The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    Not all trades work out for the good, but...


    looking through past Sox transactions and drafts, I can't help but notice how some trades just seem to keep on giving and giving...


    The Nomar for Cabrera deal not only helped us win our ring in 2004, losing Cabrera to free agency after 2004 gave us the comp picks that ended up being Ellsbury and Lowrie. Ellsbury helped us win a ring in 07 and 13, then losing him to free agency allowed us to draft Michael Kopech with the 33rd pick. Lowrie was the big part of the trade that brought us Melancon. Melancon was the big part of the trade that brought us Holt. 


    The trade on July 31, 1997 that sent Slocumb to Seattle for Varitek and Lowe not only helped us win rings in 2004 and 2007, when Lowe left to free agency, we ended up getting Craig Hansen & Michael Bowden. Hansen was part of the Manny for Bay trade, and Bowden brought us Marlon Byrd. I wish we had kept Byrd, and Jason bay's departure to free agency brought us Brentz & Workman.


    In a 2009 waiver wire deal, the Sox sent Cris Carter (Not that one) and Eddie Lora to the Mets for Billy Wagner. After Wagner left to free agency, we got Anthony Ranaudo with one of the comp picks (Vitek was the other).


    Giving up Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr in 2007 for Pedro Martinez was certainly one of our all time best trades. Pedro gave fans many fine years, including what I believe to be the most dominating 7 years any starting pitcher has ever had when compared to his peers and his era, and a ring in 2004. However, his departure to free agency also brought us Clay Buccholz via a comp pick.


    Some poster still complain about the trade of Masterson for 1.3 years of VMart, but VMart almost helped us get over the hump and win another ring, but honestly, I would not trade the comp picks we got for VMart for Masterson straight up: Henry Owens and Matt Barnes.


    We didn't get Adrian Beltre via the trade route, but after getting one spectacular year from him at a relatively low cost, we ended up drafting Swihart and JBJ with the comp picks gained by his departure. And, who knows if Brian Johnson might outshine Papelbon's end of career numbers.


    It's too early to tell on some of these deals, but I think it's interesting to see how deals made long ago can still be making an impact on our current team and the team that may be in the future someday.


     


    Sox4ever

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    GREAT POST!!!!!  Thanks for doing that research!  Very interesting stuff and puts a lot into perspective.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In a 2009 waiver wire deal, the Sox sent Cris Carter (Not that one) and Eddie Lora to the Mets for Billy Wagner. After Wagner left to free agency, we got Anthony Ranaudo with one of the comp picks (Vitek was the other).

    [/QUOTE]

    What you left out there was that Carter was obtained for Wily Mo Pena.

    As much heat as Theo has taken over the years for trading Arroyo for Pena, he managed to turn Pena into Ranaudo.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from scottwad. Show scottwad's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    Great post. You shine the light on the process.


    scottwad24

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    djcbuffum, you missed the part in Francona's book where he revealed that Theo Epstein secretly traveled back in time from 2007 to 1997 to get Duquette to acquire Pedro, thus altering Red Sox and baseball history. Certainly one of the most badass trades of all time.

     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    This is indeed an excellent topic. Many posters, I think, only look at the immediate impact (letting this guy go, or signing this guy) and fail to see the long term consequences.


    Years from now, the decisions Ben made this past winter will be viewed in light of whatever Chavis (the pick we would have lost, if I'm not mistaken, if we'd signed another team's QO guy, as many wanted) and Kopech (comp pick for Ellsbury) turn into.


    Even with Bradley's offensive struggles in the first half of this season, I'll still take JBJ+Kopech+$20mil per year to spend on other needs over Ellsbury and his contract in the long term.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    It shows the value and importance of long-term thinking.  I remember all the whining about the guys we let go in 2005, and since.  Theo's true genius wasn't in drafting, but with the accumulation of numerous high draft picks.  Theo made an art form out of acquiring for guys that would hopefully turn into Type A's-OCab, VMart, Bay, Beltre.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    The Billy Wagner trade in 2009 was actually sheer genius.  They paid a few million for his services, and then got not one but two draft picks for him, one used for Ranaudo.  That was abusing the system at its finest.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not all trades work out for the good, but...

