The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from JetsMangione. Show JetsMangione's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    So they cut all of this salary, how does this make them better? There isn't a salary cap in baseball and what makes anyone think that they are going to spend money on free agents? Even if they did, which I highly doubt, who would want to come here? It's going to take some bad seasons where they get some decent draft picks to rebuild this team. It could be years before they are even close to being competitive again.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    This trade allows the Sox to be the Sox and not the Yankees.  The Yankees can eat money like candy and buy some more players and not worry about it.  The Sox simply can't.  Now there is room to menuver under the cap and still put a solid team on the field.  Theo thought he was cashman and the Sox paid dearly, BC has a better idea and I hope he sticks to it.  
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : Slomag is struggling to see the big picture.  He also doesn't realize that Agon didn't want to be here.  If he hadn't asked for a trade already (there are rumors that he did), then he most certainly would have this off season. Every MLB Executive who has commented on this deal is scratching their head wondering why the Dodgers would do this.  The deal is a no brainer for the Sox. 
    Posted by jasko2248


    Sorry Jasko, that's a lame argument - win some games, and everybody will be happy.  Most people on this board are trying to figure out how to land a head-case (Greinke), an addict (Hamilton) or an underperformer who is unhappy on his current team (Upton).  Compared to these three, Gonzalez was Little Mary Sunshine

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : That's right - they have in Sabathia what we had in Gonzalez - a highly paid player living up to his contract.  They didn't try to package Sabathia with A-Rod and Burnett to another team to get out from under their collective salaries.
    Posted by slomag

    Slomag I am not sure AGon is in Sabathia's class at the moment.

    Sabathia is great with very little decline in performance, you can't say that for AGon.  His numbers were supposed to improve away from SD.

    He has the best K/9 of his career this year at 9 and his BB/9 is great at 2.17.  The only chink is a higher HR/FB this year only.

    As I posted elsewhere AGon is walking less and less (OBP .343) and he is 11th at 1B in wRC+.   The percentage of pitches he has swung at outside the strike zone has increased 4 straight years up to 34.6%.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : Sorry Jasko, that's a lame argument - win some games, and everybody will be happy.  Most people on this board are trying to figure out how to land a head-case (Greinke), an addict (Hamilton) or an underperformer who is unhappy on his current team (Upton).  Compared to these three, Gonzalez was Little Mary Sunshine
    Posted by slomag


    The Sox organization needed to shake up the culture of this clubhouse and this was a great start.  All-Star names win Fantasy Leagues, but very rarely win Championships.  I liked Agon's production, but he wasn't happy here and wanted out.  "Winning some games" wasn't happening. The Sox are unlikely to re-invest into those three players you mentioned, so let's see how the offseason plays out before you condemn the front office for an August trade that seems to have been universally applauded by everyone in baseball who has taken the time to comment on it...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : Slomag I am not sure AGon is in Sabathia's class at the moment. Sabathia is great with very little decline in performance, you can't say that for AGon.  His numbers were supposed to improve away from SD. He has the best K/9 of his career this year at 9 and his BB/9 is great at 2.17.  The only chink is a higher HR/FB this year only. As I posted elsewhere AGon is walking less and less (OBP .343) and he is 11th at 1B in wRC+.   The percentage of pitches he has swung at outside the strike zone has increased 4 straight years up to 34.6%.
    Posted by tom-uk


    Peter Abraham asked Gonzalez why his walk rate was so low this year.  Gonzalez answered "I know exactly why, but I can't tell you."  Abraham thought he was joking.  My guess is Bobby Valentine asked him to be more agressive.  If he returns to career norms in LA, I'm going to assume I was right.

