The changeup

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    The changeup

    Beckett's got a good one and it has really helped him this year.

    Lester has one, but doesn't like to throw it, and that has hurt him this year.

    Comments? 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The changeup

    Usually when pitcher's aren't throwing a pitch they have it is because they can't command it or it isn't good enough to throw when down in the count.

    Lester has not had good command for a few starts now. When he misses locations with the two seam and four seamers he certainly believes he has a better chance of the pitch producing an out when that misplaced pitch is put into play IMHO.

    It was reason why Papelbon threw so many fastballs last year. Bad command. Could not afford to throw the split out of the zone and felt it would get hit in the zone. He ended up with a lot of long ABs because guys could foul off a lot fastballs because they were sitting on them until they either walked or squared one up.

    IMO anytime you see a pitcher leaning on one pitch or in Lester's case two versions of one pitch, the root is a lack of confidence in the remaining pitches in his bag and that he is pitching in hitters counts because of so so command of his best pitch.

    Not to be a dead horse but that effects CERA and is totally out of the control of the catcher.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: The changeup

    I think the use of the change up is a two step process:  1.  learn how to throw it (Lester has achieved this), 2.  learn to trust it (Lester hasn't done this yet).  He knows when to throw it by now (and of course has help from his catcher in this regard).  But the trust in it is harder than any other pitch.  Unlike a fastball that overpowers a hitter, or a breaking ball that fools the hitter with the movement of the pitch itself, it fools the hitter only by messing with his expectation.  It is a pitch that is completely cat & mouse.  Right now Lester feels like the mouse with it.  But, I suspect, student of the game and hard worker that he is, he will grow into his change up as his career goes on.  But, he may not get there this year.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The changeup

    Interesting--and disappointing 

    I was hoping that someone would say, "baloney.  His pitches are fine.  He doesn't need a stupid changeup.  He's as good as he ever was." 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The changeup

    Well his biggest problem right now is missing locations with his cutter but any pitcher benefits from more pitches, it certainly expands the guessing game for the hitter.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The changeup

    Boy do I believe that.  Tonight we'll know more.  Go, Jon, beat Bronx Bombers. 
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The changeup

    A pitcher needs to have one or two off-speed pitches to be effective. I disagree with Spaceman that a FB is used to overpower hitters. If a hitter is looking FB, he can hit it all day regardless of velocity. It's when you throw the off-speed stuff that gets the hitter guessing.

    I believe it was Warren Spahn who said, "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting the hitter's timing".
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The changeup

    Pretty good quote from Spahnie. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: The changeup

    In Response to Re: The changeup:
    [QUOTE]A pitcher needs to have one or two off-speed pitches to be effective. I disagree with Spaceman that a FB is used to overpower hitters. If a hitter is looking FB, he can hit it all day regardless of velocity. It's when you throw the off-speed stuff that gets the hitter guessing. I believe it was Warren Spahn who said, "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting the hitter's timing".
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    We are not in disagreement here Ike.  I was being obstuse in trying to boil down a given pitch's nature-of-effectiveness for the sake of getting to the point about the nature of the change.  If you read the rest of my post, we are actually saying the same thing.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: The changeup

    The changeup is a great pitch on 2 and 0 or 3 and 1 if well located. Spahn did this very well, along with a slow curve ball.  It also has another use on days when the pitcher doesn't have great command of it; that is, when he's not putting it where he likes in the strike zone.  On 0 and 2 or even 1 and 2, it can be deliberately thrown in the dirt or even bounced. Any pitcher should be able to do that. The point is to show the batter a different speed and to lower the eye level. An over-anxious batter sitting on the FB might even chase the pitch. 
    It need not be abandoned on days when a pitcher does not have his best command of it.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from siestafiesta. Show siestafiesta's posts

    Re: The changeup

    I would say that Beckett's change is decent but not great.  He gets good movement on it but difference in velocity between his change and fastball aren't great. 

