The Gold Glove is a Joke

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]Jete is one of the worst fielding SSs of all time who played so many seasons. Palmeiro won it one year by playing something like 10 games at 1B that year.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Worst fielding SS's of all time, get real.  I agree that he is not GG worthy, especially at this stage of his career, but worst of all time, give me a break. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke : There are no "hidden" Yankee fans, especially hanging out on a Sox board in the off-season. ADG is a master at creating inflammatory threads. Not usually the MO of a Sox fan on a Sox board. For all I know, he could be you. Btw, how's that Colon investigation going? I haven't heard anything yet. I guess Torre is too busy investigating beer in the Sox clubhouse. At least he's got his priorities straight. Beer=bad, Steroids=Not so bad. Nothing like having a manager of steroid users as V.P. of Operations of MLB, right?
    Posted by kimsaysthis[/QUOTE]

    LOL, he's just following the precedent set by the Mitchell report. And, FWIW, Torre could have been the next RS Mgr; however, apparently he feels he's too old to deal with the hassle.

    Those in glass houses shouldn't cast the first stone; we're still waiting after 2 yrs to find out what Big Papi has tested positive for.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    "One of their conclusions was that Jeter was probably the least effective defensive player in the major leagues, at any position."

    "Probably" is not much of a conclusion. Looks like the college scouting report for Joe Montana. Pure nonsense, in the context of Jeter's total career.

    For players on an MLB roster for more than 5 years, Wakefield is the least effective pitcher in MLB history. Too bad the Pirates didn't keep him to provide run support. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke : Sorry moonslav, while Jeter has some limitations, that's a bunch of BS.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]


    It's the truth. A SS with severely limited range is not any good.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke : Worst fielding SS's of all time, get real.  I agree that he is not GG worthy, especially at this stage of his career, but worst of all time, give me a break
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    I said "one of the worst" not "the worst".

    I said out of SSs who have played "so many games", meaning our of SSs who have played FT for over 10-12 seasons at SS.

    Just because he makes the highlight reels due to playing in NY, is a great hitting SS and leader, does not make him even a average fielding SS.

    Funny how softy won't say a catcher makes a difference in weather a pitcher (or team) wins or not, but gives credit for the Yanks rings and Jet'e HOF likelyhood to Jete's fielding.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    Kim,

    How did your response to my statement appear before my actual response? Now this is a mystery. I wonder if Torre can look into this.

    Really, you are back on Colon now? He of the 7.00 ERA in the last two months of the season. And this you want to complain about?  Speaking of inflammatory threads and comments. He never tested positive for anything but obesity and high Cholesterol.

    As for Torre - not as bad as having the PEDs/steroid MLB investigation led by a board member of a team with steroid users. But let's not allow truth infiltrate your take on things. I can almost guarantee that Torre's investigatio in the Sox issues involved one or two phone calls and then a cold beer with Henry. The investigation was fueled by the Boston press, not some kind of conspiracy.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke : It's the truth. A SS with severely limited range is not any good.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    NO, it's your TRUTH. Right, he's not any good. Not that, LOL, recent RS SS have been so good. Also, Jim Leyland, a pretty respected authority, claims SS range is overrated. And, since he used to be very fast, his range is not as bad as some of these defective new fangled metrics purport him to be. (Regardless, he was never good going to his left, and now that he's no longer a gazelle, he's worse lately). However, to wit:

    1) How about the 'flip' play? How many guys would have done that?
    2) The plant & leap "deep in the hole" plays, which he basically invented? (Admittedly, he had to.)
    3) The arm?
    4) His awareness, presence, and throws on relays in general, for example, the two he made vs your RS in the '99 PS? 
    5) The High F PCT?
    6) His DP pivot?
    7) When was the last time he made a mental error? They're few & far between.
    8) The intangibles?
    9) At the beginning of the year, many RS fans here claim that Scutaro this yr was better than Jeter. While IMO Scutaro has a pretty good stick (even against MO); you think given Jeter's 2nd half that's still the case?
    10) And of course: The rings for an entire hand? You think the Yankees would have won those without him?

    He's a first balloter, lest you try to shoot holes thru that.