     

    looking through past Sox transactions and drafts, I can't help but notice how some trades just seem to keep on giving and giving...

     

    The Nomar for Cabrera deal not only helped us win our ring in 2004, losing Cabrera to free agency after 2004 gave us the comp picks that ended up being Ellsbury and Lowrie. Ellsbury helped us win a ring in 07 and 13, then losing him to free agency allowed us to draft Michael Kopech with the 33rd pick. Lowrie was the big part of the trade that brought us Melancon. Melancon was the big part of the trade that brought us Holt. 

     

    The trade on July 31, 1997 that sent Slocumb to Seattle for Varitek and Lowe not only helped us win rings in 2004 and 2007, when Lowe left to free agency, we ended up getting Craig Hansen & Michael Bowden. Hansen was part of the Manny for Bay trade, and Bowden brought us Marlon Byrd. I wish we had kept Byrd, and Jason bay's departure to free agency brought us Brentz & Workman.

     

    In a 2009 waiver wire deal, the Sox sent Cris Carter (Not that one) and Eddie Lora to the Mets for Billy Wagner. After Wagner left to free agency, we got Anthony Ranaudo with one of the comp picks (Vitek was the other).

     

    Giving up Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr in 2007 for Pedro Martinez was certainly one of our all time best trades. Pedro gave fans many fine years, including what I believe to be the most dominating 7 years any starting pitcher has ever had when compared to his peers and his era, and a ring in 2004. However, his departure to free agency also brought us Clay Buccholz via a comp pick.

     

    Some poster still complain about the trade of Masterson for 1.3 years of VMart, but VMart almost helped us get over the hump and win another ring, but honestly, I would not trade the comp picks we got for VMart for Masterson straight up: Henry Owens and Matt Barnes.

     

    We didn't get Adrian Beltre via the trade route, but after getting one spectacular year from him at a relatively low cost, we ended up drafting Swihart and JBJ with the comp picks gained by his departure. And, who knows if Brian Johnson might outshine Papelbon's end of career numbers.

     

    It's too early to tell on some of these deals, but I think it's interesting to see how deals made long ago can still be making an impact on our current team and the team that may be in the future someday.

     

     

     

    Sox4ever

    [/QUOTE]

    Excellent post, fun read.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to Buddin1956's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not all trades work out for the good, but...

     

    looking through past Sox transactions and drafts, I can't help but notice how some trades just seem to keep on giving and giving...

     

    The Nomar for Cabrera deal not only helped us win our ring in 2004, losing Cabrera to free agency after 2004 gave us the comp picks that ended up being Ellsbury and Lowrie. Ellsbury helped us win a ring in 07 and 13, then losing him to free agency allowed us to draft Michael Kopech with the 33rd pick. Lowrie was the big part of the trade that brought us Melancon. Melancon was the big part of the trade that brought us Holt. 

     

    The trade on July 31, 1997 that sent Slocumb to Seattle for Varitek and Lowe not only helped us win rings in 2004 and 2007, when Lowe left to free agency, we ended up getting Craig Hansen & Michael Bowden. Hansen was part of the Manny for Bay trade, and Bowden brought us Marlon Byrd. I wish we had kept Byrd, and Jason bay's departure to free agency brought us Brentz & Workman.

     

    In a 2009 waiver wire deal, the Sox sent Cris Carter (Not that one) and Eddie Lora to the Mets for Billy Wagner. After Wagner left to free agency, we got Anthony Ranaudo with one of the comp picks (Vitek was the other).

     

    Giving up Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr in 2007 for Pedro Martinez was certainly one of our all time best trades. Pedro gave fans many fine years, including what I believe to be the most dominating 7 years any starting pitcher has ever had when compared to his peers and his era, and a ring in 2004. However, his departure to free agency also brought us Clay Buccholz via a comp pick.

     

    Some poster still complain about the trade of Masterson for 1.3 years of VMart, but VMart almost helped us get over the hump and win another ring, but honestly, I would not trade the comp picks we got for VMart for Masterson straight up: Henry Owens and Matt Barnes.

