The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Strangeglove. Show Strangeglove's posts

    The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    Ok you know the names, but here, I believe are the first 12, as it now stands:

    Start: Lest, Buch, Dump, Lack, Dub

    Relief: Han,Bail,Taz,Uh, Breslow,Miller,Morales

    That's 12.

    But what about Bard,Acceves,Carpenter,Mortenson? That makes16 Major League Quality Pitchers.

    Anyone I am forgetting? There's even talk of signing on another starter such as Vasquez.

    Anyone else I'm forgetting? If all are healthy and pitch decently in Spring Training, whatdawe going to do??? 

    Help!!!!  -   I'm losing sleep over this dilema, I tell ya!

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to Strangeglove's comment:

    Ok you know the names, but here, I believe are the first 12, as it now stands:

    Start: Lest, Buch, Dump, Lack, Dub

    Relief: Han,Bail,Taz,Uh, Breslow,Miller,Morales

    That's 12.

    But what about Bard,Acceves,Carpenter,Mortenson? That makes16 Major League Quality Pitchers.

    Anyone I am forgetting? There's even talk of signing on another starter such as Vasquez.

    Anyone else I'm forgetting? If all are healthy and pitch decently in Spring Training, whatdawe going to do??? 

    Help!!!!  -   I'm losing sleep over this dilema, I tell ya!

     



    It's an old cliche, but "These things tend to work themselves out" often rings true.  It's still possible that they will move a reliever (Bailey?), but pitching depth is never a bad thing.

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    Theyve started with 13 before and took it from there. I see a trade coming soon for the Sox with a reliever. They have 3 LHP right now in the pen...

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    Typically you go with either 11 or 12 pitchers. They probably won't have 3 lefties.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    If Sox can get a platoon player who can handle 1B/OF position, Sox could carry 13 pitchers.  But even if the Sox do acquire such player, our BP is strong enough as is right now and there's no need to add one more sacrificing a position player.  I would say Sox will have 13 position players including DH spot and 12 pitchers as there are more injury concerns with the position players.  

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    I do not think there are 16 major league quality pitchers on any team's roster.

    With the DH , you don't need pinch hitters anymore, so your bench is usually a back up catcher, 4th outfielder (who sometimes can backup 1st base) and a backup middle infielder. That's 12  position players , which allows AL teams to carry 13 pitchers.

    My feeling is that's one too many. Today's mentality towards pitchers is complete lunacy. They baby them way too much. This is why so many pitchers need Tommy John surgery. They don't throw enough innings, sit too long between appearances and then when they do pitch they all try to be Nolan Ryan and throw 100 MPH.... the result? You need to stock your AAA team with extra pitchers because you just know that at least two or three of your staff will end up with "arm soreness" by June or July.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Strangeglove. Show Strangeglove's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    Zill (may I call you that for short?),

    The thing about sitting too long and then throwing too hard - I'm not sure I quite agree. It always seemed crazy to me to have a Pitcher warm up by throwing 50 or 60 times in the bullpen. Then, he comes in and throws (sometimes) 1 or 2 Pitches and he's done. Done??

    I don't get it.  Then the next guy comes in and does the same in one inning or less. Before you know it, you've used up 6 guys and your bullpen is shot (or tired) for the next day.  To me,other than your closer perhaps, your intent should be to have a relief Pitcher toss 2 or even 3 innings.  This way you always have fresh arms available.

    I get the match up thing,but, I don't think thats really much of an issue up until say the 7th inning usually.

    So I ask any of you Relief Pitchers out there this question. Everyday for one inning (or less) or every other day for 2 innings. - Which would you prefer?

     

     

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:

    I do not think there are 16 major league quality pitchers on any team's roster.

    With the DH , you don't need pinch hitters anymore, so your bench is usually a back up catcher, 4th outfielder (who sometimes can backup 1st base) and a backup middle infielder. That's 12  position players , which allows AL teams to carry 13 pitchers.

    My feeling is that's one too many. Today's mentality towards pitchers is complete lunacy. They baby them way too much. This is why so many pitchers need Tommy John surgery. They don't throw enough innings, sit too long between appearances and then when they do pitch they all try to be Nolan Ryan and throw 100 MPH.... the result? You need to stock your AAA team with extra pitchers because you just know that at least two or three of your staff will end up with "arm soreness" by June or July.