    Nothing about Gonzalez was declining.  He was walked more in SD because he was the only offensive threat.  His walks went down in Boston, but his average went up because he saw better pitches.  He posted the best OBP and second bets SLG of his career in 2011, and has been on a nearly identical pace since mid-June of 2012.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : The Sox organization needed to shake up the culture of this clubhouse and this was a great start.  All-Star names win Fantasy Leagues, but very rarely win Championships.  I liked Agon's production, but he wasn't happy here and wanted out.  "Winning some games" wasn't happening. The Sox are unlikely to re-invest into those three players you mentioned, so let's see how the offseason plays out before you condemn the front office for an August trade that seems to have been universally applauded by everyone in baseball who has taken the time to comment on it...
    Posted by jasko2248


    As a fan, I'm the consumer here, and the Sox just traded my favorite player.  So until they make me happy again somehow, I'm going to condemn them.

    Let's try this - if you have no idea what the plan is, and cannot even offer a suggestion as to how this team gets better than it was 24 hours ago, then don't condemn me for not being able to see the big picture.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    Cashman mitigated the effect of those underachievers by making two great trades for Swisher and Granderson plus great signings of Kuroda and Sabathia and decent drafts.

    While Granderson has certainly helped the Yanks since the trade, I'm not sure I'd call it a "great trade".

    The Yanks lost these guys in the deal:

    Ian Kennedy  41-24 3.57 with AZ
    Austin Jackson .309/.390/.498/.888 this year.
    (Phil Coke has not done well.)
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : As a fan, I'm the consumer here, and the Sox just traded my favorite player.  So until they make me happy again somehow, I'm going to condemn them. Let's try this - if you have no idea what the plan is, and cannot even offer a suggestion as to how this team gets better than it was 24 hours ago, then don't condemn me for not being able to see the big picture.
    Posted by slomag


    I don't get paid to shape the roster of th Boston Red Sox, and rarely make suggestions because I don't have access to all the necessary information to do so. YOU "suggested" signing Miguel Montero as a free agent, yet you couldn't even take the 10 seconds it requires to look up his contract and see that he is signed long term. 

    You have the right as a consumer to whine all you want, but where does it get you?  A bunch of people on a message board mocking you and that's about it.
     
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : I don't get paid to shape the roster of th Boston Red Sox, and rarely make suggestions because I don't have access to all the necessary information to do so. YOU "suggested" signing Miguel Montero as a free agent, yet you couldn't even take the 10 seconds it requires to look up his contract and see that he is signed long term.  You have the right as a consumer to whine all you want, but where does it get you?  A bunch of people on a message board mocking you and that's about it.  
    Posted by jasko2248


    I don't mind being mocked by Bill806 and rightymclefty.  I take comfort in it actually - not sure I'd be comfortable being on their side.

    My bad on Montero - Moon suggested signing him, and I don't feel I have to fact-check Moon's posts.  But FYI, this kind of nit-picking is the opposite of the 'big picture' which is what you have accused me of missing.  It's hard to get smaller-picture than such a remark, actually.

    So far, I have not seen anybody with even the vaguest outline of a plan of how we become a better team, other than those who suggest sucking for several years to build up the farm system.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    My bad on Montero - Moon suggested signing him, and I don't feel I have to fact-check Moon's posts.  But FYI, this kind of nit-picking is the opposite of the 'big picture' which is what you have accused me of missing.  It's hard to get smaller-picture than such a remark, actually.

    Yes, it was me who led him astray. My bad. 

    I actually did look it up on Cot's list of available FAs for 2013, but I guess they didn't update it and still haven't.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : I don't mind being mocked by Bill806 and rightymclefty.  I take comfort in it actually - not sure I'd be comfortable being on their side. My bad on Montero - Moon suggested signing him, and I don't feel I have to fact-check Moon's posts.  But FYI, this kind of nit-picking is the opposite of the 'big picture' which is what you have accused me of missing.  It's hard to get smaller-picture than such a remark, actually. So far, I have not seen anybody with even the vaguest outline of a plan of how we become a better team, other than those who suggest sucking for several years to build up the farm system.
    Posted by slomag


