Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Boy, that no-hitters caught is a list of who's who amoung catchers. More nobody names in there. List the pitchers who threw them, as they get 100% of the credit.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Just as a side note the 4 no hitters did come against teams that were woeful hitting teams at the time.

    Lowe - 2002 Tampa Bay Devil Rays

    Buchholz - 2007 Baltimore Orioles

    Lester - 2008 KC Royals

    Nomo - 2001 Baltimore Orioles

    It is a great accomplishment just the same to have caught for different pitchers from 2001 - 2008 in no hit games. It was. The first was 10 years ago, the last 3 seasons ago. Tek was 29 when he caught the first, 36 when caught the last.

    No matter how good he is at working in partnership with pitchers, he isn't at 39 years old going to be able to catch the majority of the RS games this year.

    And it is hard to say he is underrated. His ability to handle to pitchers has been well celebrated in the media and by many fans. He earned millions based on it. In fact people have tended to gloss over or accept his warts because of that acknowledge fact, whether it has been his poor throwing technique or in later years his declining offense. Some fans in reaction to "canonization" of Tek do tend to argue back in a way that mitigates his game calling and prep and focus on his troubles with baserunners and his declining offense. So goes fan debates.

    But steal one from Patino with a twist, "When Jason Varitek walks through that door he is old and gray." That's OK for the back-up but whatever happens with number 1, it won't cut it there long. And honestly, after such a nice career tek deserves better than the embarrassment that would be his performance in 30-45 days of catching 4-5 games in a row every week.

    Just my take
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    throwing a no hitter is a great thing but obviously you need a large measure of luck and/or a lousy team (thanks 5katz for that reminder) but Clemens never threw one, pedro never threw one, and so on an on....attributing these to the catcher is laughable
     
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    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Harness is very laughable.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Yes, I am laughing - at all the no-hitter retorts. My comment was tongue and cheek to Softy's usage of comparing 5 innings of Buch one week to 5.6 IP the next week.
    That's the measuring stick of one who has a short ruler.

    When fans judge a player after his career is finished, the numbers tend to replace the intangibles over time. I don't think Tek is underrated. I do think the tangibles he and others bring as part of their skill-set can easily be over-looked.

    To me, a great player does great things for his team. I don't measure value individually. That's why I have appreciated Wake all these years.
    The real issue here is how we measure a player's true value.

    Pedroia may or may not have HOF numbers once he hangs it up, buy his value to team will always outshine his individual accomplishments.

    I said this before and I'll repeat it: I think it's sad that so many here were wanting to put Tek out of his misery a few years back.
    I backed him up then as I do now because it's hard to measure his contributions by numbers alone.

    791 is right when he alludes to the number of threads regarding Salty/Tek.
    I think posters are now more aware of a catcher's affect on his pitchers than they once were - maybe too aware. Now, game by game, it's how Salty did with Lackey or how Tek did with Dice. This criteria isn't measured in this manor. Not at all.

    Softlaw's baiting makes it all the worse, as he will go to any extreme to be a jerk.

    BTW: Elrod Hendricks was a hell of a good handler of pitchers. In fact, the O's employed him as a catching coach for 28 years after he retired. Last year, I did research on his impact on the O's starters, compared to Etchebarrens'. He couldn't hit for much, but they missed him when they traded him after '71. That's why they got him back in '73.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    How about softy using a single strike out by OKi to defend his numbers?

    I nearly fell off my beach chair.
     
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    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    I thought, like many here, that Softy was baiting for the sake of drawing attention to himself. But now I honestly believe there are dead-ends to his baseball IQ. He shapes his posts eloquently so as to give the perception of knowledge.

    He forgets his "social graces" and blasts away when his supposed baseball knowledge is threatened.

    His player bias feeds his EGO but blocks his vision.

    His one-game samplers reflect the inability to measure criteria properly, even if it is for baiting purposes.

    He parades his Wake hate like a badge of honor. And once the ties with Wake are cut, we will never, ever hear the end of how he was right about Wakefield all along.

    I caution you if you are sitting in a beach chair when reading his posts.
    I now require a rocker-recliner - as it's sturdier!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    I thought that Drew has been playing more games per year than many of the Drew bashers in here give him credit for. I saw the stats recently in here. Does anyone remember them?

    For all of the crap J.D. Drew gets about being injured, people don't realize that Kevin Youkilis has played only six more games than Drew (546 to 540) since Drew signed with the Red Sox in 2007. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Tek has been involved with at least 3 near no hitters, with Pedro, Wake and Schilling, if I am not mistaken. Also, this was the roid era. Keep that in mind. Maybe not Wake, actually since Mirabelli was his personal catcher, but he may have been in 1998 or sometime before 2003 when Mirabelli got here.