    Also, IMO, with the exception of last year, he deserved those 4 other GGs.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke : I said "one of the worst" not "the worst". I said out of SSs who have played "so many games", meaning our of SSs who have played FT for over 10-12 seasons at SS. Just because he makes the highlight reels due to playing in NY, is a great hitting SS and leader, does not make him even a average fielding SS. Funny how softy won't say a catcher makes a difference in weather a pitcher (or team) wins or not, but gives credit for the Yanks rings and Jet'e HOF likelyhood to Jete's fielding.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I don't dispute Jeter's limited range, his back hand jump throw is a play a lot of SS simply get in front of and Jeter has never been great going up the middle.  I don't consider him an elite defensive SS but I'm inclined to evaluate the whole player and in that evaluation I could never consider Jeter "one of the worst" SS.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke : I don't dispute Jeter's limited range, his back hand jump throw is a play a lot of SS simply get in front of and Jeter has never been great going up the middle.  I don't consider him an elite defensive SS but I'm inclined to evaluate the whole player and in that evaluation I could never consider Jeter "one of the worst" SS.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Assessment of Jeter's defense is clearly a 2 sided coin.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In a way, both sides have a point.

    He was the most sure handed SS in MLB 2008 and probably many other years. On the other hand, he had the worst range (by a large margin) of all SS 2006 to 2008.  He also has low assist totals many years, 61 below the average SS in 2010.

    http://riveraveblues.com/2009/03/fielding-bible-jeters-defense-revisited-9558/

    Jeter’s strength, according to James’s system, is his ability to cleanly field balls he reaches. He led all shortstops last year with just 17 defensive misplays in 1,259 innings at short. Even when you count errors — which James claims were not counted in Defensive Misplays, so there’s no doubling up — Jeter comes out as the best shortstop in the majors.

    This puts Jeter’s Gold Gloves in a bit better context. After all, it’s easier to see plays that were made than those that weren’t. It might not be easy for an observer to see all the balls Jeter doesn’t get to. Routine grounder through the hole for a single, one might think. That’s an easy observation to make, since it’s difficult to determine whether Jeter should have gotten to the ball or, even more difficultly, if one of Jeter’s peers would have cleanly fielded the grounder. Because he’s so good on the balls he does get to, that’s translated into playing good defense, hence the Gold Gloves.

    When it comes to range, we know that Jeter doesn’t get much respect. If you check out his UZR you’ll see that since 2003 he’s ranged from slightly below average to freaking atrocious (namely 2005 and 2007). Last year he was just below average by that metric. Since this is a Fielding Bible review, we’ll also look at Dewan’s plus/minus system. That one’s a bit harsher on Jeter, rating him a -9 (-8 for fielding, -1 for his double play turning). That puts him fourth lowest among qualifying shortstops, besting only Yuniesky Betancourt (another guy who reputedly plays good D), Jeff Keppinger, and David Eckstein. During the three years from 2006 through 2008, Jeter ranks dead last at -50 — and it’s not even close.

    http://www.theyankeeu.com/2010/11/addressing-defensive-metrics-and-derek-jeter-22917 In 2010, Yankee shortstops made 211 putouts, relative to a league average of 241. Now, some putouts are based on your other fielders, particularly the ones that deal with force plays on throws from other fielders. However, Yankees SS graded out just fine on putouts on force plays, with 107 relative to an average of 102. The problem was on balls caught (88 relative to a 114 average) and tag plays (17 relative to a 26 average), which are more directly attributable to the SS itself. Looking at assists, which are likely a better measure of how many balls the SS is getting to with the ability to then make a play, shows a similar issue, as Yankee shortstops had 405 relative to a league average of 466.

    This is not a new issue. Yankee shortstops have been below league average in these areas for EVERY SEASON in the Jeter era other than 2005, and were well below average in most years. This despite the fact that the defenders surrounding Derek were usually around average in these areas, suggesting that it was not the pitchers or other conditions that created this deficiency. These are not advanced metrics, they are very basic stats that simply tell us how many plays the guy makes. Is it perfect? No. But neither is fielding percentage, and this serves to poke a giant hole into the fielding percentage argument.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    Jeter goes back on balls into the OF as well, if not better than any SS I have ever seen (back in his prime).