    No one who posts on this board or anyone in the Sox Front Office for that matter, has the slighest clue as to what the Sox will do this offseason, as anything can happen.  I know they won't resort to "sucking for several years" to rebuild, though.  They still have a talented core of players to build around, several trade chips to use if they covet a player, some young exciting players on the way and the financial resources to basically do whatever they want, which is why you might want to wait until Spring Training before you cop the "we are doomed" attitude.   
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    And, if and when AGon, beckett and/or CC do well for LA, we will see many posters saying, "see, I told you so", but I'll say right now, I think AGon will do very well next year, Beckett will have a typical odd season good year, and Cc will eventually contribute, but never live up to even a $13M contract, but I still love this deal. 

    1) I seriously doubt Beckett & Crawford would do as well under the Boston spotlight and hyper-negativity media campaign as they will in LA.

    2) Even if they all do well, we can do better with $60M a year than these three combined. (about $260M total)

    3) If this isn't a wake up call to all the other players, I don't know what is. We always hear, "you can't fire the players", ...well... we just proved that age-old axiom wrong.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : No one who posts on this board or anyone in the Sox Front Office for that matter, has the slighest clue as to what the Sox will do this offseason, as anything can happen.  I know they won't resort to "sucking for several years" to rebuild, though.  They still have a talented core of players to build around, several trade chips to use if they covet a player, some young exciting players on the way and the financial resources to basically do whatever they want, which is why you might want to wait until Spring Training before you cop the "we are doomed" attitude.   
    Posted by jasko2248

    I'm generally optimistic, and I'm sure I will be again by next Spring, but right now I'm hurting.  I loved Gonzalez, and Crawford, though overpaid, was fun to watch this year in limited time.  And I still have a soft spot for Beckett, because no single player in the past 90 years has been more directly responsible for a Red Sox Championship than Josh Beckett was in 2007.  This is a really bad day for me, and it feels much worse seeing so many self-proclaimed Red Sox fans celebrating the dollars in John Henry's pockets.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    And, if and when AGon, beckett and/or CC do well for LA, we will see many posters saying, "see, I told you so", but I'll say right now, I think AGon will do very well next year, Beckett will have a typical odd season good year, and Cc will eventually contribute, but never live up to even a $13M contract, but I still love this deal.  1) I seriously doubt Beckett & Crawford would do as well under the Boston spotlight and hyper-negativity media campaign as the y will in LA. 2) Even if they all do well, we can do better with $60M a year than these three combined. (about $260M total) 3) If this isn't a wake up call to all the other players, I don't know what is. We always hear, "you can't fire the players", ...well... we just proved that age-old axiom wrong.
    Posted by moonslav59

    1) Maybe not, but if either bounced back at all you could trade them and possibly absorb salary without giving up Gonzalez.

    2) Not with the 2013 available free agents.  And when you talk about trades, you have to factor in the value of the prospects.

    3) Potential free agents are paying attention too.  Who's going to jump at a chance to sign with this team?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : I'm generally optimistic, and I'm sure I will be again by next Spring, but right now I'm hurting.  I loved Gonzalez, and Crawford, though overpaid, was fun to watch this year in limited time.  And I still have a soft spot for Beckett, because no single player in the past 90 years has been more directly responsible for a Red Sox Championship than Josh Beckett was in 2007.  This is a really bad day for me, and it feels much worse seeing so many self-proclaimed Red Sox fans celebrating the dollars in John Henry's pockets.  
    Posted by slomag


    Perfectly understandable, Slomag.  As a kid, I was crushed when they traded Fred Lynn for two guys well passed their prime and a marginal prospect.  I just think they got rid of some guys who didn't want to be here and this roster clearly needed a shakeup.  This isn't a fire sale like the Marlins had in the late 90's, they still have plenty of talent and I'm sure the team that takes the field in '13 will compete for a playoff spot if they don't suffer through a ton of injuries.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