    If you're going to give credit to Varitek, are you also going to give credit to the defense playing behind those pitchers?  They had just as much to do with those actual (or near) no hitters.

    Catching a no hitter from Koufax isn't that impressive considering how great Koufax was. Poor counter-comparison.

    First of all, that's a stupid comment.  Pedro in his prime was better than Koufax in his prime, yet Pedro never threw any no hitters.  Koufax's greatness doesn't devalue his four no hitters.  That said, Koufax also pitched in the single worst run environment since the dead ball era--that devalues his no hitters a little bit.  It's still impressive, but it becomes less impressive when you consider how little offense occurred in the 1960s.

    Comparing that to Pedro and Tek, Pedro came close many times, but never did it.

    Yes, and Pedro's dominance is more due to him being an amazing pitcher--not really Varitek. 

    The fact Teks calls great games and has been involved in so many top rated AL pitching staffs through the years, along with holding the record for no hitters caught (All Time), that's not a concidence.

    Your assertion about Varitek calling "great games" is an opinion, not a fact.  Until you can appropriately compare his skills with other catchers across leagues and era, you're guessing.  It's possible his game calling skills actually compare very poorly.  Also, I seem to remember an awful lot of poor pitching Red Sox pitching staffs over the years.  The 2003, 2005, and 2006 staffs all gave up 800+ runs (almost 5 runs per game).  If you're going to credit Varitek for the great staffs, you have to credit him with the poor ones as well.  It's a two way street.

    My only point. Outside of him being 40 and maybe not holding up all year physically, he should be starting until Salty can prove he's adequate.

    I'm not saying I disagree...or agree for that matter...but what compelling evidence are you basing this off of.

    At least split it.    See who can work with Salty and who prefers Tek.

    Just because a pitcher feels comfortable with a particular catcher, it doesn't mean he'll pitch well.  There are several factors outside of a pitcher-catcher interaction that influence a pitcher's perceived performance. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Another slightly stupid post. 

    That's a bit unnecessary, don't you think?

    Varitek didn't have HOF pitchers here in Derek Lowe, Clay Buchholz, Lester, Nomo, etc.

    While Lowe and Nomo aren't HoF pitchers, the jury is still very much out on Buchholz and Lester.  In fact, I think Lester has a fairly decent chance depending on how his career plays out.

    Do the math.  It's not like these names above are Clemens, Pedro or Schilling, Hall of Famers.  The key differentiator is the fact the names he did catch that threw no hitters, are not Hall of Famers.

    Right, and Varitek caught for two out of the three pitchers you named, and none of them threw no-hitters.  Based on your logic, it's Varitek's fault.

    You'd expect the Pedros and Schillings to have one with Tek. Each ALMOST did, 26 outs in, multiple times.

    But they didn't.  Defense, luck, park factors, weather, and the opposing offense are all factors that can play a role in no hitters.  It's not just the pitcher and/or the catcher.  There are nine players on each team that play a role--not two.

    This in itself makes Tek an equal to the cathers who caught multiple no hitters thrown by HOF pitchers.

    I'm not even sure what this means.

    Elrod Hendricks bumbling behind the plate, lucky enough to be catching a Jim Palmer no hitter is irrelevant just as it was for Rich Gedman or Bill Haselman catching Clemens's 20K games. That was Clemens, not the catchers.

    Are you being ironic?  Seriously!  You're making stuff up as you go along!  Your argument is so inconsistent, it's laughable. 

    Varitek has been highly consistent in this area for 15 years here.   That's a long time to be doing something so well that is clearly undervalued in this league, especially during the steroid era.

    Um...this isn't the steroid era...it's the post-steroid era.  Also, being an MLB catcher for 15 years is nice, but it doesn't make you a good catcher.  In fact, his skills have probably eroded somewhat due to his age. 

    Coma is bordering on Goober Grady data/stats review failure if he continues to ignore this.

    People who live in glass houses...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    You make some good points 791, but I don't think pitch-calling, framing pitches, setting a target, and handling the emotions of a pitcher erodes, in fact, it may improve with more and more experience. Maybe these aspects, maybe, have more to do with pitcher performance than we know.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    In Response to Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value:
    [QUOTE]You make some good points 791, but I don't think pitch-calling, framing pitches, setting a target, and handling the emotions of a pitcher erodes, in fact, it may improve with more and more experience. Maybe these aspects, maybe, have more to do with pitcher performance than we know.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Certain don't necessarily erode, but they can.  It's possible that by playing less, a catcher can be less intune with either the pitcher or the opposing batter.  Also, it's possible that a catcher's level of preparation erodes over time as well.  I'm not saying that's the case with Varitek but in general.  Also, the ability to handle a pitcher's emotions (and the effect that ability has on a pitcher) is highly subjective.  Furthermore, there are other skills that a catcher employs (like blocking balls in the dirt, and controlling the baserunning game) that do erode over time.  So, in essence, the over skillset probably does erode to an extent.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Everyone can justify how point to the positive of how great Varitek is with the pitching staff, but how many runs has Varitek cost the team by his anemic hitting?  1 for 23. Last night with 2nd and 3rd and no outs, he can't get the runner in. The same thing happend twice during the Gio Gonzalez game.