    I agree Zill. A 4 man rotation was and is the best scenario, with 7 in the Pen....2 long guys, 4 middle and one closer.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Strangeglove. Show Strangeglove's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    Soft,

    I liked your response. Good points.

    To me, Tazawa looks like the real deal and has to stay up.

    Acceves, looked lost by the end of the season. Maybe, he has to go.

    Carpenter, could be very underated. He throws 95. If healthy, he could surprise. Obviously,at this point, a long shot.

    Bard, its not far fetched that he regains his 99mph fastball. If so, someone has to go instead.

    Morales, looked like Sandy Koufax at times last year as a starter. If Dubront continues being inconsistent,maybe, he's sent down???

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

    They can start Bard in AAA, if need be. Aceves is the most reliable pitcher they have. Carpenter is dumpster trash. They need to retain all the pitching depth they can, so if attrition from spring training doesn't thin the herd, they should start the season with Tazawa in AAA.

    They should not trade Miller or Breslow or Morales, at this point in time. Miller was one of their best pen weapons in 2012. He's still young and settled in well, with explosive stuff. Anyone who says "they aren't keeping 3 lefties" is as incompetent as Red Sox management. Morales is excellent long relief and spot starter depth. Breslow has been solid almost every season of his major league career.

    The Red Sox management has correctly improved the depth of what was a good pen in 2012. They should use remaining options and AAA to retain that depth, and approach 2013 with a deep overall pitching staff to make up for the lack of elite starters at the top. Elite starters rarely reach trade or FA market unless they are damaged goods or old and high miles, and it's a huge mistake to sign 2nd and 3rd rate starting pitchers and pay them like they are elite starting pitchers.

    Dumpster was a mistake, but the depth of the pen and what's in place makes the Red Sox overall pitching staff quite adequate if they put top defense behind them and a top v LP and v RP combination in the middle of the offense.



    For the most part I agree. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

    They can start Bard in AAA, if need be. Aceves is the most reliable pitcher they have. Carpenter is dumpster trash. They need to retain all the pitching depth they can, so if attrition from spring training doesn't thin the herd, they should start the season with Tazawa in AAA.

    They should not trade Miller or Breslow or Morales, at this point in time. Miller was one of their best pen weapons in 2012. He's still young and settled in well, with explosive stuff. Anyone who says "they aren't keeping 3 lefties" is as incompetent as Red Sox management. Morales is excellent long relief and spot starter depth. Breslow has been solid almost every season of his major league career.

    The Red Sox management has correctly improved the depth of what was a good pen in 2012. They should use remaining options and AAA to retain that depth, and approach 2013 with a deep overall pitching staff to make up for the lack of elite starters at the top. Elite starters rarely reach trade or FA market unless they are damaged goods or old and high miles, and it's a huge mistake to sign 2nd and 3rd rate starting pitchers and pay them like they are elite starting pitchers.

    Dumpster was a mistake, but the depth of the pen and what's in place makes the Red Sox overall pitching staff quite adequate if they put top defense behind them and a top v LP and v RP combination in the middle of the offense.




    Surprisingly, I agree with this.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to Strangeglove's comment:

    Zill (may I call you that for short?),

    The thing about sitting too long and then throwing too hard - I'm not sure I quite agree. It always seemed crazy to me to have a Pitcher warm up by throwing 50 or 60 times in the bullpen. Then, he comes in and throws (sometimes) 1 or 2 Pitches and he's done. Done??

    I don't get it.  Then the next guy comes in and does the same in one inning or less. Before you know it, you've used up 6 guys and your bullpen is shot (or tired) for the next day.  To me,other than your closer perhaps, your intent should be to have a relief Pitcher toss 2 or even 3 innings.  This way you always have fresh arms available.

    I get the match up thing,but, I don't think thats really much of an issue up until say the 7th inning usually.

    So I ask any of you Relief Pitchers out there this question. Everyday for one inning (or less) or every other day for 2 innings. - Which would you prefer?