     

    We didn't get Adrian Beltre via the trade route, but after getting one spectacular year from him at a relatively low cost, we ended up drafting Swihart and JBJ with the comp picks gained by his departure. And, who knows if Brian Johnson might outshine Papelbon's end of career numbers.

     

    It's too early to tell on some of these deals, but I think it's interesting to see how deals made long ago can still be making an impact on our current team and the team that may be in the future someday.

     

     

     

    Sox4ever

    [/QUOTE]

    This must have taken a ton of research. Thank you so much. I never was aware of these details.

    [/QUOTE]

    Pike, why are you stalking MOONSLAV?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    Great read about the good ones (rather not know the bad ones).  Masterson for a year of Vmart plus Owens and Barnes, wow, great trade!  Swihart and JBJ for Beltre sure takes the sting out of not re-signing Adrian.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In a 2009 waiver wire deal, the Sox sent Cris Carter (Not that one) and Eddie Lora to the Mets for Billy Wagner. After Wagner left to free agency, we got Anthony Ranaudo with one of the comp picks (Vitek was the other).

    [/QUOTE]

    What you left out there was that Carter was obtained for Wily Mo Pena.

    As much heat as Theo has taken over the years for trading Arroyo for Pena, he managed to turn Pena into Ranaudo.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Good point. So, the "ill-fated" Arroyo trade might end up reaping benefits many years later.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to djcbuffum's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Giving up Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr in 2007 for Pedro Martinez was certainly one of our all time best trades. Pedro gave fans many fine years, including what I believe to be the most dominating 7 years any starting pitcher has ever had when compared to his peers and his era, and a ring in 2004. However, his departure to free agency also brought us Clay Buccholz via a comp pick.

    [/QUOTE]

    You mean 1997 not 2007.

    [/QUOTE]


    As my governor would say, "Ooops!"

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Billy Wagner trade in 2009 was actually sheer genius.  They paid a few million for his services, and then got not one but two draft picks for him, one used for Ranaudo.  That was abusing the system at its finest.

    [/QUOTE]


    The Rays got pretty good at trading for guys in August that would be type B free agents and net them a draft pick, plus the stockpiled mediocre relief pitchers rated B. However, they haven't had a lot of luck with those comp picks, so far.

    2011 was absurd. The Rays had 10 picks before the 2nd round even began and then 2 second rounders. Here's who they got...

     

    1 * 24 Taylor Guerrieri RHP Spring Valley HS (Columbia SC) HS 1,600,000 1,242,000 ?

    1 * 31 Mikie Mahtook OF Louisiana St. U. (Baton Rouge LA) COL 1,150,000 972,000 ?

    1 32 Jake Hager SS Sierra Vista HS (Las Vegas NV) HS 963,000 954,000 PRI

    1s * 38 Brandon Martin SS Santiago HS (Corona CA) HS 860,000 858,600 GCL

    1s * 41 Tyler Goeddel 3B St. Francis HS (Mountain View CA) HS 1,500,000 815,400 ?

    1s * 42 Jeff Ames RHP Lower Columbia JC (Longview WA) JC 650,000 802,800 PRI

    1s * 52 Blake Snell LHP Shorewood HS (Shoreline WA) HS 684,000 684,000 GCL

    1s * 56 Kes Carter OF Western Kentucky U. (Bowling Green KY) COL 625,000 643,500 HDV

    1s * 59 Grayson Garvin LHP Vanderbilt U. (Nashville TN) COL 370,000 614,700 ?

    1s * 60 James Harris, Jr. OF Oakland Technical HS (Hayward CA) HS 490,000 605,700 GCL

    2 * 75 Granden Goetzman OF Palmetto HS (Palmetto FL) HS 490,000 485,100 GCL

    2 89 Lenny Linsky RHP U. of Hawaii (Hilo HI) COL 392,400

     

    24 Crawford

    31 Soriano

    38 Soriano

    41 Crawford

    42 Balfour

    52 Hawpe

    56 Benoit

    59 Choate

    60 Qualls

    75 Balfour

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    This must have taken a ton of research. Thank you so much. I never was aware of these details.