    This conversation is silly. And Moon - I really am surprised but some of your comments. I watch him play 162 games a year; in his prime is was an excellent SS and deserved a couple of his GG's - although, certainly not all of them.
     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaffyDan. Show DaffyDan's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    Jeter's career defensive war (dWar) is -14.7. 

    That is the definition of below average. 

    -14.7 below average to be exact. 


    -Daf. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]Gold Glove finalist Asdrubal Cabrera ranks dead last in UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) among qualified shortstops.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Thank you. My point exactly.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]Zone ratings are a big pile of dog crap. Anyone watching Cabrera play shortstop this year, knows that if he was the worst in the AL, then something stinks with the ratings. Believe what your eyes tell you, not some computer geeks who've never played the game.
    Posted by GhostofTito[/QUOTE]

    And my eyes told me that Youkilis was horrible.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]In Response to The Gold Glove is a Joke : With all the bad Gold Glove awards that have been given out over the years, and the bad Gold Glove nominations made this year, I'm sure at many positions, that's the one that bothers you the most? Interesting.
    Posted by kimsaysthis[/QUOTE]

    Who said it bothered me the most? I'm responding to the Red Sox nominees and the fact that Youkilis was horrible in the field this year. 

    And again, where do I say that the Youkilis nomination bothers me the most? Oh yeah, your false interpretation.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    He's a first balloter, lest you try to shoot holes thru that.

    I'd vote him in based on his offense and leadership only.

    Sorry, Moonslob. Jeter goes into the HOF as the Yankees SS. SS is a defensive position and Jeter has played it very well. Very soft hands and makes the big players under pressure. Jeter is in his final years, but his place as a great SS are secure. Moonslob's place as an absurd poster are also secure.  
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrh1194. Show jrh1194's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    Jeters best years are definitely in the past. It would be a total joke if he were to be considered for the GG this year. As the original poster stated, Youk being a candidate for a Gold Glove this year is also a joke.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    NO, it's your TRUTH. Right, he's not any good.

    Glad you agree.

    Not that, LOL, recent RS SS have been so good.

    This has nothing to do with me being a Sox fan. I'd take Gardner's fielding over any current Sox OF'er. Jete is a bad fielding SS. No ifs ands or buts.

    Also, Jim Leyland, a pretty respected authority, claims SS range is overrated.
     
    Even if it is over-rated, that doesn't mean it has no value, and being last in range is not what Jim had in mind.

    And, since he used to be very fast, his range is not as bad as some of these defective new fangled metrics purport him to be. (Regardless, he was never good going to his left, and now that he's no longer a gazelle, he's worse lately).

    Yes, years ago, he may have been close to average 

    However, to wit:

    1) How about the 'flip' play? How many guys would have done that?

    I once saw a big fat guy make a great catch in softball. 

    2) The plant & leap "deep in the hole" plays, which he basically invented? (Admittedly, he had to.)

    I wasn't fooled by Nomah's un-needed twists and turns either.

    3) The arm?

    Not bad.

    4) His awareness, presence, and throws on relays in general, for example, the two he made vs your RS in the '99 PS? 

    You are reaching. I never said a poor fielder can't go to the right spot on a cut-off position and make a good play from time to time.

    5) The High F PCT?

    Flg% is one of the most over-rated stats in all of MLB.
    Jete gets the home calls.

    6) His DP pivot?

    Jeter has a negative DP rating over the last 5 years.


    7) When was the last time he made a mental error? They're few & far between.

    They don't show those on ESPN.

    8) The intangibles?

    You mean like the worst range in MLB?
    This isn't about the hitting.

    9) At the beginning of the year, many RS fans here claim that Scutaro this yr was better than Jeter. While IMO Scutaro has a pretty good stick (even against MO); you think given Jeter's 2nd half that's still the case?

    I never said Scutty was great, but as bad as Scutty is in the field (esp range), he's been better than Jete for years. I knew you'd bring hitting into the argument: everyone who argues about his fielding brings hitting into the argument, because they have nothing concrete on defense, except the votes of senile sports writers.

    10) And of course: The rings for an entire hand? You think the Yankees would have won those without him?

    Julio Lugo has a ring. Does that mean he was a great fielder in 2007?

