"Tampa has superior pitching"

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    While I too think the Rays have built a solid organization and derserve a tip of the cap...It's amazing what you can do when you stockpile draft picks for a decade and then accept corporate welfare to sign them to longterm, team friendly contracts. Enough already with the look what they do on a small market payroll...they recieve a check for more than 30M per year from MLB revenue sharing.

    Certainly a small handful of the current Rays' players are a result of having top draft picks year after year, but a huge part of their team was built through trading players just before the declined sharply, signing journeymen free agents who have career or near career high seasons with them, and stockpiling comp draft picks by playing the system better than anyone else.

    Teams like the Sox would get roasted if they ever traded away a guy like Shields, Kazmir, Garza, and Bartlett, but those trades are part of what has kept them doing so well while remaining positioned to be good for years to come- even at a low payroll budget.

    This team lost Shields, had some key players injured this year, and an off year from Hellickson, and yet they are still one of the best teams in MLB.

    Moore was drafted in the 8th round. Cobb in the 4th.  Jennings in the 10th. They got Archer and others for Garza, Alex Torres and Sean Rodriguez for Kazmir, Myers and a couple other nice prospects for Shields, and Gomes and Ramos for Bartlett. Edwin Jackson for Matt Joyce. Dietrich for Escobar. Lobaton off waivers from the Padres. Key signings like Loney, Rodney, Kelly Johnson, Molina and others have helped as well.

    Yes, Longoria and Price were top picks. Yes, they are a huge part of this team's sucess. But, they are much more than just these two guys.

    As I told softy so many times, for so many years, the Tampa Bay Rays will not fade away.

     

    Sox4ever



    I disagree they will fade away just like the billy beane's money ball a's did. The end begins with Price and soon thereafter when Longoria's deal begins to escalate to market value...take either of them away and the Rays are an 85 win team....take both away and they'd struggle to play .500 ball...paying both market value would force the Rays to make some very tough decisions And they be hard pressed to stay below 100M and field a competitive roster. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from patrickford. Show patrickford's posts

    Re:

    The Red Sox should trade for the strike zones given to the Rays by the umpires. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re:

    I disagree they will fade away just like the billy beane's money ball a's did. The end begins with Price and soon thereafter when Longoria's deal begins to escalate to market value...take either of them away and the Rays are an 85 win team....take both away and they'd struggle to play .500 ball...paying both market value would force the Rays to make some very tough decisions And they be hard pressed to stay below 100M and field a competitive roster. 

    I disagree. Even if the Rays end up having to trade Longoria and Price when they can't afford them, others will move in to take their place, and the players they receive for those two will take the place of the next Longorias and Prices and on and on...

    Didn't we hear these same rumblings after they traded Kazmir? Garza? Shields? After they lost Pena? Soriano? Virtually their whole bullpen some winters?

    The limited budget forced the Shields trade, but looking at the deal closely, shows it was a great Rays' trade even if they didn't need to make the deal. Myers is going to be a stud for years and years. They also got a couple other very good prospects that one is likely to help in a year or two and continuing many years beyond.

    Price has 2 arb years left. He makes $10.1M this year. He may be dealt this winter or next summer or winter, but it won't be for nothing. True, guys like Cobb, Moore and Archer may not ever become as good as Price was, but nobody thought Archer and Cobb could make losing Shields nearly seemless.

    Longoria does not make $11M until 2015. His salary goes up by just about $1M a year until it reaches $15M in 2020, then it jumps to $18.5M and $19.5M in '21 & '22 before going down to $13M in 2023. They may be able to afford him until 2020, but if they trade him somewhere between 205 and 2019, they will probably get some top quailty players with many more years of team control in return.

    With a young pitching rotation like the Rays, they will not fade away for at least the near future, but I am guessing much farther beyond as well.

    28 Price  2 arb years

    24 Moore - signed until 2019 at perhaps the best deal in MLB. (He makes only $5M by 2016)

    24 Archer - 5+ years of team control

    25 Cobb - 4 years of team control (3 arbs)

    26 Hellickson - 3 arbs left

    30 Niemann - 1 arb left

     

    Plus... (on 40 man roster or 60-day DL)

    21 Rivero, 22 E Romero, 23 Ordorizzi, 23 M Montgomery, 24 Colome

    25 Torres, de los Santos, 26 McGee, 26 Beliveau

    28 Gomes, 28 Wright, 28 Lueke, 29 Ramos

    (Other prospects not listed)

    Sox4ever

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Let me put it to you this way: in a one game do or die playoff, would you want Lackey or Price as your SP? I am not trying to put Lackey down; he has had an excellent season and has been consistently good. But right now I would take Price hands down.