     

     

     




    So, while you don't agree in principal, you do agree that management doesn't know what the hell they are doing....most of the time , in regards to pitching.

    It is stupidity to have a guy warm up by throwing 30-40 pitches, then come in and throw 10 pitches or less in the game.

    Most of what is done as far as pitchers are concerned is counterproductive.

    This is what stinks about pitching today:

    You have specialists. A lefty specialist , who comes in to get that one "tough lefty batter"...of course many teams have more than one tough lefty batter....blows that theory to hell.

    You have a closer.

    A set up man.

    A long reliever.

    5 starters.

    Then you have a "mop up man."

    How about just getting 10 good pitchers? , guys who can get outs.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    I like the fact that they have a LH and RHP in the pen that both have good splits against RH and LHH. Breslow and Uehara.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    They can start Bard in AAA, if need be. Aceves is the most reliable pitcher they have. Carpenter is dumpster trash. They need to retain all the pitching depth they can, so if attrition from spring training doesn't thin the herd, they should start the season with Tazawa in AAA.

    i have to dispute your placement of Tazawa.. He has filthy stuff and is definitely MLB ready, but given the crowdedness of the sox BP we have to cut it down somehow. I'd rather stock pitchers in AAA who have options than Trade someone away. The good news is that in AAA we can make him a starter like he should be..

    They should not trade Miller or Breslow or Morales, at this point in time. Miller was one of their best pen weapons in 2012. He's still young and settled in well, with explosive stuff. Morales is excellent long relief and spot starter depth. Breslow has been solid almost every season of his major league career.

    I agree with this, i see no problem with having 3 lefties.

    The Red Sox management has correctly improved the depth of what was a good pen in 2012. They should use remaining options and AAA to retain that depth, and approach 2013 with a deep overall pitching staff to make up for the lack of elite starters at the top. Elite starters rarely reach trade or FA market unless they are damaged goods or old and high miles, and it's a huge mistake to sign 2nd and 3rd rate starting pitchers and pay them like they are elite starting pitchers.

    idk what your talking about here, elite starting pitchers are making big money. I don't see anyone on our staff besides lackey who is being paid even close to a #1 SP's salary..

    Highest paid starting pitchers:


    1. Zack Greinke, $24,500,000 (2013-18)
    2. CC Sabathia, $24,400,000 (2012-16)
    3. Cole Hamels, $24,000,000 (2013-18)
    . . . Cliff Lee, $24,000,000 (2011-15)
    5. CC Sabathia, $23,000,000
    (2009-15)
    6. Johan Santana, $22,916,667 (2008-13)
    7. Matt Cain, $21,250,000 (2012-17)
    8. Tim Lincecum, $20,250,000 (2012-13)
    9. Roy Halladay, $20,000,000
    (2011-13)
    10. Carlos Zambrano, $18,300,000 (2008-12)

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    They can start Bard in AAA, if need be. Aceves is the most reliable pitcher they have. Carpenter is dumpster trash. They need to retain all the pitching depth they can, so if attrition from spring training doesn't thin the herd, they should start the season with Tazawa in AAA.

    i have to dispute your placement of Tazawa.. He has filthy stuff and is definitely MLB ready, but given the crowdedness of the sox BP we have to cut it down somehow. I'd rather stock pitchers in AAA who have options than Trade someone away. The good news is that in AAA we can make him a starter like he should be..

    They should not trade Miller or Breslow or Morales, at this point in time. Miller was one of their best pen weapons in 2012. He's still young and settled in well, with explosive stuff. Morales is excellent long relief and spot starter depth. Breslow has been solid almost every season of his major league career.

    I agree with this, i see no problem with having 3 lefties.

    The Red Sox management has correctly improved the depth of what was a good pen in 2012. They should use remaining options and AAA to retain that depth, and approach 2013 with a deep overall pitching staff to make up for the lack of elite starters at the top. Elite starters rarely reach trade or FA market unless they are damaged goods or old and high miles, and it's a huge mistake to sign 2nd and 3rd rate starting pitchers and pay them like they are elite starting pitchers.

    idk what your talking about here, elite starting pitchers are making big money. I don't see anyone on our staff besides lackey who is being paid even close to a #1s salary..