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    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : Doubles hitter not singles amp . This team needs someone just like him and then another bat of the 35 homer 100 ribbies .250 type. That is the peanut butter/chocolate combo.  The thing is that Ortiz is not that player anymore.... anyone suggesting he is then please show me the last time he hit 35/100. Also AGon is the quintessential #3 hitter, with the missing 35/100 hitter for ther 4 hole. Oh well.... as I said I am happy to unload Beckett and Crawford.
    Posted by EnchiladaT

    Ench, 

    You're nitpicking with Ortiz. Over the prior three seasons Davids driven in 297 runs which averages out to 99rbis a season with 89hrs or 30 per year. Not far off 35/100 I would think. Even in his injury shorten season in 08 he still drove in 89rbis. This year before the injury he was well on his way to over 35hrs and probably 110rbis. Before you leave uninformed notes to the group you should do some research. 

    Hetch

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : par, Pedey's OBP is not in steady decline: 380 />376>371>367> 387 >337 He had his highest career OBP last year. He's been playing hurt recently, and that is a big concern going forward, but his OBP does not concern me over a 3/4 year decline. Ciriaco shows a lot of promise, but he only has 170 career PAs with only 5 walks. In 3,500 minor league PAs, his OBP was .299. I love this kid and think is fielding is very good, but I'm hardly ready to say we would not drop off by replacing Pedey with Pedro.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Looks like a steady decline with one abberation, an injury shortened year at that (hence the smaller sample size).  OR, it is a drastic and sudden decline.  Regardless, Pedroia has looked impatient at bat all year, and much of last.  And he hits a lot of ground balls to short trying to hit pitches that he should have let go by.  If Gonzalez can be replaced with Mauro Gomez and James Loney, Pedroia can be replaced with Ciriaco.  Not saying it should be done, but am saying that if Pedey could bring a good starter that would make dealing him very attractive to me.  I believe his best years are behind him, and his ego has gotten too big for his britches.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    " This is a really bad day for me, and it feels much worse seeing so many self-proclaimed Red Sox fans celebrating the dollars in John Henry's pockets.  "

    Interesting - I'm really happy so the reaction varies. My only objection to your reaction is your implication that if you're happy about today's events you're not a true fan. 

    This was a chance for the team to re-invent. It was easy to see that it wasn't working. 

    You may have liked the players but those were all bad contracts. The only question was how bad. 

    Where you are correct is that there will be challenges ahead, and the Sox will have to spend money to win, it can't all be young guys and prospects. Will they spend it well? Will the bigger contracts be good ones? 

    For me I have felt bad about this team for about a year now and I feel great. 

    I wish the guys luck for their service to the team and they all seem very happy about the trade as well.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

     Nothing about Gonzalez was declining.  He was walked more in SD because he was the only offensive threat.  His walks went down in Boston, but his average went up because he saw better pitches.  He posted the best OBP and second bets SLG of his career in 2011, and has been on a nearly identical pace since mid-June of 2012.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I don't think the numbers back that statement up.

    His BABIP in 2011 was .380 (career .323) which gave him a great OBP.  His LD% in 2011 was a career norm 21.2%.   I think it is fair to conclude that his .338 BA was an outlier ( career BA .294, 2nd best .304).

    Take away the IBB and his career OBP is .356.

            BB      IBB
    '09   119       22
    '10   93         35
    '11   74         20
    '12   31          4

    His walks went down in Boston, but his average went up because he saw better pitches.

    Not true actually he saw the least amount of strikes of his career in 2011 (zone% 39.8% for 2011, career 45.4%).

    Road OPS 2011  .986        2012  .755     

    His 2011 numbers were very good but I'd say unlikely to repeat a .380 BABIP.  

