The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : Buritto, you may have liked the guy, but I think he was an overpaid, underperforming, glorified singles hitter....   A clean-up hitting 1st base power hitter?  no-way!
    Posted by ampoule



    Doubles hitter not singles amp. This team needs someone just like him and then another bat of the 35 homer 100 ribbies .250 type. That is the peanut butter/chocolate combo.  The thing is that Ortiz is not that player anymore.... anyone suggesting he is then please show me the last time he hit 35/100.

    Also AGon is the quintessential #3 hitter, with the missing 35/100 hitter for ther 4 hole.

    Oh well.... as I said I am happy to unload Beckett and Crawford.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    Without question: Approve. The SOX hopefully will get rid of 3 large overpaid contracts. And they are getting rid of a huge headache in Beckett. Crawford was a bust. And Agon never seemed like he wanted to be in Boston. The SOX just might get a very early Xmas gift here from LA. PLUS, this keeps the fanbase interested in what otherwise is another pathetic season.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    If we don't pay a cent of any of the deals, I'd be for this trade for nothing in return. Any decent prospects are icing on the cake.

    I like AGon, but at $22M, it's not a horrible loss, if we spend the savings wisely going forward.

    I think Beckett will have a good year next year, but at his contract, trading him for nothing is worth it, if we don't pay a cent.

    Trading CC and paying nothing cancels out any negative the AGon part of the deal might be, and then some (and I'm not sure trading AGon for a decent prospect alone is a bad deal).

    Punto is icing on the cake, but just  $1.5M savings.

    I voted "Approved", but with reservations concerning how much we pay of the deals. Here's what is owed (Rounded off/pro-rated):
               2012    13   14    15    16    17    18
    AGon:  $4M  21  21     21    21  21.5  21.5
    Craw:  $4M  20  20.5 20.5  21   21   ----
    Beck:  $3M  15.5 16  --------
    Punto: $.2M  1.5 --------------
                     12   13  14  15  16  17  18
    Total:  $11M  58  58  41  42  43  22

    The $11M saved this year puts us under the luxury limit and lowers future taxes and penalties.

    I'd probably  approve this trade for no prospects even if we paid:
    $3M this year (save $8M and get under cap), $18M in 2013 & 14 (save $40M each year), $8M in '15 & '16 (save $34M each year), and nothing in 2018 (save $22M).
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    moonslav59 the only concern is they go right out and sign the "best available players" on the market regardless of their "fit". We have seen it time and time again.

    You have to wonder if the Dodgers are looney to. What a line-up but wow on the salaries.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreenPartyCelt. Show GreenPartyCelt's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    As a Yankee fan, I approve of this trade. I agree that ridding the contracts of Beckett and CC are a good thing, but moving Gonzalez makes zero sense to me. None, nil, zilch, nada, no comprende. And you know the Sox are going to have to pay some serious salary on this. No way Dodgers take on such long term contracts without some help.
    Posted by jesseyeric

    Exactly, jess, but I am not so sure about CC...I think he is going to come back strong in 2013...Even injured he showed flashes of the old CC...But I would trade him with Beckett if I got something serious back....Rubby De La Rosa and James Loney plus unproven minor leaguers (no matter what the hopes are for them)....No bleeping way!!!!...Then you give the Dodgers an All-Star 1B on top of it who has been a very CLUTCH hitter (do not give me that glorified singles hitter stuff) even if his HR production is not what RSN was expectiing...And everyone assumes that all this money saved will go back into starting pitching and maybe resigning Ells....Then again maybe John Henry finally gets Liverpool a real striker up front for the hapless Reds (who lost to lowly West Brom on opening day)....Again, this trade is absolutely insane...I see it as takimg apart a great baseball team, and not a promise of immediate rebuilding to come...Red Sox fans will rue the day A-Gon has gone...Guaranteed....
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

     The thing is that Ortiz is not that player anymore.... anyone suggesting he is then please show me the last time he hit 35/100.

    He did hit 32  102 in 2010.
    29  96 in 2011.
    Was on pace for about 35  90 this year at a 600 PA pace.

    However, his timely hitting has decline a lot.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    Was on pace? Does that mean those are the numbers he out up? No. How old is he? How will he fair without an AGon in the line-up? Point is he is no longer that player.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    No, but 25-28 HR  90-94 RBI guys don't grow on trees either.

    I'm Ok with offering Papi just barely more than the top offer, but I'm also OK if he walks, as long as we spend the money to replace him and others.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    If we don't pay a cent of any of the deals, I'd be for this trade for nothing in return. Any decent prospects are icing on the cake.

    I like AGon, but at $22M, it's not a horrible loss, if we spend the savings wisely going forward.

    Just roughly, CC is, at best, a $14M player.  That's $30M we save over market.  Beckett over two years?  maybe you pay him $20-24M?  that's another $14M over market value.  I still like the Gonzo contract, but these are his W/K over the past 4 years.