    Highest paid starting pitchers:


    1. Zack Greinke, $24,500,000 (2013-18)
    2. CC Sabathia, $24,400,000 (2012-16)
    3. Cole Hamels, $24,000,000 (2013-18)
    . . . Cliff Lee, $24,000,000 (2011-15)
    5. CC Sabathia, $23,000,000
    (2009-15)
    6. Johan Santana, $22,916,667 (2008-13)
    7. Matt Cain, $21,250,000 (2012-17)
    8. Tim Lincecum, $20,250,000 (2012-13)
    9. Roy Halladay, $20,000,000
    (2011-13)
    10. Carlos Zambrano, $18,300,000 (2008-12)




    I still think were going to see a reliever go in a trade somewhere...I agree that Tazawa should start the year in Boston. He proved last year that hes too valuable to waste away in AAA.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    Tazawa does have one option year remaining.  Bard had two. This will sort itself out with injuries. 

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

    Elite starting pitchers aren't  "#1".  Lackey and Dumpster are on the books for about 30 million a year. That's incompetence.



    I meant Aces. My mistake, i edited my post.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    I feel that Aceves will be gone as will one of the lefties probably Morales. Bard is up to start the season Mortenson and Carpenter are on the shuttle.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to carnie's comment:

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

     

    They can start Bard in AAA, if need be. Aceves is the most reliable pitcher they have. Carpenter is dumpster trash. They need to retain all the pitching depth they can, so if attrition from spring training doesn't thin the herd, they should start the season with Tazawa in AAA.

    They should not trade Miller or Breslow or Morales, at this point in time. Miller was one of their best pen weapons in 2012. He's still young and settled in well, with explosive stuff. Anyone who says "they aren't keeping 3 lefties" is as incompetent as Red Sox management. Morales is excellent long relief and spot starter depth. Breslow has been solid almost every season of his major league career.

    The Red Sox management has correctly improved the depth of what was a good pen in 2012. They should use remaining options and AAA to retain that depth, and approach 2013 with a deep overall pitching staff to make up for the lack of elite starters at the top. Elite starters rarely reach trade or FA market unless they are damaged goods or old and high miles, and it's a huge mistake to sign 2nd and 3rd rate starting pitchers and pay them like they are elite starting pitchers.

    Dumpster was a mistake, but the depth of the pen and what's in place makes the Red Sox overall pitching staff quite adequate if they put top defense behind them and a top v LP and v RP combination in the middle of the offense.

     




    Surprisingly, I agree with this.

     



    Not too surprisingly, he can't seem to make his point without the use of terms that are condesending and imature...Which takes away from the overall point of his posts, which if one filters out his softspeak...Generally has some merit and very good discusion points...

    Here's the deal, the Red Sox are dealing from a position of strength. We have tradeable assets and the roster flexibility to keep the best 14 of the 16 based on the status of ML options...

    The final roster makeup will depend on many variables between now and April 1st. They don't have to trade any of them before camp opens, but certainly if the right player presents himself and is seen as an ideal fit for the roster they could then use one or more of the "surplus" to address that need.

    Lester, Buccholz, Doubront, Dempster & Lackey are sure bets...

    Hanrahan, Uerehara, Bailey, Morales, Aceves, Miller & Breslow are also locks...

    That's a total of 12 to open the season, it stands to reason that Tazawa & Bard who both still have options will head to Pawtucket. My guess is they might have Tazawa pitch out of the rotation and keep himself stretched out to provide "organiztional" depth. With Bard having to pitch himself back on to the ML roster this spring.

    If they chose to carry 13

    That leaves Mortensen & Carpenter as the only ones of the group that could well be carried as the 13th, "while things work themselves out" or more likely they'll be traded before or during camp for a player to be named or as I stated above (lefthanded B/U 1B?)...If at anytime, one of the above goes down, then the depth chart is such that the next man in line steps in and based on math and the expected notm of attrition due to injury and early season arm troubles...If two or three of them have to be shut down for a couple weeks the depth that was is now thinner...