    Great SS hitting and WS rings does not turn him from a bad fielder into a good one.


    He's a first balloter, lest you try to shoot holes thru that.

    I'd vote him in based on his offense and leadership only.

    Also, IMO, with the exception of last year, he deserved those 4 other GGs.

    He deserves none. Not even close... ever.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]NO, it's your TRUTH. Right, he's not any good . Glad you agree. Not that, LOL, recent RS SS have been so good. This has nothing to do with me being a Sox fan. I'd take Gardner's fielding over any current Sox OF'er. Jete is a bad fielding SS. No ifs ands or buts. Also, Jim Leyland, a pretty respected authority, claims SS range is overrated.   Even if it is over-rated, that doesn't mean it has no value, and being last in range is not what Jim had in mind. And, since he used to be very fast, his range is not as bad as some of these defective new fangled metrics purport him to be. (Regardless, he was never good going to his left, and now that he's no longer a gazelle, he's worse lately). Yes, years ago, he may have been close to average   However, to wit: 1) How about the 'flip' play? How many guys would have done that? I once saw a big fat guy make a great catch in softball.  2) The plant & leap "deep in the hole" plays, which he basically invented? (Admittedly, he had to.) I wasn't fooled by Nomah's un-needed twists and turns either. 3) The arm? Not bad. 4) His awareness, presence, and throws on relays in general, for example, the two he made vs your RS in the '99 PS?  You are reaching. I never said a poor fielder can't go to the right spot on a cut-off position and make a good play from time to time. 5) The High F PCT? Flg% is one of the most over-rated stats in all of MLB. Jete gets the home calls. 6) His DP pivot? Jeter has a negative DP rating over the last 5 years. 7) When was the last time he made a mental error? They're few & far between. They don't show those on ESPN. 8) The intangibles? You mean like the worst range in MLB? This isn't about the hitting. 9) At the beginning of the year, many RS fans here claim that Scutaro this yr was better than Jeter. While IMO Scutaro has a pretty good stick (even against MO); you think given Jeter's 2nd half that's still the case? I never said Scutty was great, but as bad as Scutty is in the field (esp range), he's been better than Jete for years. I knew you'd bring hitting into the argument: everyone who argues about his fielding brings hitting into the argument, because they have nothing concrete on defense, except the votes of senile sports writers. 10) And of course: The rings for an entire hand? You think the Yankees would have won those without him? Julio Lugo has a ring. Does that mean he was a great fielder in 2007? Great SS hitting and WS rings does not turn him from a bad fielder into a good one. He's a first balloter, lest you try to shoot holes thru that. I'd vote him in based on his offense and leadership only. Also, IMO, with the exception of last year, he deserved those 4 other GGs. He deserves none. Not even close... ever.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Well, it sounds like we're not going to agree. FWIW, I really didn't bring hitting into it, except the point about his good 2nd half. If you think Scutaro's better in the field, then good luck with that. As far as the rings are concerned, you diverted on the theme, so to get back on point; the RS would have won in '07 without Lugo (and they're lucky he didn't hurt); the 5 championships/7 pennants the Yankees won during Jeter's career, like I said before, would not have been possible without Jeter; including his contributions on defense.

    As far as the flip play is concerned; it was just no random beer league play (In fact, he made 2 great plays in that series), or Torre wouldn't have contributed a detailed analysis of it in his book, where he blasted most everyone else.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]Zone ratings are a big pile of dog crap. Anyone watching Cabrera play shortstop this year, knows that if he was the worst in the AL, then something stinks with the ratings. Believe what your eyes tell you, not some computer geeks who've never played the game.
    Posted by GhostofTito[/QUOTE]

    The problem with the “believe your eyes” crowd is most of the time, they don’t see a player play that often, or don’t see enough of the competition.  The occasional Web Gem does not make him a good fielder. 

    I live in an AL Central city and what I saw of Cabrera was mostly fairly mediocre, and certainly nothing to get excited about.  I probably saw him more often than any other regular poster on this board, and even I only saw him a few times..

    But if we are going to “believe our eyes”, what did your eyes tell you about Asdrubal Cabrera that made him a better defensive shortstop than JJ Hardy or Brendan Ryan? Who did your eyes tell you was the worst defensive SS in the AL and who was the best? 