    And if both teams needed to use Price and Lackey to win the final regular season game to even get to the WC, I'd take Moore over Peavy or Lester as well. Once you get down to Archer, Hellickson, Cobb or Hernandez, then I think we have the edge.

    Sox4ever



    Price>> Lackey. After that, I think Peavy has an edge over Moore. Peavy has more experience.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

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    Moon--after the deal with CC I don't think I would sign another Ex Ray. I was saying I thought Loney, for 2014, but we have Carp, WMB,Nava, Shaw as possibilities if we don't resign Nap.

    There is just something that can't be duplicated by not having Maddon as the manager. Now "Big Game James" has had a pretty good season wih the Royals and has proven the cord can be cut and a pitcher can be successful. He has been a very guttsy performer in his short career; is it possible the Sox could create a package to dangle in front of the Royals?

    It should be a fun post season and an eventful Hot Stove what with Ells, Drew, Nap and Salty all FA.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I disagree they will fade away just like the billy beane's money ball a's did. The end begins with Price and soon thereafter when Longoria's deal begins to escalate to market value...take either of them away and the Rays are an 85 win team....take both away and they'd struggle to play .500 ball...paying both market value would force the Rays to make some very tough decisions And they be hard pressed to stay below 100M and field a competitive roster. 

    I disagree. Even if the Rays end up having to trade Longoria and Price when they can't afford them, others will move in to take their place, and the players they receive for those two will take the place of the next Longorias and Prices and on and on...

    Didn't we hear these same rumblings after they traded Kazmir? Garza? Shields? After they lost Pena? Soriano? Virtually their whole bullpen some winters?

    The limited budget forced the Shields trade, but looking at the deal closely, shows it was a great Rays' trade even if they didn't need to make the deal. Myers is going to be a stud for years and years. They also got a couple other very good prospects that one is likely to help in a year or two and continuing many years beyond.

    Price has 2 arb years left. He makes $10.1M this year. He may be dealt this winter or next summer or winter, but it won't be for nothing. True, guys like Cobb, Moore and Archer may not ever become as good as Price was, but nobody thought Archer and Cobb could make losing Shields nearly seemless.

    Longoria does not make $11M until 2015. His salary goes up by just about $1M a year until it reaches $15M in 2020, then it jumps to $18.5M and $19.5M in '21 & '22 before going down to $13M in 2023. They may be able to afford him until 2020, but if they trade him somewhere between 205 and 2019, they will probably get some top quailty players with many more years of team control in return.

    With a young pitching rotation like the Rays, they will not fade away for at least the near future, but I am guessing much farther beyond as well.

    28 Price  2 arb years

    24 Moore - signed until 2019 at perhaps the best deal in MLB. (He makes only $5M by 2016)

    24 Archer - 5+ years of team control

    25 Cobb - 4 years of team control (3 arbs)

    26 Hellickson - 3 arbs left

    30 Niemann - 1 arb left

     

    Plus... (on 40 man roster or 60-day DL)

    21 Rivero, 22 E Romero, 23 Ordorizzi, 23 M Montgomery, 24 Colome

    25 Torres, de los Santos, 26 McGee, 26 Beliveau

    28 Gomes, 28 Wright, 28 Lueke, 29 Ramos

    (Other prospects not listed)

    Sox4ever



    moon,

    In the end we might be arguing semantics. They will not fade implies that they're going to be a perennial 90 win team and be in the mix every year for the division crown. While I understand that they have a very good farm system and each year they seem to add a veteran or two to bolster the lineup. In the near term if they retain Price who is likely to command in excess of 15m in arbitration and not have to sacrifice depth in order to afford him then I would agree that are set up to be in the mix for the next two years..They also have Zobrist who'll be in the last year of his deal a player that will also command a 15M per type deal on the open market. Niemann is another whos arbitration number might be north of 10M and Rodney thier closer will also be a free agent and likely price himself out of the Rays budget.

    All that being said, if you take away Price even if they do as you suggest and trade him for a stable of young prospects. It's been proven time and again that you never get equal value back in return when trading a top of the rotation starter with CY Young credentials. He alone accounts for about 10 games in the standings. My greater point is that until and unless the Rays ownership can find a way to generate real revenues to allow them to raise the cap on their payroll to a sustainable 80M to 100M or they relocate the team. They will in the very short term have to either bite the bullet or raise their team payroll in order to sustain thier current roster depth. Which is why I am skepitcal that they can and will be able to sustain their current model and be a perrenial force in the division. Price is the axis around which this teams legitimacy as a contender hinges. Not unlike Pedro with the Sox in the late 90...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Let me put it to you this way: in a one game do or die playoff, would you want Lackey or Price as your SP? I am not trying to put Lackey down; he has had an excellent season and has been consistently good. But right now I would take Price hands down.