    1.09
    .82
    .62
    .38

    I just don't like where that is headed.  Even in his last 41 games, where he has an outstanding .986 OPS, he still has a pedestrian 18/8 K/W.  And over his last 9 games, he isn't hitting at all.  Obviously a SSS, but I think we re-couped as much value as we could for these guys.

    And I have no idea why people are ignoring the prospects we picked up.  Two are top-100.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    Purely a salary dump. I approve though. We get zero in return. Many, many years ahead of lower division finishes. Apathy has set in.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    Purely a salary dump. I approve though. We get zero in return. Many, many years ahead of lower division finishes. Apathy has set in.
    Posted by sindarin-erebor


    Zero in return?  We got some legit prospects, plus whatever players we might be able to scrounge up with $260 million. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    As a Yankee fan, I approve of this trade. I agree that ridding the contracts of Beckett and CC are a good thing, but moving Gonzalez makes zero sense to me. None, nil, zilch, nada, no comprende. And you know the Sox are going to have to pay some serious salary on this. No way Dodgers take on such long term contracts without some help.
    Posted by jesseyeric


    Gonzalez is the prize for the Dodgers...Gordon-Crawford-Kemp-Gonzalez-Ramirez-Eithier...Pretty stout lineup...FYI the Dodgers entered this season with team payroll of 94M or about 106M behind the Yankees...Given thier brand and market they play in they can afford all three @ 58 plus the contract of Ramirez and they'd still have a total payroll entering next year below the luxary tax limit...

    http://baseball.about.com/od/newsrumors/a/2012-Baseball-Team-Payrolls.htm
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    Purely a salary dump. I approve though. We get zero in return. Many, many years ahead of lower division finishes. Apathy has set in.
    Posted by sindarin-erebor


    Two top-100 prospects is 'zero in return'?

    You're just cranky because I kicked your but last week in BDC.

    <needed to get that in for one of my rare top-level victories>
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    Boston isnt going to eat up too much.  Maybe more likely 10% or less for just first two years of the contract.  It would sounded stupid if Boston have to absorb 5 million to 7 millon dollars a year for Agonz, 3 to 4 million dollars a year on Beckett and 5 to 7 million dollars a year for CC.  That is almost paying 17 million dollars or could be more a year for nothing.  Remember Agonz/CC both have like 4 to 5 plus years left in their contract.  Heck no way that boston will keep absorbing money every year until the contract run out.  Dodgers know that Agonz/CC are both a talent players and also know they are being bit over-paid.  But look at Pujols, Fielder, Wilson, Sabathia, A-Rod, etc who are all being over-paid too.  Red Sox also can tell them that they win more likely win the world series this year if they just take these guys without b@tching about Boston absorbing $$$
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    So the Dodgers acquire Hanley Ramirez and Josh Beckett within a month of each other.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    Everything depends on what side of the fence you sit on. If you hate Beckett and CC it will be a good move. If you have oppposite thoughts not so good of a trade.

    As I stated on another thread.....
    There is nothing we can get or have ready in the minors that will replace Adrian.

    There is nothing we can get or have ready in the minors or on the team that can replace what CC can do and has done his whole career except last year.

    IMO there is nothing available in the Free Agent pool this coming year that is of consequence except maybe a couple of pitchers.

    The salary dump will do nothing to bring in better or equal players.
    Look at the list IMO not much there.

    We will be banking on IMO far too many minor league guys to play next year.
    We will be banking on too many pitchers that we have that have been inconsistent.

    I am not saying a trade or this trade is bad or good I am saying if you think this year is bad the next two or three could be as bad or worse.

    I doubt they will be better except in regards to the clubhouse issues.

    Then you have to wonder what FA would want to come here based upon the media and the fans?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    Yes we "hate" them. Hate Hate Hate Hate Hate Hate.... feel better calling us all haters? Hate Hate Hate Hate. 

    I haven't hated anyone since high school.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : BB is a simple sport.  It is all about production per dollar spent. Did you think we got $58M worth of production from those three guys? Like I said, I have nothing against these guys.  I like Gonzo, but doubt we'll get value in the last three years.  I like CC okay as person, but you really think he's worth $20M per?  I like Beckett too, but his K/W is down to 2.47.  That's his worst since 2006.
    Posted by Joebreidey




    This is the logic I don't understand.  WE didn't spend $58 million on these guys.  The owners did.  And now that they are saving all that money, do you think they will pass that on to the consumer (meaning us)?  Of course not.  So, assuming the money we spend on tickets, dogs and drinks reflects the enormous payroll the Sox owners acquired in an effort to produce a winning product, WE will still be spending $58 million on those guys and getting none of their production.  And if the owners just sit on the savings, then they get to offer an inferior product to us and pocket more profit for themselves.  Sound familiar?  Sounds like any corporation to me.  The best deal the Sox could have announced is that they had sold this team to a conglomerate of owners like Larry Bird, Tom Brady and moonslav.  That would lead to a WS contender quicker than anything Larry, Tom and John may have done, or not done.