    Thanks. Much of this was from memory, but I did double check.

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Pike, why are you stalking MOONSLAV?

    Because one time, I called him worse than softy. The volcano erupted and has been rumbling on and off ever since.

    Sox4ever

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    Tampa took Guerrieri with the #24 pick we lost to them for signing Carl Crawford.

    Funny to think that, as amazing as the 2011 draft was for us, it could potentially have been even better.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    The Marlins want Xander, Vaz/Swi, Betts/Devers, Owens---2-definites--Xander & Owens and 2 of the other 4.

    You are dancing with the wrong girl. Sign Lester as the anchor of your rotation and if you are going to make trades be selective and use your "chips" in the minor leagues for other players of value. Lester for 5,6,7 years will ultimately be a bargain and keep him from the Yankees or other contenders.

    Would you do Xander or another top prospect for Beltre and a "good prospect" then extend Beltre? Beltre has some milestones coming. To me Beltre in the middle of the Ortiz,Nap, Beltre--might be very formidable for another 1 1/2 years. To get Stanton and pay him $200 M and give up our top prospects--I would rather  take a shot one for one---Beltre is plenty good for me and in four years-we should be able to find another top suspect in that time.

    Betts (RF), Holt(SS), Pedroia(2B), Ortiz(DH), Nap(1B), Beltre(3B), JBJ(CF), Brentz(LF), Vaz/Swi C

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to MadMc44's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The Marlins want Xander, Vaz/Swi, Betts/Devers, Owens---2-definites--Xander & Owens and 2 of the other 4.

    You are dancing with the wrong girl. Sign Lester as the anchor of your rotation and if you are going to make trades be selective and use your "chips" in the minor leagues for other players of value. Lester for 5,6,7 years will ultimately be a bargain and keep him from the Yankees or other contenders.

    Would you do Xander or another top prospect for Beltre and a "good prospect" then extend Beltre? Beltre has some milestones coming. To me Beltre in the middle of the Ortiz,Nap, Beltre--might be very formidable for another 1 1/2 years. To get Stanton and pay him $200 M and give up our top prospects--I would rather  take a shot one for one---Beltre is plenty good for me and in four years-we should be able to find another top suspect in that time.

    Betts (RF), Holt(SS), Pedroia(2B), Ortiz(DH), Nap(1B), Beltre(3B), JBJ(CF), Brentz(LF), Vaz/Swi C

    [/QUOTE]


    I think they may take Betts, Owens, de la Rosa Cecchini and Devers

    (I'd sub Vazquez or Swihart for Betts or Owens, but not anyone else.)

     

    I'd consider giving up Bogey, something I did not suggest until now, so maybe...

    Bogey, and 2 from Betts, Owens, Vazquez/Swihart maybe add Margot or Coyle.

    (To me, this is a good starting point.)

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not all trades work out for the good, but...

     

    looking through past Sox transactions and drafts, I can't help but notice how some trades just seem to keep on giving and giving...

     

    The Nomar for Cabrera deal not only helped us win our ring in 2004, losing Cabrera to free agency after 2004 gave us the comp picks that ended up being Ellsbury and Lowrie. Ellsbury helped us win a ring in 07 and 13, then losing him to free agency allowed us to draft Michael Kopech with the 33rd pick. Lowrie was the big part of the trade that brought us Melancon. Melancon was the big part of the trade that brought us Holt. 

     

    The trade on July 31, 1997 that sent Slocumb to Seattle for Varitek and Lowe not only helped us win rings in 2004 and 2007, when Lowe left to free agency, we ended up getting Craig Hansen & Michael Bowden. Hansen was part of the Manny for Bay trade, and Bowden brought us Marlon Byrd. I wish we had kept Byrd, and Jason bay's departure to free agency brought us Brentz & Workman.

     

    In a 2009 waiver wire deal, the Sox sent Cris Carter (Not that one) and Eddie Lora to the Mets for Billy Wagner. After Wagner left to free agency, we got Anthony Ranaudo with one of the comp picks (Vitek was the other).