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    In response to Beantowne's comment:

    In response to carnie's comment:

     

    In response to Softlaw1's comment:

     

    They can start Bard in AAA, if need be. Aceves is the most reliable pitcher they have. Carpenter is dumpster trash. They need to retain all the pitching depth they can, so if attrition from spring training doesn't thin the herd, they should start the season with Tazawa in AAA.

    They should not trade Miller or Breslow or Morales, at this point in time. Miller was one of their best pen weapons in 2012. He's still young and settled in well, with explosive stuff. Anyone who says "they aren't keeping 3 lefties" is as incompetent as Red Sox management. Morales is excellent long relief and spot starter depth. Breslow has been solid almost every season of his major league career.

    The Red Sox management has correctly improved the depth of what was a good pen in 2012. They should use remaining options and AAA to retain that depth, and approach 2013 with a deep overall pitching staff to make up for the lack of elite starters at the top. Elite starters rarely reach trade or FA market unless they are damaged goods or old and high miles, and it's a huge mistake to sign 2nd and 3rd rate starting pitchers and pay them like they are elite starting pitchers.

    Dumpster was a mistake, but the depth of the pen and what's in place makes the Red Sox overall pitching staff quite adequate if they put top defense behind them and a top v LP and v RP combination in the middle of the offense.

     




    Surprisingly, I agree with this.

     

     



    Not too surprisingly, he can't seem to make his point without the use of terms that are condesending and imature...Which takes away from the overall point of his posts, which if one filters out his softspeak...Generally has some merit and very good discusion points...

     

    Here's the deal, the Red Sox are dealing from a position of strength. We have tradeable assets and the roster flexibility to keep the best 14 of the 16 based on the status of ML options...

    The final roster makeup will depend on many variables between now and April 1st. They don't have to trade any of them before camp opens, but certainly if the right player presents himself and is seen as an ideal fit for the roster they could then use one or more of the "surplus" to address that need.

    Lester, Buccholz, Doubront, Dempster & Lackey are sure bets...

    Hanrahan, Uerehara, Bailey, Morales, Aceves, Miller & Breslow are also locks...

    That's a total of 12 to open the season, it stands to reason that Tazawa & Bard who both still have options will head to Pawtucket. My guess is they might have Tazawa pitch out of the rotation and keep himself stretched out to provide "organiztional" depth. With Bard having to pitch himself back on to the ML roster this spring.

    If they chose to carry 13

    That leaves Mortensen & Carpenter as the only ones of the group that could well be carried as the 13th, "while things work themselves out" or more likely they'll be traded before or during camp for a player to be named or as I stated above (lefthanded B/U 1B?)...If at anytime, one of the above goes down, then the depth chart is such that the next man in line steps in and based on math and the expected notm of attrition due to injury and early season arm troubles...If two or three of them have to be shut down for a couple weeks the depth that was is now thinner...

     




    That's a very well reasoned take on it. I have a couple of quibbles with it though. I'm not so sure that Junichi winds up in the Pawtucket rotation, although I do think that would be the best thing for his development. As it stands right now the Pawtucket rotation has DeLaRosa, Webster, Wright, Chris Hernandez and likely Drake Britton. So it looks pretty full with prospects. Possibly if Tazawa winds up in Pawtucket it will be as a long man/ spot starter. Also I think 3 lefties in the pen is a bit much. We could see a trade of at least one lefty reliever and possibly a RH reliever and catcher for some AA or A power arms.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    Bard will definately start year in AAA. But still not too late for a trade, Detroit still needs a closer or bullpen help and have Porcello to offer. Could still happen. But as we have learned the last few years you never ever have too much pitching! Lets see how everyone looks in ST and some team will deal w/ an injury and will be looking for some help, and RS will be dealing from a strength.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    12

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Strangeglove. Show Strangeglove's posts

    Re: The Age Old Question: 12 or 13 Pitchers??

    Good Morning Red Sox Nation!

    Read some great responses to my post. A couple of additional thoughts on my part...

    Acceves. I'm not quite as hooked on him as some of you.

    Bard. If he goes back to throwing like the old Bard, he has to stay.

    Tazawa. Looks like a lock to me. Stuff looked awesome last year.

     
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