    Percentage of pitches swung at out of strike zone:

    09    23%
    10    32%
    11    36%
    12    37%







     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : No they're not going to lower prices, but there's no reason to think they're not going to spend it on acquiring players. Your view isn't realist, it's pessimist, because you have nothing to base it on except your own gut feelings.  Recent history says otherwise.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut



    What recent history?  The one where the Sox spent over $300 million to ink Gonzalez, Beckett and Crawford to long-term contracts?  It makes no sense for the Sox to save $260 million  and then go out and over spend on more free agents to replace those they just relieved themselves of, especially since (other than Hamilton, who should not come to play in Boston) there are no players of equal pedigree available for that same $260 million.

    And if your idea is to spend on low-cost/high reward types?  First, let me point out that 10 decent players is not equally as valuable as 3 all-stars (and let me again state that I think Ben should have stuck the Dodgers with Beckett after they claimed him).  Remember, you only have a 25 man roster.  Adding, say, 6 players to replace these three means three somebodies get bumped or blocked.  Second, let me ask, what recent history am I being pessimistic about?  The one that saw the Sox go cheap after losing out on Teixeira and letting CC go uncontested?  How many of those cheap options are a) still playing on this team, or b) made a significant contribution to the team, helping them to make the playoffs and WS.  The answer would be none.  That is our recent history.  That is reality.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : What recent history?  The one where the Sox spent over $300 million to ink Gonzalez, Beckett and Crawford to long-term contracts?  It makes no sense for the Sox to save $260 million  and then go out and over spend on more free agents to replace those they just relieved themselves of, especially since (other than Hamilton, who should not come to play in Boston) there are no players of equal pedigree available for that same $260 million. And if your idea is to spend on low-cost/high reward types?  First, let me point out that 10 decent players is not equally as valuable as 3 all-stars (and let me again state that I think Ben should have stuck the Dodgers with Beckett after they claimed him).  Remember, you only have a 25 man roster.  Adding, say, 6 players to replace these three means three somebodies get bumped or blocked.  Second, let me ask, what recent history am I being pessimistic about?  The one that saw the Sox go cheap after losing out on Teixeira and letting CC go uncontested?  How many of those cheap options are a) still playing on this team, or b) made a significant contribution to the team, helping them to make the playoffs and WS.  The answer would be none.  That is our recent history.  That is reality.
    Posted by parhunter55
    The problem wasn't that we went out and signed free agents, it was the length of the contracts. There's nothing wrong with augmenting your team through free agency, but you have to be smart about it. 2 and 3 year deals only. And if they need 5+ years let the Yankees have them.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    Cashman mitigated the effect of those underachievers by making two great trades for Swisher and Granderson plus great signings of Kuroda and Sabathia and decent drafts. While Granderson has certainly helped the Yanks since the trade, I'm not sure I'd call it a "great trade". The Yanks lost these guys in the deal: Ian Kennedy  41-24 3.57 with AZ Austin Jackson .309/.390/.498/.888 this year. (Phil Coke has not done well.)
    Posted by moonslav59


    Agreed
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : As a fan, I'm the consumer here, and the Sox just traded my favorite player.  So until they make me happy again somehow, I'm going to condemn them. Let's try this - if you have no idea what the plan is, and cannot even offer a suggestion as to how this team gets better than it was 24 hours ago, then don't condemn me for not being able to see the big picture.
    Posted by slomag


    The albatross contracts are largely gone, freeing them up to reshape the team in the off season. My guess is they had to add AGon to the pkg in order to make LAD bite. Another issue was the culture thing, which reared its ugly head only recently with the Pesky funeral (few showed) & the Beckett party (many showed) shortly after.

    The FO (another culture thing) also needs to give BV "managerial powers", even if its only for the rest of the year.

    Now if they can only do this with Lackey....
     
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    Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?

    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve?:
    In Response to Re: The Blockbuster: Approve or Not Approve? : The problem wasn't that we went out and signed free agents, it was the length of the contracts. There's nothing wrong with augmenting your team through free agency, but you have to be smart about it. 2 and 3 year deals only. And if they need 5+ years let the Yankees have them.
    Posted by carnie


    I think even the Yankees have learned their lesson; very few long term contracts worked out.
     
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