    Letting Beckett go to the Dodgers who claimed him would have been both useful to the team and cost saving (and one hopes the savings would then be spent on acquiring a real ace for the team).  But Crawford and especially Gonzalez are being given away to save money.  That is akin to selling Babe Ruth.  If they had to go, then Ben C should have waited until the off-season when he could have involved multiple teams and decided on the best package of prospects and major leaguers to help his 2013 team.  I am wholly unimpressed with this package of prospects.

    Will you all still like this deal when none of the 4 prospects is playing in Boston by 2014 and Gonzalez and Crawford are playing for the second NL all-star game, and Beckett averages 16-18 wins a year for LA?  Becuase I think there is a good chance of all that happening.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : This is the logic I don't understand.  WE didn't spend $58 million on these guys.  The owners did.  And now that they are saving all that money, do you think they will pass that on to the consumer (meaning us)?  Of course not. Posted by parhunter55


    I have no idea why you think that.  To me it's kind of the Doubting Thomas viewpoint.  Up till now this ownership has clearly demonstrated a willingness to be one of the top spending teams in baseball, to exceed the luxury tax threshold etc.  There's no reason at this point to think they won't reinvest this money into the team on the field.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    Jim from Florida, you are absolutely correct on AGon.  He has been the best clutch hitter on this team for two years, and best RBI producer, regardless of not hitting the 40 or so HRs we all hoped for when he was traded here.  Fact is, there is NO ONE in the farm system that will replace that at ANY position, let alone while playing gold glove defense.  So why didn't the Sox win with him?  Pitching, plain and simple.  And that will always be the ticket to success.

    But Crawford?  Even as good as he was after his wrist was healed, the Sox have Bradley, who can do all that Carl did, and probably be a better fielder as well.  And he is just the top prospect.  The Sox have ample OF prospects who project to have .280ish BAve, with decent power and decent speed (Crawford never used his supposed blazing speed while in Boston...whatever happened to that foot race he and Jacoby were going to have?).

    Were the Sox to receive the top 4 pitching prospects in LA's system, I would feel differently about this deal, but they receive a guy who has had Tommy John surgery, another who is pitching not too well at A+ level, and two utility players (don't we have enough of these kinds of guys?).  I agree, they are just giving Crawford and Agon away.  If this board is a good measure, then the owners got the fan interest up and saved a bundle to line their pockets.  Good business decision on their part, but awful baseball decision.  Just imagine if you are a Dodgers fan; is their a single one who does not absolutely love this deal and think that their GM didn't just fleece the morons in Boston?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : I have no idea why you think that.  To me it's kind of the Doubting Thomas viewpoint.  Up till now this ownership has clearly demonstrated a willingness to be one of the top spending teams in baseball, to exceed the luxury tax threshold etc.  There's no reason at this point to think they won't reinvest this money into the team on the field.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    So you think they are going to lower ticket prices and the price of dogs and beer? 

    Or, is it you think they are going to go out and spend all that money on big FA contracts again? 

    Neither is in the cards I am afraid, and if that means I am a doubting Thomas, so be it.  Realist is my term for it.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

       
    Posts: 8252
    First: 6/4/2010
    Last: 8/25/2012
    You have to take this deal for what it is. A way to get rid of long term expensive contracts that were killing the payroll flexibility. A chance to start over again and rebuild the team. It will not improve the team immediately. The talent we are receiving does not come close to matching the talent we are losing.  It is a safe bet that the players we are losing will have some success with the Dodgers , and there will be plenty of complaining here about what a blunder this deal was. That is pretty sure to happen.  However , we are not winning now and there was no indication that we were going to.  So , this is a chance for a new beginning. I have to give Ben credit for making it happen. Only time will tell how it works out.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    This will truly be the beginning of a complete rebuild for the Sox.  The key here is to see what level of spending the Sox FO will go to in order to build a future winner in Boston.  If they decide to stay well below the luxury cap which it appears that is a definite goal with the dump in salary just achieved - then it will be interesting to see just what kind of team begins the season next year.  What of Ells?  Papi?  Could be an interesting winter. 

    With CC, Beckett and AGon all gone, what will this board find to complain about? 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    This will truly be the beginning of a complete rebuild for the Sox.  The key here is to see what level of spending the Sox FO will go to in order to build a future winner in Boston.  If they decide to stay well below the luxury cap which it appears that is a definite goal with the dump in salary just achieved - then it will be interesting to see just what kind of team begins the season next year.  What of Ells?  Papi?  Could be an interesting winter.  With CC, Beckett and AGon all gone, what will this board find to complain about? 
    Posted by traven


    Lackey.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    This will truly be the beginning of a complete rebuild for the Sox.  The key here is to see what level of spending the Sox FO will go to in order to build a future winner in Boston.  If they decide to stay well below the luxury cap which it appears that is a definite goal with the dump in salary just achieved - then it will be interesting to see just what kind of team begins the season next year.  What of Ells?  Papi?  Could be an interesting winter.  With CC, Beckett and AGon all gone, what will this board find to complain about? 
    Posted by traven

    No problem there. We will never run short of things to complain about. It is our nature.
     
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