     

    Giving up Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr in 2007 for Pedro Martinez was certainly one of our all time best trades. Pedro gave fans many fine years, including what I believe to be the most dominating 7 years any starting pitcher has ever had when compared to his peers and his era, and a ring in 2004. However, his departure to free agency also brought us Clay Buccholz via a comp pick.

     

    Some poster still complain about the trade of Masterson for 1.3 years of VMart, but VMart almost helped us get over the hump and win another ring, but honestly, I would not trade the comp picks we got for VMart for Masterson straight up: Henry Owens and Matt Barnes.

     

    We didn't get Adrian Beltre via the trade route, but after getting one spectacular year from him at a relatively low cost, we ended up drafting Swihart and JBJ with the comp picks gained by his departure. And, who knows if Brian Johnson might outshine Papelbon's end of career numbers.

     

    It's too early to tell on some of these deals, but I think it's interesting to see how deals made long ago can still be making an impact on our current team and the team that may be in the future someday.

     

     

     

    Sox4ever

    [/QUOTE]

    Just like the Cam Neely trade connects to Milan Lucic.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Not all trades work out for the good, but...

     

    looking through past Sox transactions and drafts, I can't help but notice how some trades just seem to keep on giving and giving...

     

    The Nomar for Cabrera deal not only helped us win our ring in 2004, losing Cabrera to free agency after 2004 gave us the comp picks that ended up being Ellsbury and Lowrie. Ellsbury helped us win a ring in 07 and 13, then losing him to free agency allowed us to draft Michael Kopech with the 33rd pick. Lowrie was the big part of the trade that brought us Melancon. Melancon was the big part of the trade that brought us Holt. 

     

    The trade on July 31, 1997 that sent Slocumb to Seattle for Varitek and Lowe not only helped us win rings in 2004 and 2007, when Lowe left to free agency, we ended up getting Craig Hansen & Michael Bowden. Hansen was part of the Manny for Bay trade, and Bowden brought us Marlon Byrd. I wish we had kept Byrd, and Jason bay's departure to free agency brought us Brentz & Workman.

     

    In a 2009 waiver wire deal, the Sox sent Cris Carter (Not that one) and Eddie Lora to the Mets for Billy Wagner. After Wagner left to free agency, we got Anthony Ranaudo with one of the comp picks (Vitek was the other).

     

    Giving up Carl Pavano and Tony Armas Jr in 2007 for Pedro Martinez was certainly one of our all time best trades. Pedro gave fans many fine years, including what I believe to be the most dominating 7 years any starting pitcher has ever had when compared to his peers and his era, and a ring in 2004. However, his departure to free agency also brought us Clay Buccholz via a comp pick.

     

    Some poster still complain about the trade of Masterson for 1.3 years of VMart, but VMart almost helped us get over the hump and win another ring, but honestly, I would not trade the comp picks we got for VMart for Masterson straight up: Henry Owens and Matt Barnes.

     

    We didn't get Adrian Beltre via the trade route, but after getting one spectacular year from him at a relatively low cost, we ended up drafting Swihart and JBJ with the comp picks gained by his departure. And, who knows if Brian Johnson might outshine Papelbon's end of career numbers.

     

    It's too early to tell on some of these deals, but I think it's interesting to see how deals made long ago can still be making an impact on our current team and the team that may be in the future someday.

     

     

     

    Sox4ever

    [/QUOTE]


    in 30 seconds you've already proved you'd be a better GM than Brian "Cash"-man........

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    in 30 seconds you've already proved you'd be a better GM than Brian "Cash"-man........

    I didn't make these deals; I just reported on the lingering aspects of some deals that are often forgotten or not factored into the total equation of some transactions.

    I'm hoping any moves we make in the next few weeks also have far-reaching aspects.

    Sox4ever

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    I was certain that Kevin Bacon was going to come out in this thread at some point...

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gifts That Just Keep on Giving

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I was certain that Kevin Bacon was going to come out in this thread at some point...

    As always - 100% correct!

     [/QUOTE]


    Good one, geo!

     

    I realize some of these connections are stretching it, since other players were added in trades, but it is interesting to see that some trades are still giving more than a decade after the deal and years after the players involved have retired.

     
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