    Pedro threw a ridiculous changeup and right now Buchholz has one of the better ones in baseball.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The changeup

    In Response to Re: The changeup:
    [QUOTE]Usually when pitcher's aren't throwing a pitch they have it is because they can't command it or it isn't good enough to throw when down in the count. Lester has not had good command for a few starts now. When he misses locations with the two seam and four seamers he certainly believes he has a better chance of the pitch producing an out when that misplaced pitch is put into play IMHO. It was reason why Papelbon threw so many fastballs last year. Bad command. Could not afford to throw the split out of the zone and felt it would get hit in the zone. He ended up with a lot of long ABs because guys could foul off a lot fastballs because they were sitting on them until they either walked or squared one up. IMO anytime you see a pitcher leaning on one pitch or in Lester's case two versions of one pitch, the root is a lack of confidence in the remaining pitches in his bag and that he is pitching in hitters counts because of so so command of his best pitch. Not to be a dead horse but that effects CERA and is totally out of the control of the catcher.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]


    Let me add a few things to this.
    Poor command stems from poor/erratic mechanics. Essentially, not repeating UR delivery. Adjustments are made, which might benefit one pitch, but hurt another.
    That's why pitchers seldom have everything working in sync.

    This is when a catcher is most relevant.
    He's least relevant when a pitcher is either in top form or has nothing.

    In Lester's case, he has enough action on his change to induce DP's.
    And he deploys it accordingly. Pitchers don't like to show their ace up their sleeve until they have to.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: The changeup

    In Response to Re: The changeup:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The changeup : Let me add a few things to this. Poor command stems from poor/erratic mechanics. Essentially, not repeating UR delivery. Adjustments are made, which might benefit one pitch, but hurt another. That's why pitchers seldom have everything working in sync. This is when a catcher is most relevant. He's least relevant when a pitcher is either in top form or has nothing. In Lester's case, he has enough action on his change to induce DP's. And he deploys it accordingly. Pitchers don't like to show their ace up their sleeve until they have to.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]When the pitcher is going through an extended streak like this it is out of the catcher's control. It is safe to say that the entire staff, Lester, Young, both the catchers and every other brain the RS have on hand has been looking at video and trying to see where the mechanical breakdowns are. Now they may be so minor or Lester may be playing with pain but this is a little bigger than the catcher going to the mound and syaing "your shoulder is flying open", giving Letser a pat on the butt and going back behind the plate.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: The changeup

    Totally agree Katz.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from freediro. Show freediro's posts

    Re: The changeup

    The pitcher has to be one of the most complex things to maintain on the baseball field. Some days you just got it and no matter what guys are swinging and missing even if location is perfect. Lester clearly is injured or is not happy with his mechanics, not only from the consistent looks to the mound like Beckett used to do last year when he was pitching terrible. I agree with katz, but a win versus the Yanks goes a long way mentally which can help him get more locked into his mechanics. Lets hope something isn't bothering him physically.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: The changeup

    In Response to Re: The changeup:
    [QUOTE]The changeup is a great pitch on 2 and 0 or 3 and 1 if well located. Spahn did this very well, along with a slow curve ball.  It also has another use on days when the pitcher doesn't have great command of it; that is, when he's not putting it where he likes in the strike zone.  On 0 and 2 or even 1 and 2, it can be deliberately thrown in the dirt or even bounced. Any pitcher should be able to do that. The point is to show the batter a different speed and to lower the eye level. An over-anxious batter sitting on the FB might even chase the pitch.  It need not be abandoned on days when a pitcher does not have his best command of it.  
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Agreed. I think Buch uses it far too much and the opposing batters are finally figuring it out that he relies on off-speed stuff when he gets in a bind. He has a good FB and should mix it in more often.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: The changeup

    After watching last night's game, I have to say the changeup, which I never saw, was not the issue.  My goodness, he hit Teixeira on an 0-2 count--that says it all.  I have to give him credit for getting through six innings and not giving up any dingers. 
     
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