11th). As such based on WAR vaules alone. One could make an arguement that they're all close to equal in terms of positional value.

    In baseball which is more valuable to a team fortunes? Having an MVP level everyday player or a top of the rotation starter? If one buys into the age old adage of "the key to winning", is pitching, defense and timely hitting the answer is pitching or As Earl Weaver used to say back in the glory days was his formula for success, was solid starting pitching and the 3 run homer.

    As such what then becomes the question, is the teams need...Trading Pedrioa for 3B Ryan Zimmerman, on paper would only help the other team if by moving one for the other you have another player with the ability to replace what you're trading away otherwise it's almost lateral...

    In the case of the Nationals given the depth of thier rotation, if they were to trade Gio or Jordan Zimmerman for Pedrioa. One could make an arguement that they added a player to their team, that improves thier lineup and infield defense. While trading from a position of strength dealing a pitcher who while very valuble, given the depth of thier rotation was expendable and inso doing improved their team.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to Beantowne's comment:

    If we look at the each of them and where they rank among like players at like positions and use 2012 as the mean. All are close to equal in terms of postional value if we use WAR as qualifier...Pedrioa posted a 4.6 WAR tied for 3rd among all 2B , Ryan Zimmerman's 3.8 was 8th among all 3B (if that's the Zimmerman we're talkin about). Jordan Zimmerman the pitcher finished @ 4.4 (12th) and Gio Gonzalez a 4.5 (11th). As such based on WAR vaules alone. One could make an arguement that they're all close to equal in terms of positional value.

    In baseball which is more valuable to a team fortunes? Having an MVP level everyday player or a top of the rotation starter? If one buys into the age old adage of "the key to winning", is pitching, defense and timely hitting the answer is pitching or As Earl Weaver used to say back in the glory days was his formula for success, was solid starting pitching and the 3 run homer.

    As such what then becomes the question, is the teams need...Trading Pedrioa for 3B Ryan Zimmerman, on paper would only help the other team if by moving one for the other you have another player with the ability to replace what you're trading away otherwise it's almost lateral...

    In the case of the Nationals given the depth of thier rotation, if they were to trade Gio or Jordan Zimmerman for Pedrioa. One could make an arguement that they added a player to their team, that improves thier lineup and infield defense. While trading from a position of strength dealing a pitcher who while very valuble, given the depth of thier rotation was expendable and inso doing improved their team.

     



    GPG + 3R HR = W :-)

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to Beantowne's comment:

    If we look at the each of them and where they rank among like players at like positions and use 2012 as the mean. All are close to equal in terms of postional value if we use WAR as qualifier...Pedrioa posted a 4.6 WAR tied for 3rd among all 2B , Ryan Zimmerman's 3.8 was 8th among all 3B (if that's the Zimmerman we're talkin about). Jordan Zimmerman the pitcher finished @ 4.4 (12th) and Gio Gonzalez a 4.5 (11th). As such based on WAR vaules alone. One could make an arguement that they're all close to equal in terms of positional value.

    In baseball which is more valuable to a team fortunes? Having an MVP level everyday player or a top of the rotation starter? If one buys into the age old adage of "the key to winning", is pitching, defense and timely hitting the answer is pitching or As Earl Weaver used to say back in the glory days was his formula for success, was solid starting pitching and the 3 run homer.

    As such what then becomes the question, is the teams need...Trading Pedrioa for 3B Ryan Zimmerman, on paper would only help the other team if by moving one for the other you have another player with the ability to replace what you're trading away otherwise it's almost lateral...

    In the case of the Nationals given the depth of thier rotation, if they were to trade Gio or Jordan Zimmerman for Pedrioa. One could make an arguement that they added a player to their team, that improves thier lineup and infield defense. While trading from a position of strength dealing a pitcher who while very valuble, given the depth of thier rotation was expendable and inso doing improved their team.

     



    It is Jordan Zimmerman that I was targeting--I think Gio might be off the table, if he would be Ben could ask for top AAA prospects as we  would be parting with our best player.. Lombardozzi though not the power threat can play 2 b and he also has played SS and 3 b. In addition he is a switch hitter.