    If Varitek occasionally can get a runner in, that is an extra run. So even if the pitcher has an ERA of 1 more than with Tek, it's a wash. I have to believe a Benji Molina would produce more than Tek as would Doumit, etc.

    And how good is Tek at throwing runners out.

    The guys is completely lost as a hitter.  You'd be better DH'ing for him and letting the pitcher hit, at least last night with Beckett.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan791. Show redsoxfan791's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Bengie Molina?

    I'd rather gargle Clorox.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    Certain don't necessarily erode, but they can.  It's possible that by playing less, a catcher can be less intune with either the pitcher or the opposing batter.  Also, it's possible that a catcher's level of preparation erodes over time as well. 
    Possible, but I feel less likely. The mind does not erode in your early 40's.
    My guess is that VTek spends more time prepping than when he was younger.

    I'm not saying that's the case with Varitek but in general.  Also, the ability to handle a pitcher's emotions (and the effect that ability has on a pitcher) is highly subjective. 

    I agree 100%, but sometimes I feel that if you think someting is subjective, it and can't be proven and given reasons, it means it is not true. It could be something very ridiculous that causes a pitcher to feel more comfortable with VTek or less with another catcher of to listen or not listen to what a catcher says in mound talks. We may never find out, but that doesn't mean it never mattered. 

    Furthermore, there are other skills that a catcher employs (like blocking balls in the dirt, and controlling the baserunning game) that do erode over time.  So, in essence, the over skillset probably does erode to an extent.

    I agree that that part of VTek's game, alnong with hishitting vs RHPs has eroded significantly with age.

    A while ago I crudely attempted to measure how much extra hitting would have to done by a catcher whose picthers let up a half run more per game when he caught (assuming he was at fault for that much anyways, the actual difference could be more or less). I found that even if catcher A hits .400 vs catcher B who hits .200, the hitting would usually not outweigh the loss of 0.50 in ERA.

    Please, do not think that I am using this season's small sample size to show that we can win even with VTek hitting .050 or less. I am not doing that. I do not, however, feel a catcher's hitting is as valuable as his mind and actions behind the plate. What goes into a win is full of so many variables, it is hard to pinpoint just one factor's role in winning. Any factor. I know this. I do think that over very long sample sizes, it becomes clear that teams win more or less when a certain player plays or does not play. It's easy to see why the Sox won more when Ted Williams played than when he did not, but not so easy to believe VTek makes a difference. I get that.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    The over-riding factor in baseball is pitching. Period. Ted Williams did a lot of damage offensively. But it wouldn't have translated into so many wins unless those clubs had good pitching.

    The catcher has the greatest affect on pitching; more so than any other position.
    Varitek's importance to his teams will long be debated. I'm glad Tek has played this long. Now we get a chance to see how he fares against other FT catchers catching the same staff.

    Moon and I said too many times last year that a catcher's bat doesn't come close to his impacting his pitchers. Cash  hit .133 with one lousy rbi but the team had a better winning pct. with him (as starting catcher) catching the same pitchers as did VMART.

    Tek is a lifetime .257 hitter but the team plays almost 100 points better with him catching than w/o him.

    The team is in last place this year, Tek is hitting .043, yet they have played .700 baseball with him catching. Yeah, it's a short sample, but other samples were  shown over many years and thousands of innings - and the lighter-hitting catcher who got more out of his pitchers allowed his team win at a much better rate than a superior hitting catcher who compromised his pitchers.

    It all comes down to pitching. And I've often been told that the cerebral part of catching is the last skill to perfect...and the last to go.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    If Varitek occasionally can get a runner in, that is an extra run. So even if the pitcher has an ERA of 1 more than with Tek, it's a wash...

    A .300 hitting catcher vs Vtek at .040  would still not make up for 0.50 in lower ERA (CERA), let alone 1.00 in ERA.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    RidingWiththeKing = Harness

    Salty was about as clumsy as Varitek, but he did double and had great stuff against a pesky Angel lineup. I really like the way Salty curves his fingers and slid them over and waited to move his glove until Lester started the windup.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    I'd rather be riding with the king than walking with the clowns.

    "Your room is ready sir: Would you prefer the padded cell, or the straight jacket?"
     
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    Re: Tek's Incredible and Underrated Value

    I'd prefer that you receive a lobotomy, as depicted in "One Flew over the CERA NEST".
     

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