    And what level of professional experience did you (or anyone with a similar complaint) achieve as a baseball player that makes you a better judge of defense than computer geeks who “never played the game”?  If you are going to state that playing the game is so vital to judging defense, it should be important to quantify your experiences, right?  And it should also be important to clue us in on how you know the computer geeks never played the game.  For what it’s worth, the data on Fangraphs – the primary source of UZR - is supplied by MLB, not an outsider with a renegade algorithm and a lot of spare time.  I’d think MLB probably employs people with some knowledge of baseball, even if it all comes from OJT.

    Most fans who call for the “use your eyes” see only one or two players per position all season, and base everything on that.  “He played well, so he cannot be the worst.”  And of course, there is a bias to the eyes and a forgetfulness when it comes to deciding what play was worth judging and what was worth forgetting, and what play we all like to decide that “no other player could have made that play.”  This is a great defense used on both good and bad plays as either justification for great defense or excusing poor ones.  But the bottom line is, these are all guesses, at best.

    I like UZR because it eliminates all biases and takes every player into account, something I will never be able to do on my own, and neither will you, or Bill James, or any scout in history.. I think the UZR system is flawed, but it is far better than watching one shortstop all year and catching a few Web Gems and forming an opinion about the entire league based on ridiculously limited information. 

    I’m not sure what you know about UZR, but for infielders, it actually is a fairly decent system.  It is much worse with outfielders, where it assumes large volumes give equal distributions of height for fly balls, and in the past has been known to not compensate for giant walls such as the Green Monster - that keep balls in play.  Some correction has been done with the latter.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    Well, it sounds like we're not going to agree.

    Yeah, we won't, but I repsect you nh. You made some good points.

    No biggie, I really didn't bring hitting into it, except the point about his good 2nd half. If you think Scutaro's better in the field, then good luck with that.

    Better than horrible is not bragging.

    As far as the rings are concerned, you did a little double talk, so to get back on point; the RS would have won in '07 without Lugo (and the're lucky he didn't hurt); the 5 championships/7 pennants the Yankees won during Jeter's career, like I said before, would not have been possible without Jeter; including his contributions on defense.

    The Ynaks won despite Jete's fielding, the same as the Sox did in 2007. Actually, Lugo had good range in 2007 though.

    As far as the flip play is concerned; it was just no beer league play, or Torre wouldn't have contributed a detailed analysis of it in his book, and, as I quote "The internal calculus involved could have not been done by anyone else".

    I kinda liked Scutty's flip this year, but it wasn't in the big game, so it doesn't count.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    In Response to Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke:
    [QUOTE]Well, it sounds like we're not going to agree. Yeah, we won't, but I repsect you nh. You made some good points. No biggie, I really didn't bring hitting into it, except the point about his good 2nd half. If you think Scutaro's better in the field, then good luck with that. Better than horrible is not bragging. As far as the rings are concerned, you did a little double talk, so to get back on point; the RS would have won in '07 without Lugo (and the're lucky he didn't hurt); the 5 championships/7 pennants the Yankees won during Jeter's career, like I said before, would not have been possible without Jeter; including his contributions on defense. The Ynaks won despite Jete's fielding, the same as the Sox did in 2007. Actually, Lugo had good range in 2007 though. As far as the flip play is concerned; it was just no beer league play, or Torre wouldn't have contributed a detailed analysis of it in his book, and, as I quote "The internal calculus involved could have not been done by anyone else". I kinda liked Scutty's flip this year, but it wasn't in the big game, so it doesn't count.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Actually, I take the opposite tack with my Yankee fan brother, who gets irritated with me when I mention his postage stamp range.

    The Jeter debate is very common; if you ever watched Curb Your Enthusiam, it was covered in the episode where he kills a swan; hilarious.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    I used to argue with my brother-in-laws about how bad Nomar was at fielding SS. They thought just because he could pirouette like a ballerina in the hole, that somehow made him good. It didn't. Others made those plays routinely and then some.

    (At least they agreed with me on Mike "I'll pick the ball up when it stops rolling" Greenwell.)

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: The Gold Glove is a Joke

    What about Carl Crawford? He won last year didn't he?  Give it to him again it's a joke award.
     
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