    I was using the Nat's as an example and hoping for other  suggested trade partners that might have potential for improving our pitching and perhaps getting another innings eater that get's the Sox closer to their strength, the pen.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    Why would the Nats want Pedroia at all when they have a 24 and 25 yr old pair of 2nd basemen

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

    Why would the Nats want Pedroia at all when they have a 24 and 25 yr old pair of 2nd basemen




    The answer is simple...In Pedrioa they have a player that's playoff tested, big market, high motor, gold glove 2B 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    It is Jordan Zimmerman that I was targeting--I think Gio might be off the table, if he would be Ben could ask for top AAA prospects as we  would be parting with our best player.. Lombardozzi though not the power threat can play 2 b and he also has played SS and 3 b. In addition he is a switch hitter.

    I was using the Nat's as an example and hoping for other  suggested trade partners that might have potential for improving our pitching and perhaps getting another innings eater that get's the Sox closer to their strength, the pen.

    The addition of another middle of the rotation starting pitcher, while subtracting an impact everyday player like Pedrioa, IMHO unless replaced with another impact hitter. Doesn't help us to rebuild the team for the longterm. Especially playing 81 games in a hitter friendly park like Fenway, where there's a premium on scoring. I think a better approach would be to look at packaging three or more of our top prosepcts with say Doubrount and going after a top of the rotation starter...see the Pedro Martinez deal...

    In the end, if we simply want to be competitive and be a 90 win team that's good to make the postseason every few years, but never a threat to win it all, then trading for a guy like Zimmerman or Gonzalez is the way to go...if we want the ring though, history tells us that you have to have a shutdown big game pitcher fronting your rotation. Just ask the Texas Rangers. So in my mind, unless the return for Pedrioa is a true #1 big game pitcher (which he alone wont bring). I'd rather keep him just where he is and take my chances with FA like Dempster to fill out the rotation...

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    IMO Pedroia is more valuable to the Red Sox than he would be to anyone else. Plus I'm kind of looking forward to seeing a Pedroia Marrerro double play combo some time in the next few years.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to BMav's comment:

    I disagree. I think Pedroia has more value then either. Especially Zimmerman.



    For what it's worth, FanGraphscolumnist Dave Cameron in July ranked Gio Gonzalez No. 21 and Dustin Pedroia No. 34 in his rankings of the Top 50 trade values:

     

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2012-trade-value-25-21/

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2012-trade-value-35-31/

    Jordan Zimmerman was not ranked. The Nationals have little need to make a major trade coming off a 98-win season.



    Good writer, but that was a poor exercise.  Gio had a 2.89 ERA v Zimmerman's 2.95, and Zimmerman had a much better K/W.  FWIW, Bill James predict almost identical stats for these two guys next year.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to carnie's comment:

    IMO Pedroia is more valuable to the Red Sox than he would be to anyone else. Plus I'm kind of looking forward to seeing a Pedroia Marrerro double play combo some time in the next few years.




    Pedrioa's present value to the team is not the question in my mind...It's are we better in the longterm with him or can we parlay his current ability/value into a longer term impact pitcher that is ready to lead the team deep into the playoffs say in 3 or 4 years? As I stated earlier short of a return of a Perdo esque "stopper" or another impact hitter of equal positional value that fills a long term need I see no reason to even entertain trading him. That's not to disparage Gio Gonzalez or Jordon Zimmerman both are good young pitchers, neither are today nor will they ever be a guy that leads a staff. At least I don't see them as the equivalent of the only guy in the National's I'd even consicer moving Pedrioa for and that's Strasburg (Who Pedrioa alone wouldn't net, but as part of the package of would certainly get the conversation started)...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Talking heresy-Pedroia yes or no...

    In response to traven's comment:

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    There are many wins to winning a pennant.  Elite pitching is one, but not the only, way.

    Teams slug their way to championships all the time.



    Yanks slug their way to the AL East pennant almost every year but usually don't get very far in the playoffs because of their lack of hitting (being shut down by great pitching of the other team) or their lack of pitching (the other team getting more runs because of the Yanks mediocre pitching).





    If you slug your way to enough division championships, you will win WS rings eventually.  Getting in should be the focus.  Once you are in , anything can happen.

     
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