    And if both teams needed to use Price and Lackey to win the final regular season game to even get to the WC, I'd take Moore over Peavy or Lester as well. Once you get down to Archer, Hellickson, Cobb or Hernandez, then I think we have the edge.

    Sox4ever

     



    Price>> Lackey. After that, I think Peavy has an edge over Moore. Peavy has more experience.

     



    I tend to agree, but if we are playing TB and facing the lefty, Moore: advantage Rays.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re:

    In response to Beantowne's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I disagree they will fade away just like the billy beane's money ball a's did. The end begins with Price and soon thereafter when Longoria's deal begins to escalate to market value...take either of them away and the Rays are an 85 win team....take both away and they'd struggle to play .500 ball...paying both market value would force the Rays to make some very tough decisions And they be hard pressed to stay below 100M and field a competitive roster. 

    I disagree. Even if the Rays end up having to trade Longoria and Price when they can't afford them, others will move in to take their place, and the players they receive for those two will take the place of the next Longorias and Prices and on and on...

    Didn't we hear these same rumblings after they traded Kazmir? Garza? Shields? After they lost Pena? Soriano? Virtually their whole bullpen some winters?

    The limited budget forced the Shields trade, but looking at the deal closely, shows it was a great Rays' trade even if they didn't need to make the deal. Myers is going to be a stud for years and years. They also got a couple other very good prospects that one is likely to help in a year or two and continuing many years beyond.

    Price has 2 arb years left. He makes $10.1M this year. He may be dealt this winter or next summer or winter, but it won't be for nothing. True, guys like Cobb, Moore and Archer may not ever become as good as Price was, but nobody thought Archer and Cobb could make losing Shields nearly seemless.

    Longoria does not make $11M until 2015. His salary goes up by just about $1M a year until it reaches $15M in 2020, then it jumps to $18.5M and $19.5M in '21 & '22 before going down to $13M in 2023. They may be able to afford him until 2020, but if they trade him somewhere between 205 and 2019, they will probably get some top quailty players with many more years of team control in return.

    With a young pitching rotation like the Rays, they will not fade away for at least the near future, but I am guessing much farther beyond as well.

    28 Price  2 arb years

    24 Moore - signed until 2019 at perhaps the best deal in MLB. (He makes only $5M by 2016)

    24 Archer - 5+ years of team control

    25 Cobb - 4 years of team control (3 arbs)

    26 Hellickson - 3 arbs left

    30 Niemann - 1 arb left

     

    Plus... (on 40 man roster or 60-day DL)

    21 Rivero, 22 E Romero, 23 Ordorizzi, 23 M Montgomery, 24 Colome

    25 Torres, de los Santos, 26 McGee, 26 Beliveau

    28 Gomes, 28 Wright, 28 Lueke, 29 Ramos

    (Other prospects not listed)

    Sox4ever

     



    moon,

     

    In the end we might be arguing semantics. They will not fade implies that they're going to be a perennial 90 win team and be in the mix every year for the division crown. While I understand that they have a very good farm system and each year they seem to add a veteran or two to bolster the lineup. In the near term if they retain Price who is likely to command in excess of 15m in arbitration and not have to sacrifice depth in order to afford him then I would agree that are set up to be in the mix for the next two years..They also have Zobrist who'll be in the last year of his deal a player that will also command a 15M per type deal on the open market. Niemann is another whos arbitration number might be north of 10M and Rodney thier closer will also be a free agent and likely price himself out of the Rays budget.

    All that being said, if you take away Price even if they do as you suggest and trade him for a stable of young prospects. It's been proven time and again that you never get equal value back in return when trading a top of the rotation starter with CY Young credentials. He alone accounts for about 10 games in the standings. My greater point is that until and unless the Rays ownership can find a way to generate real revenues to allow them to raise the cap on their payroll to a sustainable 80M to 100M or they relocate the team. They will in the very short term have to either bite the bullet or raise their team payroll in order to sustain thier current roster depth. Which is why I am skepitcal that they can and will be able to sustain their current model and be a perrenial force in the division. Price is the axis around which this teams legitimacy as a contender hinges. Not unlike Pedro with the Sox in the late 90...




    I like what they got for Shields.

    I'm not sure price gets $15M next year. If so, he will be dealt before the season starts.

    Zobrist will be missed, but the Rays seem to keep finding capable replacements. They've dealt with long injuries to Longoria and SP'ers.

    I think they will be near 90 wins for many years to come.

     
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